So um... Jase brought up an interesting observation that a lot of women's studies classes often turn into "male bashing sessions", and are not really about women at all, but about eeeeevil men... so here's a thread for us to log all the eeeevil male tendencies...
Like the need to discuss uncomfortable things ad nauseum... :)
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I must be evil because I don't believe in "women's rights". I think that companies should be able to discriminate based on gender (among other things) and that wages don't need to be evened out. I don't believe in any form of affirmative action, and all of that pretty much puts me in the evil camp (I think).
it is worth noting, though, that I don't believe in "men's rights" either, or "gay rights", or "ethnic rights", or "______ rights". I am not of the opinion that certain groups of people need special rights or protection by the govt. it seems to me that if company x wanted to not serve african-americans, then market forces would either solve the "problem" or not. and if not, then society really is doomed, and we should all run and hide. on the same token, if company y wants to pay men really high salaries and pay women really low salaries, they should be able to do so. if company y misses out on a really talented female candidate, due to low wages, then that is their loss. but I don't think that the hypothetical woman should have any rights to file a lawsuit based on discrimination.
I think women have the right to be treated fairly and not as property. I believe women should have equal treatment under the law. Women should be free live without the threat of abuse or injury. Just like everyone else. Where the women's rights movement went wrong was when they embraced the idea that it somehow empowers women to dress trashy, sleep around, get abortions on demand, and that by having a husband and children they are somehow less of a person or traiters to women out in the world. The women's movement embraces a false sense of victimhood to push an anti-male agenda. For them being treated as all people should be treated, with respect and dignity, is not enough. It is a war against everything male. The male is the source for evil, war, poverty, agression, hunger, crime, etc. If you do get married you have every right to withhold intimacy as a punishment or even just because you feel like it and that you can treat your husband like dirt.
The sad part is that women have all the power in the world in marriage and relationships but the women's rights supporters have squandered that power away by becoming unpaid prostitutes for men and then lamenting that they can't find a good man who will treat them like a queen and actually marry them.
I actually took an English Class in college where one of the short stories we were told to read was about the pop singer Madonna and her being a role model to young women. We then discussed the article. Being the cantankerous young lad that I was I pointed out that I thought Madonna was one of the worst role models that a girl could have because she used suggestive dancing, risque clothing, pornographic lyrics, and bad videos to become a superstar and sell her products. I called her the enemy of true feminism. Because instead of her using her mind or tallents to become successful she was just an object and that her popularity stemmed from her pushing the boundaries of appropriate sexual expression.
Well you should have seen the rage that some of the young women in that class unleashed on me. The concensus among these young women was that Madonna was in control over her sexuality and that is why she is a good role model for feminism. No man could tell her what she could or could not do. Needless to say I was greatly outnumbered and no one came to my defense. I think my opinions did gain some respect from the instructor because I was able to logically present support for unpopular opinions even in the face of some heavy fire from a large group.
As for the women's class I took, that was also an interesting situation. I was constantly barraged when I did not follow the popular ideas of the day. Some of those women in the class were extremely angry at men. The Church even was disparaged by the text books and women in the class. It was a very difficult situation and the teacher did nothing to assist in the exchange of ideas. Outside of the class this instructor was a really nice person. She was listened to me and was very respectful. But in the class she let this sort of thing go unchecked. I considered her to be a bit of a coward but with about 50 angry women in the class and about 6 men she may have felt that she needed to play to her crowd.
I took the class because our undergraduate requirements were that we had to take one ethnic or minority studies class. At the time California was heavilly involved in debates over an initiative on the ballot banning public funds and services for illegal immigrants. There were protests on campus and the governor effigy and several flags were burned. The minority groups on campus were in an uproar so taking any of the other ethnic studies classes was not what I wanted to subject myself to being an oppressive white male and all.
I've heard that one reason why women are frequently paid less is that men typically bargain for more money more often than women do. This theory posits that if women were more assertive in salary negotiations they might get paid more.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
arbilad wrote: I've heard that one reason why women are frequently paid less is that men typically bargain for more money more often than women do. This theory posits that if women were more assertive in salary negotiations they might get paid more.
Then I must be a woman... no one ever taught me how to do salary negotiations or negotiate my employment packages... and I know I make less than women in various job functions in my group of peers and associates.
I don't know what that has to do with anything concerning the topic, but when it comes to wages, I'm more the opinion that Pres. Hinckley states... (paraphrased) 'Employers will generally pay you what they feel your skills are worth to them' despite how depressing that so often makes me feel since one of the modus operandi of my employer towards it's employee base has ranged in the 8 + years I've been here from essentially 'sure we know we pay below market, but you should be grateful you have a job with us because we are such a great company' to 'you really don't know what it is going to be like anywhere else and may find the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence.'
One of the eeevil male tendencies we should log is the fact we mere men don't think like women and just don't understand that women understand how we think and act so much better than we do...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Actually, Cat, given the nature of the internet and the fact that I've never met you, for all I know you could be a woman! Actually, I have to admit that I'm not very good at salary negotiation either. Sometimes I've been so desparate for a job that I would have agreed to daily beatings, so negotiating salary was far from my mind.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
arbilad wrote: Actually, Cat, given the nature of the internet and the fact that I've never met you, for all I know you could be a woman! Actually, I have to admit that I'm not very good at salary negotiation either. Sometimes I've been so desparate for a job that I would have agreed to daily beatings, so negotiating salary was far from my mind.
I would be one butt-ugly woman if I were a woman! Just ask my wife!
And, just think back to the pre-existence to when we met... we were all probably in the same Mortality Prep class.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
That's an interesting question. Did we know each other in the pre-existence? What was the extent of our social circle in the before Earth life? Did we know all the spirits destined to live on God's infinite creations? Did we just know the people slated for this Earth? Or just those coming to Earth around the same time we are? One thing the internet does do, I think, is mute age boundaries. For instance, I'm pretty sure that most of the regular posters here are older than my own 32 years. However, we converse more or less as equals. Unfortunately the females on our forum don't participate much, but they are certainly welcome to participate on an equal standing with the males. So in that way, the internet is a great communications tool. However, where it fails is that written text is easy to misunderstand. You miss a lot of the voice inflection or body language that imparts extra meaning. Also, people tend to say stuff on the internet that they'd never say in person. For instance, can you imagine Ray asking his Elder's quorum meeting at church if they had any advice on him buying a bra for his daughter? Ok, maybe Ray would do that, but most people wouldn't.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Just ask my wife! 
