Don't confuse me with the facts...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Don't confuse me with the facts...

arbilad · Head Chef

That's interesting, although it reinforces what I've heard before. People don't like to believe that they've made wrong decisions, and will find justifications.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Wow! Scientific proof for what we normal folk refer to as the "Blah! Blah! Blah!" factor! Whoda thunk!

Interesting... I wonder what the practical application of this knowledge could be. How would it be applied?

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Its one reason I rarely argue with my wife. Even if I win, I lose. Regardless of the facts, whether I am right or wrong, I lose.

She applies the same logic, by the way.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:

Its one reason I rarely argue with my wife. Even if I win, I lose. Regardless of the facts, whether I am right or wrong, I lose.

She applies the same logic, by the way.

She uses the logic that whether you are right or wrong you lose?

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Arguments with ones loved ones are a mixture of logic (logic being a method of thought) and emotion (a different method that doesn't necessarily include thought). My position or argument may be perfect in everyway, but if it angers her, I still lose.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:

Arguments with ones loved ones are a mixture of logic (logic being a method of thought) and emotion (a different method that doesn't necessarily include thought). My position or argument may be perfect in everyway, but if it angers her, I still lose.

Not to presume or imply anything about you and your dear wife, Jeff, as I'm just speaking generally here. I just thought your comment was interesting.

Sometimes, people need to feel anger and the other should not have to feel guilty because they were the catalyst for it. Sometimes, that anger is actually more generated by the "offended" party than by the "offending" party when it occurs in a close relationship. If one uses the ploy of making the other person "lose" simply because of a disagreement of opinion or argument, regardless of fault or merit of a position, then that is really nothing more than a form of emotional manipulation. Sadly, I think there are quite a few people who are not even aware that they do this to others, because it is perhaps so prevelant in our society or it is what they saw growing up.

You've probably seen variations of the ploy used in business relationships too...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Roper wrote:

because my mind's made up.

Research published by Emory shows that when we have a significant emotional attachment to an issue or a vested interest in how "facts" are interpreted and applied, we make decisions based on emotion rather than reasoning. We also ignore or spin facts that illuminate contradictions in our own reasoning.

What if those emotions are driven by the Spirit. Then making the decision based on the emotion rather than reasoning would still be the right answer, wouldn't it?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I guess that depends on whether the spirit speaks to you through emotions or through intellect.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

That raises an interesting discussion.

For instance, the church generally attempts to avoid the "charismatics" of religion, and yet Joseph Smith was indeed a charismatic. Many of the large churches today are built around one or two personalities, and they tend to collapse when those presonalities leave or die. Consider what "charismatics" might have done to the early church. Sidney Rigdon was considered a "charismatic" and was made counselor in the church OVER the objections of Joseph Smith.

Emotion just doesn't carry it and I don't think the spirit is strictly emotion, rather that it is so powerful we are overcome by our emotion and it overlays itself on the prompting.

-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 07:56, 2006-10-18

noel · Veteran Member

Roper,

I think everyone makes decisions emotionally at the most fundamental level. It is the stuff to which rationality is applied.

The test lies not in which comes first, but how emotional responses are sorted, and ordered, when passed through the sieve of rationality. Rationality is the distinguishing, and necessary, feature of human goodness.

I have personally found you to be quite good at passing this test.

-- Edited by noel at 19:28, 2006-10-22

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think emotions would be fine, and the Spirit speaks through emotions. From scriptural records we know God has emotions, so they aren't necessarily bad, but our emotions are not mature like God's. Because of the fall, our emotions are just as likely to be out of whack as our appetites, or physique, morals, or intellect. But our intellect is also fallen. How many "intelligent" men have been deceived due to the fallen nature of man's intellect?

Anyhow that's what I learned from the book Following Christ, by Stephen E. Robinson...

--Ray

noel · Veteran Member

Ray,

Emotion, in isolation, can be neither good nor bad.

Intelligence is not the same as rationality.

As we use the term, intelligence equals wisdom per the Doctrine & Covenants. Wisdom is the rational processing, and just priortizing, of emotional imput. The mystery lies in the foundation of justice.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Whatever the case, they're all fallen. Your ability to reason is not perfect.

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

A tangent but not quite a derail, I think:

The Doctrine and Covenants also provides us with this (definitional?)statement: The Glory of god is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. - D&C 93:36

Can light and truth be communicated and understood through emotion? Or must it always be rational thought?

My proposition is this (I think we discussed this a bit on Nauvoo a while back):

Our Father, through the Holy Ghost, communicates light and truth to us in the way we individually best understand it. For some, that may be a tearful emotional process. For some, it may be a revelatory rational process.

I believe that if someone is emotionally moved by the spirit and then acts on that light and truth they are just as valiant as someone who is intellectually enlightened by the spirit and then acts on that light and truth.

As saints, we tend to devalue the spiritual communication others have because it is not like ours (as if we didn't get enough of that from our detractors outside the church.) And I've observed that the condescending remarks interestingly follow gender stereotypes--men think women are too emotional when they "feel the spirit" and women think men usually don't feel it at all because they are too rational.

I wonder if our Father patiently smiles and waits for us to grasp the concept that it is both and infinitely more.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Very insightful Roper. One of your best posts IMHO. Enjoyed it very much.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper wrote:

As saints, we tend to devalue the spiritual communication others have because it is not like ours (as if we didn't get enough of that from our detractors outside the church.) And I've observed that the condescending remarks interestingly follow gender stereotypes--men think women are too emotional when they "feel the spirit" and women think men usually don't feel it at all because they are too rational.

I wonder how much of being essentially stoical as men when we feel the Spirit is as much a cultural conditioning as it is for us to expect women to "turn on the water works".

I mean, we men all know how the Spirit can work on us to make us essentially "blubbering idiots" who are humble enough to be taught directly by the Spirit when the womens aren't around, even though we try to put on that tough outer appearance, the stiff upper lip thing when in mixed company ... (e.g. there are actually certain songs just in the hymnal that will act as a catalyst for me in that regards). And I'm sure there are a number women who take it to the other extreme and don't feel they are actually bearing testimony unless they go through a box of tissues and have completely wiped off all the mascara and blown their nose a couple times during their monthly "thankyoumony"

arbilad · Head Chef

We have a clear example of cultural conditioning in the Book of Mormon. There people are fainting all the time when they feel the spirit, and they feel secure in their manhood.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

We have a clear example of cultural conditioning in the Book of Mormon. There people are fainting all the time when they feel the spirit, and they feel secure in their manhood.

Good thing they didn't have chick flicks back then, huh?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

What's worse is men aren't very free in our culture to dance like ballerinas... that's a travesty...

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

What's worse is men aren't very free in our culture to dance like ballerinas... that's a travesty...

--Ray

Do you want to watch men dancing like ballerinas?

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

I appreciate a good ballet. But I also appreciate a well done opera.

Wagner's Cycle is definately heavy metal.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I'm definitely uncultured then... I have yet to see a well done opera... okay, I have yet to see any opera, admittedly. I guess it is an art form one has to see live. I remember about a month or so ago, we tried to watch an operatic adaptation of the story of Abinadi on BYU TV. As I understand, it was quite a labor of love and work that had been developed over a number of years by several individuals, and in that regards is quite praiseworthy.

Unfortunately, Mrs. Cat Herder and I couldn't get past about 5 minutes before the natural "Statler and Waldorf" instinct kicked in (you know, the old guy hecklers in the balcony who from the Muppet Show). The kids were bored with it as well. We tried watching it for another 15 minutes or so, but it just wasn't something we could get into.

I have seen some ballet live though. Again, it is definetly an acquired taste in art form appreciation. I do enjoy a well choreographed Nutcracker Suite. But, ballet has nothing on Riverdance-in'... (closest thing to an Irish step dance emoticon I can find)

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Don't feel too bad Cat. I got all excited when I saw what I thought was going to be a play on Abinidai only to change the channel after about 2 minutes. I don't get opera. Of course I also think Shakespear is overrated so I guess I'm just an uncouth hick that didn't get a proper education at the state university.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Abinadi opera was, well, how does one accurately describe fecal matter thrown against a wall and called art?

Let us be positive and state that they sang their hearts out, and their realities and their expectations never came to an agreement.

Opera is not simple, it is complicated and like Shakespeare, it has many different levels of understanding, using music to convey memory and emotion.

You don't just sit down and like Shakespeare, but when you understand it you appreciate it more, and you see subtlties.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:

Abinadi opera was, well, how does one accurately describe fecal matter thrown against a wall and called art?

Let us be positive and state that they sang their hearts out, and their realities and their expectations never came to an agreement.

Opera is not simple, it is complicated and like Shakespeare, it has many different levels of understanding, using music to convey memory and emotion.

You don't just sit down and like Shakespeare, but when you understand it you appreciate it more, and you see subtlties.

Well I can appreciate Dickens and Kipling but Shakespeare just escapes me. The stories just didn't engage me. Romeo and Juliet seemed sappy and dumb. What guy offs himself over a girl? Macbeth was probably the worst murder mystery of all times and don't get me started on Hamlet. Believe me, I understand it but I just don't think the stories are very good. I would say they were revolutionary for the time they were written in but you are talking about an age where most people were illiterate bone heads so it was easier to come out looking like a shining star as even if your works were not that great. I'll take Dicken's works over Shakespear anyday. His book "Hard Times" was just as difficult a read as any shakespear but at least it was interesting to read. Same with a Tale of Two Cities. And I would much rather read A Christmas Carol in July than any of Shakespears works. I think the education system poisons us by telling us that we must appreciate Shakespear and Opera or there is something wrong with us. That we are somehow cretins who are not enlightened enough because we don't agree with them. The intellectually snobbish indoctrinate our children into believing this stuff or at least mouthing their acceptance when they know it is a load of horse dung. I spent countless wasted hours reading what the intellectual elitists told me was great literature only to find garbage. Give me mind numbing television written well anyday rather than the overhyped malaise novels of the past.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Oh how brutal, Jeff! Yet, ever so courteous and... ahem... bluntly true! There were times when I felt like some of their hearts would actually pop out... and other times when I felt like my head would explode (unfortunately not in a Glenn Beck duct tape sort of moment either)... I tried a couple times to watch it...

I do enjoy Shakespeare, when it is performed well. Othello and Macbeth are my favorites. I actually was able to see a great performance of Othello at BYU many years ago. Julius Ceasar is okay, but never really like Romeo and Juliet. Don't remember if I've been exposed to more than just a few snippets of any of his other plays though in passing in literature classees. Another couple plays, very much in the lines of the depth of Shakespeare, I appreciate are Oedipus and Antigone. I saw Antigone done in a modern setting in a small black blox theatre (gave you the impression it was Nazi Germany, but it wasn't...) as opposed to the classical greek setting on a stage. Very impressed with it.

Opera and ballet are worthwhile things to learn to appreciate... but, and I guess personally my lack of interest in them comes from the correlation of much of the art forms to the silliness of Bugs Bunny cartoons as a child. How can you take a Wagner work seriously when all you hear is Elmer Fudd singing "Kill tha Wabbit! Kill tha Wabbit!" or Bugs Bunny singing the March of the Torreador from the Barber of Seville as "Oh Fiadora don't spit on the floor-a! Use the cuspador-a for that is what it's for-a." Beyond that, personally, as art forms go, opera and ballet are kind of like golf in the sports world... something generally viewed as elitist and only affordable for the few.

Hey Roper, we've fallen and we can't get up! Sorry to have so totally derailed the discussion from the topic... And, since Ray was not involved, you can be assured it was all innocent... or was it...

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Ok then by the numbers.

Prior to Shakespeare, no one really did plays. The closest you can get are Chaucers tales.

Shakespeare, along with King James, saved the English language.

1-Romeo and Juliette was more than simply a guy offing himself over a girl (which didn't happen in the play). Rather it was in regard to two feuding families who put familial or political loyalty over personal desires. It also showed at a deeper level how the subversion of a society can indeed cause grave consequences to the individual. It also raises the question as to whether or not love should hold deeper meaning than other familial or societal influences. In fact Romeo and Juliettes theme are continually plagarized time and again in the modern era through a number of movies.

2-Macbeth wasn't a murder mystery. It was a political drama. It also raises the questions as to whether personal ambition should overcome personal morality, in fact the man himself wrestles with it, while his wife drives him on. Some would say Bill and Hillary Clinton embody some of those concepts, but that is fodder for the political attacks. Macbeth also speaks to the idea of power and its ability to corrupt even the most righteous of men. It speaks in depth to hubris and conscience and how expediency itself must one day be paid for. So international and so compelling is the story that even foriegn, non Christian cultures such as Japan took it to heart (don't even get me started on Klingon acceptance).

3-If you want to talk about Hamlet, feel free, it is perhaps Shakespeares most important work and his most complicated.

Dickens borrows heavily from Shakespeare in his stories (even the Christmas Carol and the three ghosts versus the three witches). Consider that Dickens called Shakespeare "The great master who knew everything, whose plays were an unspeakable delight". He studied Shakespeare his entire life.

Given your endorsement of Dickens, what does that say of Dickens endorsement of Shakespeare.

I wouldn't call you a cretin, certainly not, but I would instead point out that you probably don't know Shakespeare all that well and so have not developed the appreciation that Dickens has. And our education, though it is never fully right, in this thing is of utmost correctness, Shakespeare, to this day is one of the greatest of playwrights and writers, whose words to this day, half a millenia later, still are used as a vehicle to tell the story.

To appreciate the Mona Lisa or Shakespeare is not a question of snobbishness. To denigrate Dickens and deplore his work while appreciating Shakespeare is. There is a difference. I do not adhere to the latter defintion, but do definately appreciate the form and writing of both Shakespeare and Operas.

Just one thing to consider. The operas heard today have survived hundreds of years and still remain popular. In a hundred years we will probably speak equally well of the tragically short career of Bonham and the great music of Led Zepplin.

-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 14:27, 2006-10-24

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Why didn't someone tell me this thread had gotten so interesting!?

SHAKESPEARE!! There's something I can talk about almost as much as politics!!!

-- Edited by fear of shiz at 14:45, 2006-10-24

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:

Just one thing to consider. The operas heard today have survived hundreds of years and still remain popular. In a hundred years we will probably speak equally well of the tragically short career of Bonham and the great music of Led Zepplin.

-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 14:27, 2006-10-24

Zepplin?! Now you're speaking my language!

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Saw them in 1977, as good live as they were in the studio. Unfortunately it was their last US tour.

arbilad · Head Chef

What I like about Shakespeare is not only his stories but his wonderful command of the English language. He manages to say so much using so few words. And his command of idiom, simile, and metaphor was exceptional.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

I agree, he defines the language like no one else has and there hasn't been an equal to his impact snc then.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I never thought I would like ballet. Then I went to one. I saw Romeo and Juliet. The story, the music, the dance--Wow! It was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

And the guys in leotards? Well, every one of them could probably bench press my own weight and more, and yet they moved with as much grace as the 90 lb ballerinas. You gotta respect that...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

What I like about Shakespeare is not only his stories but his wonderful command of the English language. He manages to say so much using so few words. And his command of idiom, simile, and metaphor was exceptional.

Not only that, but much of his plays are written in a form of poetry. Quite often, there is a distinct rhythm, and sometimes even some rhyming. Isn't Shakespeare credited with developing (or at least making popular) the sonnet?

Roper wrote:

And the guys in leotards? Well, every one of them could probably bench press my own weight and more, and yet they moved with as much grace as the 90 lb ballerinas. You gotta respect that...

Yeah, but it is still kinda fun to point and laugh... (okay, so I'm so out of shape and overweight I have problems doing 5 pushups, that is still far more manly than dancing like a girly-man... )

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

Yeah, but it is still kinda fun to point and laugh... (okay, so I'm so out of shape and overweight I have problems doing 5 pushups, that is still far more manly than dancing like a girly-man... )

My daughter was in ballet a few years back. I went to her recital and of course invited every family member possible. We took up nearly a whole row in the auditorium. For three hours I was subjected to what can only be described as torture under the Geneva Convention. Unfortunately I did not qualify for status as an enemy combatant so there was no relief for me. After the performance they had to honor each teacher with a special gift and performance and then they had the senior students say what they loved about the schools founder and do a special dance. I was crawling out of my skin. We now refer to it as the recital that would never end. The little kids didn't have to endure this though. They had a TV playing cartoon DVDs and snacks in the back. I ended up apologizing to every relative and friend I invited to see my little girl. We decided the piano recitals would be much shorter and put her in piano after that!

The men in the recital just looked funny. They had these super tight leatards on and from our seating the bulge in there leotard was right at eye level. Then the subject of the ballet performance was a story about some deer that is lame who goes on a journey. The main character limped across the stage forever. The program was supposed to tell you what was happening in the different scenes. After a while I was telling everyone around me fake stuff about the next scene.

I can say that I don't have pushup envy at all. I can still do 50 pushups on my knuckles from my days in the martial arts.

-- Edited by salesortonscom at 12:47, 2006-10-25

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Anyone read the comic strip 9 Chickweed Lane?