If the prophet told the general membership of the church, in General Conference, that we should not back Immigration reform and the root of the policies were based upon selfishness and racism, would you heed his words? And if he said, the fear of poverty or terror does not justify keeping people out of this promised land, and that God will attend those who work... and all sorts of gospel points to back up his arguments... (rather than political or policy ones...)Would it change your political opinion?
--Ray
PS> I'm thinking about getting on the phone with him, to have him clarify a few things... so I'm just wondering if I should have him clarify that one for y'all...
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
It is sometimes hard to wrap one's mind around an improbable scenario.
That would counter the discouragement of gathering to "Mother Utah", that we should make zion where we are at. The PEF is to help people stay where they are and make a better life for themselves and their families through education.
If he said it from the pulpit as the prophet speaking for the Lord then yes I would heed his words as if they came from the Savior himself. To do otherwise would be a bit arrogant on my part wouldn't you say?
Reminds me of the League of Nations controversy back in the day (not my day). When some members of the 12 and first presidency were actually divided on issue with some public statements by the various parties. In that situation the prophet clarified that the position he gave was his own and that he wasn't speaking for the Lord on the issue. Made for interesting times though!
If the prophet told the general membership of the church, in General Conference, that we should not back Immigration reform and the root of the policies were based upon selfishness and racism, would you heed his words? And if he said, the fear of poverty or terror does not justify keeping people out of this promised land, and that God will attend those who work... and all sorts of gospel points to back up his arguments... (rather than political or policy ones...)Would it change your political opinion?
If the prophet told the general membership of the church, in General Conference, that 2 + 2 = 5, would it change the way you figure your taxes? Engineer bridges? Calculate cubic feet of concrete for your foundation? I believe the Lord speaks through the prophet. The Lord will not lead us astray. When my son and daughter join my wife and I in the car we don't need 5 places for people to sit. This country is the handiwork of God, and I don't think he's ready to tell us to destroy it.
The prophet Joseph Smith did not want Sidney Rigdon confirmed as counselor, yet the general membership confirmed him as such.
If the prophet said.... Doesn't always mean the church will do....
There is something of a dichotomy in regard to the church stance on the immigration issue. One the one hand, one of the temple questions deals with the law of the land. One the other hand, many spanish wards have illegal aliens who are also temple recommend holders. An interesting dilemma no?
That would be something to pray about. There are a lot of things the Prophet says that I just recognize as true the moment I hear them, others I need to pray about, if only for that added confirmation. I believe President Young encoraged the members to pray about the things the Prophet teaches, not just accept everything automaticaly.
Ah, isn't that where faith comes in? If 2+2=4 but the prophet says it now equals five according to the Lord then would not the Lord show us in his own due time how it could equal 5, line upon line, precept on precept as we exercise faith?
I would rapidly be out of a job if I began to act on the idea that 2 + 2 = 5. And rightly so.
I chose an example that was so outlandish, so far out there, that no one (I thought) would ever take it seriously. But perhaps I underestimate the ingenuity of the human mind. Was it the queen in Alice in Wonderland who said that with practice, one can believe 6 impossible things before breakfast?
I am desirous that the world in general have confidence in the capabilities and sanity of Mormons, and not get the idea that those capabilities and sanity can all be washed away by the next pronouncement from the prophet. That's why I think that presenting absurd scenarios such as "If the prophet said..." can be counter-productive.
This confidence is important for issues as disparate as whether the US can afford a Mormon president, or whether I'm going to keep my job.
The example I chose was meant to be sufficiently absurd that people would clearly see that it was meant to expose absurdity rather than to be put forward as a legitimate possibility. But it wouldn't be the first time my writing skills have proven insufficient.
Oh Randy, cheer up my friend and look at it this way. Can 1+1=1 in nature? Sure it can.
How many absolute truths of science have changed over time. The world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, cigarettes were good for the lungs (doctors actually recommended this one), and that a glass of wine a day is good for you.
Now I'm not saying that the prophet will declare that the current understanding of math to be innaccurate but to value ones job, social standing etc in the world over what the Lord may demand of us is pretty foolish.
The Lord through his Prophet Joseph Smith commanded the saints to do a number of things that seemed at the time to be crazy or counterintuitive. Go to Europe and Preach the gospel with no money while your family lives in a tent in the freezing cold, Zion is to gather to this swamp (Navoo), and you are commanded to take another wife. Crazy? Yea, but looking through the prism of history we know they were following the will of the Lord as conveyed through His prophet. Thus if the prophet, speaking as the Lord's oracle tells me that 2+2=5, that we must accept illegal imigrants, or that I need to wear a kilt then I will do it.
I find it hysterical that some of you equate what I wrote about immigration and 2+2=5 Hahahaha... Some of you are REALLY attached to your political opinions... hee hee... (I'm laughing WITH you, not at you... sorta...
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I find it hysterical that some of you equate what I wrote about immigration and 2+2=5 Hahahaha... Some of you are REALLY attached to your political opinions... hee hee... (I'm laughing WITH you, not at you... sorta...
--Ray
Immigration is indeed on many people's minds. What we piont out is the questionable consistency of one standpoint in policy (which might be taken as the prophets words) versus another standpoint (which seems counter to another mandate through the prophet). In other words, it speaks to what and how we deal with what we "think" the prophet is saying and what we "think" we should do politically.
I find it hysterical that some of you equate what I wrote about immigration and 2+2=5 Hahahaha... Some of you are REALLY attached to your political opinions... hee hee... (I'm laughing WITH you, not at you... sorta...
--Ray
They're not political opinions Ray, their reality!
Plus did anyone figure out the mathematical formula yet for how 1+1=1?
What about the concept of synergy where 1+1=3?
What about how a butterfly flapping his wings in Peking china causes rain in central park?
The Lord through his Prophet Joseph Smith commanded the saints to do a number of things that seemed at the time to be crazy or counterintuitive. Go to Europe and Preach the gospel with no money while your family lives in a tent in the freezing cold, Zion is to gather to this swamp (Navoo), and you are commanded to take another wife.
Yes, it's hard enough to defend the church for doing what the Lord asked it to do without also adding the necessity of defending the church for hypothetically obeying absurd scenarios in hypothetical situations. If you were asked to shovel 20 tons of sand would you ask for someone to first dump 20 tons of gravel on top of that sand?
Our mission as stated by the Lord is to bring the church out of obscurity. Like it or not, many of our leaders have stated that they would like Mormons to have a reputation for reliability. It's difficult to accomplish that when we become aiders and abbetors of the people who want to make us look like buffoons. One way we do that is to say "If the prophet said..."
Just my opinion, though. For what it's worth (or not).--------(Yeah, my opinion, not to be confused with the unassailable fact that in order for this nation to survive we must control our borders and only admit immigrants who want to be Americans...)
The Lord through his Prophet Joseph Smith commanded the saints to do a number of things that seemed at the time to be crazy or counterintuitive. Go to Europe and Preach the gospel with no money while your family lives in a tent in the freezing cold, Zion is to gather to this swamp (Navoo), and you are commanded to take another wife.
Yes, it's hard enough to defend the church for doing what the Lord asked it to do without also adding the necessity of defending the church for hypothetically obeying absurd scenarios in hypothetical situations. If you were asked to shovel 20 tons of sand would you ask for someone to first dump 20 tons of gravel on top of that sand?
I don't understand the gravel analogy?
Our mission as stated by the Lord is to bring the church out of obscurity. Like it or not, many of our leaders have stated that they would like Mormons to have a reputation for reliability. It's difficult to accomplish that when we become aiders and abbetors of the people who want to make us look like buffoons. One way we do that is to say "If the prophet said..."
I thought the three fold mission of the church was proclaim the gospel, redeem the dead, and perfect the saints and that the Lord's work was to bring about the immortality and eternal life of men. Also, how do we become aiders and abbetors of the people who want to make us look like baffoons by making a decision now that we will follow the will of the Lord in all things as revealed through the prophet. I think you are trying to think too hard about this. This isn't an issue of logic it is one of faith based on the folowing: The prophet is the oracle of the Lord and the Lord has promised us that he will not allow his prophet to lead the people astray, thus when the prophet reveals something to us as the will of the Lord we must accept it as the Lord's will otherwise the Lord's word is no good and the prophet can lead us astray and the whole plan of salvation are a lie and God ceases to be God. As was pointed out, we still have the option of inquiring for ourselves if it is truly from God but if we already have recieved confirmation from the Lord that the Prophet is his oracle then would we not fully expect that the words of the prophet would be confirmed by the Lord and that our additional inquiry was more to satisfy our own doubts or to offer clarification that we would not have needed in the first place had we become one with our Savior? Arghhhhhhh! Ray, what have you done to me? Now I'm going to pray about it and if I feel a burning in my foot I will know that I either have to hunt down Ray and put him on a cargo plane for a one way trip to Guatamala or that I need some tough actin tinactin!
Just my opinion, though. For what it's worth (or not).--------(Yeah, my opinion, not to be confused with the unassailable fact that in order for this nation to survive we must control our borders and only admit immigrants who want to be Americans...)
I think we are on the same page on the immigration issue but I would never presume that there is anything in this life that could change for me with a simple directive from our Heavenly Father via his prophet or the burning in the foot method.
So it's a crazy hypothetical that the prophet would reveal something that ran counter to your already preset personal political beliefs?
Yah... that's out of the realm of possibilities... Never seen that happen in scriptures... nope, nope, nope...
--Ray
PS> For many folks, god is thier politics... I was challenging that by setting up a hypothetical... if it makes you uncomfortable, perhaps there's some real nugget of truth in there...
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
So it's a crazy hypothetical that the prophet would reveal something that ran counter to your already preset personal political beliefs?
Yah... that's out of the realm of possibilities... Never seen that happen in scriptures... nope, nope, nope...
--Ray
PS> For many folks, god is thier politics... I was challenging that by setting up a hypothetical... if it makes you uncomfortable, perhaps there's some real nugget of truth in there...
Ha, sorry. When you have a job to do, why take steps to make it harder? That's all that was about. Kind of like pouring water on the kindling wood before praying for it to catch fire. No, wait. Bad example. Never mind.
Ray, Woul it change your opinion if, in conference, said that the gathering of Zion is to take place in each country, such as the gathering place for brazillians is in Brazil, and for Koreans in Korea, etc, would it change your opinion about illegal immigrants coming here to learn the gospel? There was also an interesting piece between sessions yesterday about how strongly the church is growing in Mexico, and how it is blessing the lives of the saints in Mexico, both spiritually and economically.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
The church is a blessing in every country it comes to. On the spiritual level it does much to enhance the desire for righteousness in a nation, that brings so many changes we couldn't name them all here.
On a more physical or mundane level, the church teaches sincerely the importance of education, honesty and industry. All good influences.
I am so glad that in conference they reiterated that the gathering is to take place whereever the Stakes of Zion can be found. Each person will be gathered in their own nation.
Such a statement by the prophet would not cause me to change political parties. On the specific topic I probably wouldn't support immigration reform, but I wouldn't stand against it specifically either.
In the years before the rule of Hong Kong was returned to China, many who feared Communist rule fled to Canada and other places. Had I been in that situation, that may well have been my impulse as well, very strongly. However, Church leadership counselled the members in that land to stay where they were. I will admit that that would possibly have been a very difficult challenge for me, perhaps more than I could handle. However, it is fully consistent with the counsel that church members have received for many decades now to remain in their own lands.
Some day, the seeds that have been sown in Hong Kong will spread to China. A temple now stands on the soil of the world's biggest Communist power. Perhaps Taiwan will some day be another source of the gospel's influx into China, where the language and ethnicity is different from Hong Kong's.
Ray, I don't know what criteria the church uses to determine what each member's land is, but I would guess that their hope that people stay in their own lands is a general rather than a specific thing for every individual. I suppose the definition used by the church might be that people should remain within the jurisdiction of the national government to which they are subject, but that is only a guess. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other factors at play as well. Perhaps there is someone at Church Headquarters in Salt Lake City that can answer that question better for you. -Randy
Does the church discourage proselytizing to illegal immigrants? Is an illegal immigrant kept from baptism due to his/her citizenship status? ANd if you join the church while in the country illegally, does that mean that "your land" becomes the land in which you're baptized?
I think it would suck to join the church in Belize... you'd be stuck in this piddly south american country, when you could have joined in American and would have all sorts of choices for summer homes... like Oklahoma, or Maine, or Arizona!?
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
