Romanticizing our military

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Romanticizing our military

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think in terms of missions and the application of military force, there's a lot of nobility in the US Army still... but it's a matter of who serves as to the quality of those within it...

So, Roper, do you think John Kerry was right?

--Ray

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Roper wrote:

From Mr. Card's latest Civ Watch essay:

1. America's brilliant, brave, and well-trained military, which projects not just power but decency and compassion wherever our soldiers go

Huh? The military in which I served more resembled the armies of the Nephites in the last years of Book of Mormon history--carnal, sensual, devilish, rejoicing in their own strength, commiting atrocities.

And I served in the Air Force, arguably the most "civil" branch of service.

When the news of Abu Ghraib broke, I was surprised--surprised that it took so long to come to light. I expected it. And crap like that is much more common than we want to believe. Again, the recent story of the US soldier who raped a teen girl then murdered her and her family, while other unit members did nothing to stop it--not surprising.

I will always be grateful for the sacrifices made in defense of our country. And I will always be grateful for the oppoprtunity I had to serve.

However, this romantic image of a military made up of decent and compassionate soldiers--gentleman soldiers, so to speak--is a fantasy fashioned for public consumption.

My brother serves in the airforce. Not a member of the church, but a family man. I am not sure where you served or how or in what capacity or in what unit, but I think it is a bit insulting to insinuate that our solders are carnal and sensual. There are many many latter-day saints who serve. There are many many men of good moral standing who are not latter day saints that serve. I would go so far as the vast majority.

Let me take it a step further. After a 20 years in the military, he is both married and having served in such places as Japan and Iraq, I can tell you from not only his character but the character of the marines I know in places like Camp Pendleton that they are by the vast majority gentlemen who care about their nation and even care about those they protect, which includes Iraqis. I am not big on romantic images, but coming from a family whose generations are inculcated into the military I would say that you are definately barking up the wrong tree.

I suggest you educate yourself somewhat. Read the article "How Americans Fight" by Colin Kahl. He is Assistant Professor of Political Science at the U of Minn. (definately not a bastion of conservatism). He conducted research at the department of defense for the Council of Foriegn Relations.

"And yet despite some dark spots on its record, the US military has done a better job of respecting noncombatant immunity in Iraq than is commonly believed. Over the past year, I have conducted dozens of interviews with commanders, judge advocates, and others who have served in Iraq; investigated operational "lessons learned" during a recent trip to Baghdad; observed the predeployment training of forces; and extensively reviewed unclassified Pentagon documents, official and unofficial histories, troops' memoirs and blogs, and human rights reports. I have found not only that the US compliance with noncombatant immunity in Iraq is relatively high by historical standards, but also that is has been improving since the beginning of the war."

Abu Gharib is actually what has been presented for public consumption. And you bought it, hook line and sinker.

Come out of your fantasy world. The military isn't made up of ignorant bullying hateful conscripts as you imply. Its made up of Latter-Day Saints and others who come from the American mainstream. If you believe they are all like the psuedo lesbian guards sadistic psychos that were jailers in Abu Gharib (for the entire military), then you have a warped view, not of the military, but of the United States.

-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 08:04, 2006-11-08

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

America's brilliant, brave, and well-trained military, which projects not just power but decency and compassion wherever our soldiers go

An accurate statement. They are brave, they are well trained, and they are decent men and women who try to do the right thing. And some of them are brilliant too.

Romantacized is assuming that what they do is easy. It isn't.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

With all due respect Jeff, Roper is a retired Air Force officer... Unless you yourself served, I would venture to say he has seen more than you with regards to the type of character a fair number of folks within the military have.

As you stated in the Jefferson thread, facts are facts. And we civilians do tend to romanticize the military and military personel in general. Why? Because there is such a social and political sense that it is our duty as citizens and a nation to take care of our veterans... We all want to think every veteran is like the characters portrayed by John Wayne.

Personally, I would hate to think that our military is anywhere comparable to that of the Nephites in that civilization's winding down period. But, who knows. Maybe the fact it is an all volunteer organization could contribute to it. Only those who fit a certain discrete array of mind sets will actually look to joining up?

Are there good people that serve either a short period or career? Sure. A lot of the guys I grew up with in my ward did / or maybe still are serving. But, you also get a lot of people that do not have the best of morals that do the same thing. From what I've heard, the military trains folks to be soldiers. Any of that training that may influence or rub off on them becoming better, more righteous people is probably incidental at best. I remember back in the mid '80's as a missionary serving in Germany, many of the US enlisted grades I came across were not individuals that could be considered our nation's best and brightest examples of virtue.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The majority of members of my ward are either current or retired military. They are good decent people. Folks like at Abu Grab and other scandals are the exception, not the rule. We lost a Marine in our ward, a young man who had just become an elder. I think your view of our military men and women Roper is dead wrong.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

The concept of our military is indeed noble: As a whole we adhere to the Law of Armed conflict and the Geneva Conventions which are designed to ensure that we conduct warfare in a principled way.

Additionally, there are decent and principled women and men who serve. And the LDS members I have had the privelege of serving with are shining examples.

There's a philosophy among military members that's stated like this: What goes on TDY (temporary duty or deployment) stays on TDY *wink wink* It means that when stuff happens away from home, nobody talks about it when we get back. I have observed most of my unit members, who were good mothers and fathers, good citizens, good Christians, become exactly as I said--carnal, sensual, and devilish--during deployments, especially in the Persian Gulf three years ago.

Brilliant? Some. I've seen brilliance displayed from high-level decisions about strategies to an aircraft mechanic improvising a new strap to help keep the flight deck armor in place during maneuvering.

Brave? Maybe. Most of that I would call desensitization to the horrors of war.

Well trained? Definitely. After the Israelis, the best in the world.

Decent and compassionate? A very rare few. My own belief is this: The only reason our military doesn't get destroyed by our enemies is that those very rare few valiantly serve and try desperately to lift those around them.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Sure there are good and bad people in the military, as in any organization. But I believe the US military, as a whole, as a group, is one of the great forces for good in the world today.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

fear of shiz wrote:

I believe the US military, as a whole, as a group, is one of the great forces for good in the world today.

The US military, as a whole, as a group, is an extension of policy, good or bad. It is our big stick through which we enforce our political will.

Calling it a "great force for good" is, I believe, misguided.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Roper wrote:

The concept of our military is indeed noble: As a whole we adhere to the Law of Armed conflict and the Geneva Conventions which are designed to ensure that we conduct warfare in a principled way.

Additionally, there are decent and principled women and men who serve. And the LDS members I have had the privelege of serving with are shining examples.

There's a philosophy among military members that's stated like this: What goes on TDY (temporary duty or deployment) stays on TDY *wink wink* It means that when stuff happens away from home, nobody talks about it when we get back. I have observed most of my unit members, who were good mothers and fathers, good citizens, good Christians, become exactly as I said--carnal, sensual, and devilish--during deployments, especially in the Persian Gulf three years ago.

Brilliant? Some. I've seen brilliance displayed from high-level decisions about strategies to an aircraft mechanic improvising a new strap to help keep the flight deck armor in place during maneuvering.

Brave? Maybe. Most of that I would call desensitization to the horrors of war.

Well trained? Definitely. After the Israelis, the best in the world.

Decent and compassionate? A very rare few. My own belief is this: The only reason our military doesn't get destroyed by our enemies is that those very rare few valiantly serve and try desperately to lift those around them.

Not sure where you are getting your TDY philosophy from. My brother spend four years in Japan, with is family. My other brother spent several years in Germany.

Using a recent Vegas commercial to articulate the position that our military are immoral outside the US does not make it so.

I am sorry that you feel so few Americans are decent and compassionate, I would assume your projection upon others of their lack of compassion may be more a fault on your part rather than your judgement of others.

Finally it is ignorant to assume desensitizing is akin to bravery or mistaken for such. Bravery is doing the right thing, even when you are afraid. You may want to understand the word better before you use it in the future. Perhaps in the airforce you have never experienced fear or personal risk (funny though my brother in Iraq had, maybe your experience is a rear enchelon position rather than those who actually risk something, perhaps you intimate that those in the rear have a lower moral standing than those in the front? Not sure).

Your own belief, in effect, reflects your own attitude. Think about that.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper wrote:

There's a philosophy among military members that's stated like this: What goes on TDY (temporary duty or deployment) stays on TDY *wink wink* It means that when stuff happens away from home, nobody talks about it when we get back. I have observed most of my unit members, who were good mothers and fathers, good citizens, good Christians, become exactly as I said--carnal, sensual, and devilish--during deployments, especially in the Persian Gulf three years ago.

...

Decent and compassionate? A very rare few. My own belief is this: The only reason our military doesn't get destroyed by our enemies is that those very rare few valiantly serve and try desperately to lift those around them.

That sounds so much like what a young Army officer told me once in Germany. I was on a split and got to help teach the man one time. He was a couple years older than us (literally, he was in his early twenties) and I think he was a West Point graduate. He was an evangelical christian, and even though we were "Mormon missionaries", he was tickled pink to just be able to talk with some good people who believed in Christ because of all the filth he was exposed to on a daily basis from his men and peers. He said to the effect that what the military needed was more good christian people to be there to help counter the wicked influences.

That got me thinking seriously (until my Dad talked some reason into me through a letter) about joining the Army ROTC once I got back to BYU. I could become an Army officer and continue to bring souls to Christ!

I agree that probably 99% of the LDS folks that serve in the military represent some of the finest souls there are, particularly when they are able to stay true to the gospel and exercise the faith and strength necessary to not give into the various temptations that get presented in the course of the service. I look at them very much like our modern day Captain Moroni's.

I think it is probably just natural to want to extend and project that feeling across to everyone who serves, whether it is deserved or not. And that is the romanticizing... Just like the romantic tales that get/got told of men like George Armstrong Custer (who could very well -- and probably more aptely -- be described as a man who quickly changed to where he lived to and loved to shed blood) to grade school kids...

Again, while Roper is by no means the final word on it, I would defer to him as at least a finite SME on the topic as he has had specific experience that none of the rest of us who have not served have.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

I see worse by non military abroad than I have ever seen by the military. But I will not say every tourist is immoral or even make such a broad brush statement. Nor do I romanticize tourism.

I accept the fact there are people who do not do as they should, but I cannot accept the idea that all or even a majority of the people from the US, once abroad leave their ideals and morals at home.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:

I see worse by non military abroad than I have ever seen by the military. But I will not say every tourist is immoral or even make such a broad brush statement. Nor do I romanticize tourism.

I accept the fact there are people who do not do as they should, but I cannot accept the idea that all or even a majority of the people from the US, once abroad leave their ideals and morals at home.

Well, I can say the same thing concerning tourists vs. military. Equally as embarrasing and reason to be ashamed as a nation... there is a reason why a lot of the rest of the world views Americans in general as loud, brash, and disrespectful of other cultures. But, I don't think it is therefore necessarily relevant to what Roper was getting at.

The second paragraph does though. If he actually saw it in his unit, regardless of if you or I believe it, the question would actually be "Why would people do that?" Why would people put into a situation of being deployed to a theatre of war seemingly level ideals and morals at home? The possible answer to that is perhaps the more frightening when compared to The Nephites... could it be that they do not have a true faith or hope? Could it be that they are taking more the attitude of sleeping on their swords, being ready to curse God and die? Eat, drink, and be merry; for tomorrow we die?

Let's try and focus in on the topic, gents, and not move into attacks on one another's character. No hitting below the belt, okay? Besides, I think all the protection is still over in the Jock Strap thread...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

A few illustrations (of many) that might be unique to my experience, but I don't think so.

Nellis AFB outside Las Vegas: We were there for Red Flag, a multi-national combat exercise. Billeting on base was full, so we were at a hotel downtown. Our report time for the following morning had been delayed for four hours because of weather. My lieutenant had the duty of coordinating the squadron's work schedules, so I sent him to notify the other members and report back. He knocked on my door at about 10:30 pm. I invited him in and asked him to wait briefly while I finished a telephone conversation with my wife. When I was done, he started laughing. He said, "This is like an alternate universe. Two doors down, most of the squadron is in the room drinking beer and watching porn. You're in here drinking a Winnie the Pooh juicebox (the only kind they had at the commisary on base) and talking to your wife. You're weirdin me out here." Most of those guys two doors down had wives and families at home.

Talil Airfield, Southern Iraq: I went there right before OIF to do a security assessment to determine if we could use the field for a re-supply base. I was in the back of a duece-and-a-half with a security detail driving the perimeter. We were all in armor. I had an M-9, the security forces had M-16s. The troops began talking about their sexual exploits with girls back home. I asked them to stop, because I found their conversation offensive. They then began talking about Iraqis, and one of them said, "I'm gonna cap me a couple of them f***ing ragheads before I go home." The sentiment was echoed by all of them, including their lieutenant. I endured that for a few moments, then motioned for the driver to stop. I stood up and said, "This detail will be absolutely silent until we return. You will each carefully observe the perimeter and notice any security gaps. Upon return, you will report your observations to the lieutenant. He will compile a report, along with his recommendations for improvement, and deliver it to me by 1400. Is that clear?" A few troops made the "bullsh** bullsh**" caughing noise. I said, "Let me make this crystal clear. It's not a request. It's an order. Lieutenant, take charge of your troops." The detail was quiet for the remainder of the ride. It's the only time in my career I had to give a direct order.

Masirah AB, off the coast of Oman: Our firefighters got a female airman drunk, then began to take turns having sex with her. They kept giving her alcohol until she passed out. She nearly died from alcohol poisoning. We couldn't send the whole firefighting unit home, because they were the only ones on base.

At Masirah, I met three other LDS members from other units. During the six months we lived in tents there, we met for an hour every Sunday to take the sacrament, read scriptures, and talk about home. On one of those first Sundays, one of them said, "I feel like I am in a cesspool, and it's all I can do to keep my head from going under."

Yeah, I guess I do have a cynical view of our "decent and compassionate" military.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Ok, Roper, point conceded--the military is the tool of American policy.

So, I revise my statement--I think America is one of the greatest forces for good in the world today.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

And your anecdotes are certainly compelling. The military undoubtedly has immoral and indecent people in its ranks, as does the American population as a whole. But I refuse to believe that is representative of the majority, or representative of the Frontline troops. Maybe just the REMFs.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I have a good friend who is a military JAG... he has issues with a certain level of military servants... When I mention the great service of the military or things like that, he rolls his eyes.

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper wrote:

Huh? The military in which I served more resembled the armies of the Nephites in the last years of Book of Mormon history--carnal, sensual, devilish, rejoicing in their own strength, commiting atrocities.

I find this completely believeable, considering that all of humankind behaves this way -- with the possible exception of the atrocities one -- unless they shrug off the natural man and come unto Christ.

-- Edited by bokbadok at 13:10, 2006-11-08

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

fear of shiz wrote:

So, I revise my statement--I think America is one of the greatest forces for good in the world today.

And I wholeheartedly agree! I agree with most of Uncle Orson's essay. I believe that our country has a moral imperative to spread democracy throughout the world and to enable the preaching of the gospel to all nations.

My argument is that Mr. Card portrays the military as brave, decent, and compassionate--a kind-of "knight-in-shining-armor" portrayal, and one that is passionately believed by many people. My experience convinces me that kind of portrayal is inaccurate.

BTW, I wouldn't exactly call combat pilots and first-in security forces REMFs

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Mine is a military family, traveled every year or so. All of my brothers served in different branches. In fact I have lived a good part of my youth in some military bases.

As an adult I interacted and worked with military personnel.

What you are showing me is what people do when they aren't with their families. Now if you state that these military who come from the mainstream America are bad people and that you also believe that most Americans are porn driven when not around their wives and families. Then let it be a discussion about American morals, not simply military morals because the military comes from mainstreet America.

Your aspersions against the military seem tinged with anger. My stance is the military are a large enough sample, and in essence you pretty much state that the US is a porn driven society, at least from you anecdotal description.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

BTW, I wouldn't exactly call combat pilots and first-in security forces REMFs

I would. You fly, drop your load (early if there is radar) and go home. Its different on the ground.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

On the lighter side...

Jeff's comments about pilots reminded me of an amusing story from OIF.

About six months after I got home, I attended a conference where I met a fellow intel officer with whom I had served a few years before. He had been stationed in northern Iraq, and told me about a debrief he had done with an A-10 pilot who got shot down.

The A-10 had been strafing some Iraqi positions ahead of an advancing US light infantry unit. On his last run, the A-10 got hit by an SA-16 (a fairly capable Russian-made shoulder-fired SAM.) The pilot gained as much altitude as possible before catastrophic engine failure, then punched out.

He came down in an open field, and had observed what looked like an enemy convoy on a nearby road. He took shelter in a shallow irrigation ditch, armed with only a 9mm, and listened as the vehicles stopped. Then he heard many footsteps approaching. He had made up his mind he would fight it out and likely be killed rather than be captured.

Suddenly one of the advancing troops called in an unmistakable Southern California accent, "Hey! Pilot dude!" Reasoning that such a call would be impossible from an Iraqi soldier, he smiled, holstered his weapon, and walked out to the waiting US forces.

One of those "brilliant" moments displayed by our military personnel

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/08/D8L9144G0.html

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerrysign.asp

palmon · Senior Member

Roper, when I first read your comments I was really offended. As a veteran, wife of a retired Army officer (20 year service, with most of them with me at his side), daughter of 2 WWII veterans and mother of a sailer- I think I am qualified in responding. As I said, at first I was offended. I have served with, lived in military wards, etc. etc. with great people. The finest there are - BUT LDS people are a very small finite part of the military.

After I completed my service, I joined a reserve unit in SLC. Boy, was I stunned. This unit supposedly had 'leaders' in their home wards - and here they were, discussing the fun they had in SF during the two week training. It wasn't the type you bragged about to Mom, more of the "what happens there, stays there". I transfered to an Air Guard Unit that were, again, mostly LDS and acted the part. I have always believed that those men in that reserve unit were the exception.

Fast forward 30 years. Now we have a society where the youth play computer games simulating grand theft, murder and rape. And the kids that are playing it are not necessarily what we would call "bad" kids. The movies they watch are filled with all sorts of vile things. In our communities, when kids feud it is likely to be with guns.

Maybe Roper is right. Why should we expect kids that come from the backgrounds such as that not to act out in vile ways? Especially if they have not been brought up in homes with strong morals. In our schools now, don't we teach that there is no right or wrong - that it is all relative? Subjective to the situation?

War breaks people down. What they see, what they do -- all of it. If there is not a strong sense of morality, what is left?

Just the other day there were pictures of male soldiers tying a female soldier to a post with duct-tape. It was supposedly in fun - but?

I would like to say that our military was filled with the great and noble. Truthfully, they are filled with the product of our society. What kind of society do we have?

palmon · Senior Member

All that being said, I can understand how our armed forces could be or become as Roper described.

However, I am going to assume that the our armed forces are serving with honor and dignity. What they have seen and gone through - I cannot even imagine. The duty that they are doing is one of honor.

Each airman and soldier that I see, I am in awe of. My heart breaks for them and for the families behind them. For every disgusting story, there are probably countless stories of heroism - like the young man given the highest honor on Veterans day. His parents have lost a great son, but they know that because of him, other parents are not mourning their own. Heroes.

Heroes all until I see the individual evidence against each. And to the Heroes, I bow my head and say, "Thank you."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

palmon,

I think your comments there aptly shows the complexity of the issue Roper brought up.

We do not want to disrespect the memory of those who have sacrificed, suffered, or died -- disrespect those who will continue to be called upon to do so -- be it overseas or on the homefront. Absolutely not.

But does that respect and honor sometimes end up turning everything as far as personal conduct by military personel into some sort of sacred cow? I think that is what the concern is, that perhaps the paradigm is a certain amount of inappropriate behavior is not only expected, but is to be tolerated with a certain wink of the eye simply because the individuals are military.

And since the military does represent a certain cross-section of our society, what then does that say about our society?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

And since the military does represent a certain cross-section of our society, what then does that say about our society?

Exactly. All the bad behavior that some have described I could also describe as occuring where I work, in the industry, among my own customers, etc. There are bad apples in any organization, even the church. Growing up in a military town and knowing a lot of military personell both in and outside the church, I still believe that the majority are good decent people. There are always folks who choose to live up the standards of the world in any business. I could tell you stories about some of the folks I work with that would make your toes curl. On the whole though, the majority are good people.

palmon · Senior Member

I think that is what the concern is, that perhaps the paradigm is a certain amount of inappropriate behavior is not only expected, but is to be tolerated with a certain wink of the eye simply because the individuals are military.

And that is what needs to change. There can be no toleration of inappropriate behavior. I guess that would make the military a draconian society - but then, when you enlist, you hang up many 'rights' by the door. I am thinking to the New York City mayor that cleaned up the city by targeting the small stuff.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

A major problem that our military has is the same as what our college students have... they simply don't know how to recreate without sex and intoxicants. They might be able to maintain orderliness while in class, or on the battlefield (though that's questionable), they don't know how to order their own personal lives, and it's a steep path with dire consequences when they really flub up. We are less tolerant of the hijinx, without providing them with the foundation that there're alternatives.

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

All this talk of military romance has me thinking of the French navy for some reason.....

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

why?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

why?

Well that show the French Navy had back in the 80's with the Captain, gopher, the doctor, and Issach. Ever since then I associate the French Navy with romance.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

:singing:

The Love Boat, soon will be making another run

The Love Boat, promising something for everyone...

I believe Fantasy Island followed. Da plane! Da plane!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Brings back memories of a comedian we heard on evening many years ago about one time he was watching CSPAN...

{Voice over by a couple dry commentators} "In case you have just joined us, Representative Fred Grandy (R) Iowa, is speaking to us concerning the proposed legislation..." "An interesting bit of trivia for you, Representative Grandy was a professional actor prior to being elected to the House." "That is right. He played the part of Gopher on the hit TV show The Love Boat"

The comic then said that was perhaps the stupidest thing for the commentators to say... cuz then he couldn't take Mr. Grandy seriously... And, the commentators kept on coming back and pinging the fact he was one of the stars from The Love Boat... he was half expecting them to say something like:

"Representative Gopher is now deferring the rest of his time to..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Grandy