God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever.

Thomas Jefferson

I see Jefferson's quote as ironic.  As a slave holder who also had relations with his wife's slave, one has to ask the depth of his conviction or the his definition of humanity and who is, or is not allowed to receive gifts from God.  Now as a side note, he did not sleep with Sally Hemming until long after his wife died.  Sally by the way, probably bore a close resemblence to his wife, since she was also her half sister, by way of the father of Jeffersons wife.

I can understand the social mores being what they are, but Washington rose above such social mores and convinced his wife to free the slaves (manumit) upon his death, while Jefferson did not.

Finally, as a Deist, someone who does not believe in an active God that interacts with man, Jefferson's reference to a deity that proffers gifts to man seems somewhat hollow.

 

Knowing history really ruins some things for me, especially quotes.

Is it adultery if your wife is deceased?  Jefferson was a widower...

Some quotes from me:

There's the country of America, which you have to defend, but there's also the idea of America. America is more than just a country, it's an idea. An idea that's supposed to be contagious.  --Bono

I have seen the evidence on the other side, its not that compelling.  Its more like a "this could have happened", but the odds are not very good.  Consider that Sally Hemmings last child carried the chromosome that belonged to Jefferson in 1808.

<<quote>>Shortly after the DNA test results were released in November 1998, the Thomas Jefferson Foundation formed a research committee consisting of nine members of the foundation staff, including four with Ph.D.s. In January 2000, the committee reported its finding that the weight of all known evidence - from the DNA study, original documents, written and oral historical accounts, and statistical data - indicated a high probability that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Eston Hemings, and that he was perhaps the father of all six of Sally Hemings' children listed in Monticello records - Harriet (born 1795; died in infancy); Beverly (born 1798); an unnamed daughter (born 1799; died in infancy); Harriet (born 1801); Madison (born 1805); and Eston (born 1808).<<unquote>>

http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html

http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/jefferson-hemings_report.pdf

There is no counter evidence that is anywhere close to this compelling.

The counter evidence tends to be very very flimsy, stating that "other people" came to Jeffersons Montecello home and were allowed to have their way with his slaves.  Either case makes the quote presented less than honest on the part of Jefferson.

It is not simply the births, but the coordination of births with Jeffersons various return trips to Monticello.

<<quote>>Also, I remain unconvinced that Jefferson was a Deist. He did make attacks on portions of the new testament, and made other statements that indicated that he was not in line with traditional christianity, but that does not a Deist make. If he seems to be professing a belief in a Deity that gives gifts in this quote, I am inclined to believe that was his sincere belief.<<unquote>>

I would disagree.  Jefferson, while a poor speaker, was an excellent writer who did not mind talking out of both sides of his mouth (so to speak) in order to push his own agenda.  Consider how he alienated Washington later in life when he passed rumours that Washington was senile and a bill Washington wanted passed was the result of his senility.  After that point Washington sent a terse letter to Jefferson stating they would never correspond privately again.  Jefferson was known for such political actions.  He and Hamilton were almost continually at odds because both would use the same actions (but for different means).

His "deism" was well documented.  He was heavily influenced by a Scottish teacher that was also a deist.

<<quote>>Besides, you have resorted to a simple ad hominem attack. The essence of the quote holds true, and is in fact what the Lord told the Nephites about this land (be good or you'll be kicked off).<<unquote>>

I assume you are joking about the threat, but let us assume not since there is no real indication.

While I appreciate the threat made because of my disagreement with you, giving the context of a quote is not an ad hominem attack.  The essence of the quote may hold true, but I can also produce some quotes from Hitler whose "essence" may hold true, but whose context leads one to question the veracity of the speaker making it.  That is my point.

Just as Patrick Henry's context adds greater depth to the quote, so does the history of Thomas Jefferson.  I neither deify the founding fathers nor give them the sheen of an immaculate conception.  But I do understand and appreciate their genius, despite their flaws.

So threaten away when I raise the historical context of a quote that may indeed be taken out of context by those who haven't really studied the subject at all.

<<quote>>Do you disregard those portions of Psalms and Proverbs that David is responsible for, even though he later became an adulterer? Even if it were proven that Jefferson was an adulterer (and it has not), he was, in most other things, a great man.
<<unquote>>

It has been proven, enough so that no real argument can be made that would counter what is presented.

Do I disregard Psalms and Proverbs?  Hmmm, I suppose it depends on how much you are willing to accept the word of a murderer and adulterer that did not come to repentance and instead was willing to tear his nation apart rather than admit to his own peccadillios.  Bill Clinton was like David in personality and hubris (but not in ability).  I don't put nearly the importance in Proverbs and Psalms as I do the writing of, Isaiah, or Amos, or Moses and others, who are more worthy of the Lords revelations, and not political figures like David, who were not religious leaders.

Well, I carry a bigger stick... and I use it too!

-- Buggs Bunny

 

Ich bin ein Berliner! (or translated, I am a jelly filled donut!)

--John F. Kennedy

 

My fellow Americans, I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.

--Ronald Reagan

 

What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is.

--Dan Quayle

 

The President has kept all the promises he intended to keep.

-- Clinton aide George Stephanopolous

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

-- John F. Kerry 

(Priceless... :) )

A couple of my favourite quotes which seem to turn off many LDSs:

David O. McKay stated years ago “Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States.”

D&C 98:6: "Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land."

D&C 101:77: "According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh...80: And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose... "

 "I was a strong Democrat until I joined the Church"  Hartman Recktor, Ret'd from the 70, speaking 11/16 in SLC

I do not believe in the doctrine of the greatest good of the greatest number. The only real, dignified, human doctrine is the greatest good of all.

and

The seven blunders that human society commits and cause all the violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, and politics without principles.

- Mohandas Karamchand "Mahatma" Gandhi

"Jesus often named sinners and publicans together.  We have the same two groups today, but we call them re-publicans." - My wonderful father, who voted a straight Democrat ticket in every election and still managed to hold a temple recommend.

"Ich bin ein Berliner!"

-- John F. Kennedy (translation, "I am a jelly filled donut!" spoken in front of the Berlin Wall)

"Mr. Gorbachov, tear down that wall!"

-- Ronald Reagan (translation, "Dudes, you've lost the cold war, so get over it...")