Is Conspiracy theorism compatible with LDS doctrine?

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Is Conspiracy theorism compatible with LDS doctrine?

arbilad · Head Chef

Your accusations are foundationless and based upon a straw man. The vast majority of conspiracy theorists that I know work within the process. Only a very small minority have given up.
Further, LDS doctrine requires conspiracy theory! We are told that secret combinations were the downfall of Nephite society, and that they could be the downfall of ours if we are not careful. Modern prophets have warned us not only to be aware of them, but that they currently exist. If modern prophets have warned us against it, then I think I am safe in saying that it is wholly compatible with LDS Doctrine.
In fact, for that and other reasons I find the assertion you made to be absurd on the face of it.
You can argue as to the extent of them, but to argue that conspiracy theory is incompatible with LDS doctrine is to ignore the teachings of prophets, both modern and ancient.

Randy · Senior Member

Well using Fear of Shiz' definition of "conspiracy theory" I'd have to say he and Jonah Goldburg, to whose article he linked, make a lot of sense. They aren't saying there's no such thing as a secret consipracy--had the Muslims who attacked the Pentagon on 9/11 failed to keep their conspiracy secret, their plans would not have succeeded.

Where these "conspiracy theories" cross the line is when you give a small secret sub-government within the government all this power to do whatever they want without attracting any real suspicion. Although they never come out and declare themselves they are somehow able to hold onto power for decades despite changes in the government. This does not resemble the sort of secret combination that the Book of Mormon describes. On the other hand, the Muslims who attacked the Pentagon fits that definition to a T.

These overimaginative scenarios that defy common sense make it more difficult to solve real problems to the extent that we divert our resources for solving those problems to considering these fantasies.

One of the most fertile grounds for conspiracy theories are those lands and regimes that are the enemies of the United States. The president of Iran cleverly says "How do you know the Holocaust really happened?" The majority of Muslims still believe that no Jews went to the WTC on 9/11, having been warned in advance.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

Further, LDS doctrine requires conspiracy theory!

Oh really!?

With all due respect guys, saying that the gospel requires conspiracy theory is about as absurd as saying there is no one out there with an agenda that is contrary to promoting that which is in the best interest of the public and the Republic. Where's a good eye emoticon when ya need one...

Am I so naive as to think there are not individuals and groups within our own country who do not seek to trample on the freedom of the people? No. On the one hand, we see it everyday in the news just about, from activist judiciary to lawyers and other groups like the ACLU, etc. working subtely to wrest the law. And on the other hand, we have other groups like the NRA who cry foul at anything or anyone that impedes their interests or agenda.

Yet, from a gospel standpoint, we have the living prophet and apostles today reminding us subtley and directly to do the simple little things in living the gospel. (see Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Times in Which We Live", Ensign, Nov. 2001, 72). The reminder is that our safety and well being and welfare are to be found in being faithful to the gospel commandments and teachings.

We are not the watchmen. The living Prophet of God, and His living Apostles are. They have not told us we should be acting fearfully or looking to root out the evil or identify evil designs of conspiring men. They have reminded us that it is our duty and privilege as fathers and holders of the Priesthood to help build up Zion and God's kingdom here upon the earth. (see Bruce D. Porter, “Building the Kingdom,” Ensign, May 2001, 80).

So, before this gets too heated, why don't both sides of the discussion agree to first make definitions as to what is considered conspiracy theory. Me, when I hear the term, it immediately conjures up thoughts of absurd paranoia, like the Lone Gunmen from the X-files... and I'm sure that is not what those of you who hold that there are dangerous conspiracies afoot would want others to think, just as those who feel that line of thinking is on the radical side don't want those folks thinking you are just merely comfortably complacent.

(edited the word "not" out of first sentence prior to "contrary", as it didn't make sense and ended up sounding opposite to what I was intending to say)

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 12:02, 2006-09-13

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 12:03, 2006-09-13

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Moroni told us there will be (are) conspiracies in our time. President Benson was, I believe the last prophet to remind us of this fact in 1988, and spelled out their agenda in no uncertain terms. Current silence on this subject tells me it is one that could draw persecution upon the Church, not that there are no more conspiracies.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Great response by Randy. I appreciate that distinction. I am not ruling out the existence of all SCs/conspiracies. Obviously the Islamofascist terrorists and their masters in Iran and elsewhere fit that mold. That is a real conspiracy that needs to be fought back against. But I am EXTREMELY skeptical of the tendency to see conspiracies pulling the strings behind American government, in everything from the cost of gasoline to the 9/11 attack. Might there be deals struck in the proverbial smoke-filled rooms? Sure. Is there some huge Gadianton conspiracy, which is dictating events around the world? No.

lineuponline · Veteran Member

Ye believe the Book of Mormon, but do ye understand it?

1 Nephi -- Discovery

2 Nephi to Mosiah -- Colonization / Kingship

Alma -- Reign of the judges (Republic)

early Helaman -- Capitalism

late Helaman -- Oligarchy

early 3 Nephi -- Tribalism and Armageddon

late 3 Nephi -- Second Coming

4 Nephi -- Millennium

Let us see what the Book of Mormon teaches us about these secret combinations:

They exist in our days (Ether 8:23-24)

They will conquer the world (Ether 8:25)

They commit murder in secret, not on public television

They assassinated Kennedy (Helaman 1: three brothers - two assassinated)

They infiltrated the US government (Helaman 6)

Helaman was labelled a nutcase for speaking out against them

They allow the rich to go completely unpunished

They rob the people then retreat to the mountains (Swiss bank, Switzerland mountains, Switzerland untouched by all wars)

Samuel the Lamanite persecuted for revealing the truth

They issue ultimatum 'submit and join, or perish' (3 Nephi 3)

They will introduce the anti-christ (3 Nephi 7, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Revelations 13)

"Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon was the 'keystone of our religion' and the 'most correct' book on Earth (Doctrinal History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 56). This most correct book on Earth states that the downfall of two great American civilizations came as a result of secret conspiracies whose desire was to overthrow the freedom of the people. 'And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking', says Moroni, 'and also the destructions of the people of Nephi (Ether 8:21).' Now undoubtedly Moroni could have pointed out many factors that led to the destruction of the people, but notice how he singled out the secret combinations, just as the Church today could point out many threats to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work, but it has singled out the greatest threat as the godless conspiracy. There is no conspiracy theory in the Book of Mormon--it is a conspiracy fact. Then Moroni speaks to us in this day and says, 'wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you . . ." (Ezra Taft Benson, CR, April 1972, Ensign, pg. 49-53)

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

I could just as easily argue that they (the secretly combined) are retreating to the mountains of Iran and Afghanistan. The Islamofascists are seeking to overthrow our liberty as much as Communism or Nazism was. Seems to me that they fit the bill.

/derail/ FWIW, I believe JFK was killed by a conspiracy--from Cuba.

lineuponline · Veteran Member

So do you assert that these Islamic Fascists will infiltrate the US Government, allow the rich to go completely unpunished, conquer the world, and introduce the anti-christ as well? While they have a mountainous region for hiding, when have they 'robbed' or 'plundered' us?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

"Ye believe the Book of Mormon, but do ye understand it?"

That is not a fair thing to say. Are you sure your understanding is better or more correct? In your comparison for patterns, where is the book of Ether? What about Mormon and Moroni? I don't see anywhere in the Book of Mormon that so long as the people were free, they were not allowed to follow the aspects of capitalism, as the pride cycle of getting rich and forgetting God is repeated time and time again.

"Now undoubtedly Moroni could have pointed out many factors that led to the destruction of the people, but notice how he singled out the secret combinations, just as the Church today could point out many threats to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work, but it has singled out the greatest threat as the godless conspiracy."

To quote the quote you make, Elder Benson said it is the "godless conspiracy"... he was not the oracle of The Lord (as in the Prophet) at the time, unless I'm mistaken it was Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith, and yet he still was quite careful in the exact words he said from the pulpit. He did not specifically say communism, he did not specifically say government insiders, he did not specifically say this political party or that political party. He said "godless conspiracy". I equate that to mean anything and everyone that does not work towards the establishment of Zion and building up of the Kingdom of God on earth.

I have a few questions that I just thought of, if it is alright to ask. Why is it that so much creedence is given to Ezra Taft Benson's political thought and opinions? Is it because he was in Eisenhower's cabinet while being a member of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles and therefore must be a subject matter expert? We know he was passionate about politics... but, so are many other people. So, since neither Pres. Hunter nor Pres. Hinckley have spoken to the same level of political rhetoric that Pres. Benson ostensibly last did in 1988, does that mean they aren't in synch then and their "wisdom" is suspect? Why did Pres. Benson not continue talking about it after 1988? I'd really like to get your thoughts on it, as I was in the MTC when Pres. Kimball died and out of the country on my mission for the first two years of Pres. Benson's tenure as Prophet...

I personally prefer to stick with what the living Prophet has counseled us: “The time has come for us to stand a little taller, to lift our eyes and stretch our minds to a greater comprehension and understanding of the grand millennial mission of this, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

arbilad · Head Chef

For the record, I do not believe in the existence of one conspiracy controlling the whole world. What I do believe in is the existence of multiple competing conspiracies which sometimes make agreements with each other (and plan to cheat their partner at the first opportunity).
I'd appreciate it, though, if those who don't believe in any conspiracy in government, large or small, would explain a few things to me.
First, it is the fallen nature of man to seek power. Those in power, or who would like power, frequently view secret combinations as a way to gain or expand their power. Why is it that you believe that government, which traditionally attracts those who love power, has not attracted anyone who has thought to expand his power by forming a secret combination? Or to gain position (thus power) in government by means of a secret combination? Are the people who are currently in government, or striving to be there, simply people of impeccable morals, down to the last man?
Second, in an era of ever worsening wickedness, when people are succombing to all sorts of sins of the flesh, do you think that it has occurred to noone that they could keep their conspiracy small and deniable, while controlling people to their ends by using the leash that is their bad habits? After all, historically that has been a very effective method of controlling people, even kings.
Third, since it is a historical fact that there have been secret agreements to get gain (Teapot Dome Scandal, for instance), what has changed that you feel now makes the government impervious to all secret combinations?

arbilad · Head Chef

I personally prefer to stick with what the living Prophet has counseled us: “The time has come for us to stand a little taller, to lift our eyes and stretch our minds to a greater comprehension and understanding of the grand millennial mission of this, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Why is it impossible to follow this advice and believe in conspiracies? I do not see that the two are mutually exclusive. Please elucidate.
And it's not a question of taking one prophet's wisdom over another. The more recent prophets have simply said nothing about it. They haven't denied or disowned the statements. Indeed, many of Pres. Benson's statements concerning conspiracies were published in the Ensign, meaning that they are modern day scripture.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

First, it is the fallen nature of man to seek power. Those in power, or who would like power, frequently view secret combinations as a way to gain or expand their power. Why is it that you believe that government, which traditionally attracts those who love power, has not attracted anyone who has thought to expand his power by forming a secret combination? Or to gain position (thus power) in government by means of a secret combination?

I don't dispute this. But not all those who are in power or seek it do so for unrighteous purposes. Believe it or not, there are some people who do rise above the lowest common denominator in the fallen nature of man.

Are the people who are currently in government, or striving to be there, simply people of impeccable morals, down to the last man?

I think that the majority of elected officials are still looking out for the public interest.

Second, in an era of ever worsening wickedness, when people are succombing to all sorts of sins of the flesh, do you think that it has occurred to noone that they could keep their conspiracy small and deniable, while controlling people to their ends by using the leash that is their bad habits? After all, historically that has been a very effective method of controlling people, even kings.

Sorry, lost my attention there... was too busy thinking about Billary.

Third, since it is a historical fact that there have been secret agreements to get gain (Teapot Dome Scandal, for instance), what has changed that you feel now makes the government impervious to all secret combinations?

I don't think it is impervious. I just don't feel it is saturated any more than in the days of Kennedy or Johnson or Nixon. Nor do I get myself worked up about it. Maybe if I were closer to the same level of personal righteousness as Pres. Benson was, I would. But until then, I have plenty of work to do on myself and in my home before trying to solve the problems of the world caused by the unrighteous use of agency by others.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

Why is it impossible to follow this advice and believe in conspiracies? I do not see that the two are mutually exclusive. Please elucidate.
And it's not a question of taking one prophet's wisdom over another. The more recent prophets have simply said nothing about it. They haven't denied or disowned the statements. Indeed, many of Pres. Benson's statements concerning conspiracies were published in the Ensign, meaning that they are modern day scripture.

I don't believe they are mutually exclusive either. I think people tend to reminesce more on what dead prophets have said than what the living one says, particularly if he had a certain charisma. The living prophet tells us what we need to hear and work on today. And, what we've been told to do today to combat the evils that we face, be it internal or external terrorism or the ACLU or redefinition of marriage or corrupt politicians or activist judges or economic problems or illegal immigration or NAFTA or offshoring of IT work or chronic halitosis (sorry, had to insert some humor

), is to live the gospel to the best of our ability. To look to Christ for our sure hope and not to fear. Ultimately, isn't that the same thing that Pres. Benson preached? He exhorted us to repent and live the gospel because of the things he perceived.

arbilad · Head Chef

I think that the majority of elected officials are still looking out for the public interest.
Ah, but that addresses my main point: it does not even have to be 1% of the elected officials being in on it for a government conspiracy to threaten our freedoms.
And I try to build up people, do my hometeaching, be a good father, etc. despite the knowledge that secret combinations threaten our freedoms. It does not take up a majority of my thoughts. I'm not one of those who spend the whole day just worrying about secret combinations. I figure that the best thing I can do to fight them is be the best LDS I can be, and be active in politics. I do both. Surely noone can find fault with either of those courses of action.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat Herder wrote:

arbilad wrote:

Why is it impossible to follow this advice and believe in conspiracies? I do not see that the two are mutually exclusive. Please elucidate.
And it's not a question of taking one prophet's wisdom over another. The more recent prophets have simply said nothing about it. They haven't denied or disowned the statements. Indeed, many of Pres. Benson's statements concerning conspiracies were published in the Ensign, meaning that they are modern day scripture.

I don't believe they are mutually exclusive either. I think people tend to reminesce more on what dead prophets have said than what the living one says, particularly if he had a certain charisma. The living prophet tells us what we need to hear and work on today. And, what we've been told to do today to combat the evils that we face, be it internal or external terrorism or the ACLU or redefinition of marriage or corrupt politicians or activist judges or economic problems or illegal immigration or NAFTA or offshoring of IT work or chronic halitosis (sorry, had to insert some humor ), is to live the gospel to the best of our ability. To look to Christ for our sure hope and not to fear. Ultimately, isn't that the same thing that Pres. Benson preached? He exhorted us to repent and live the gospel because of the things he perceived.

Cat, I think we agree on the main points, but disagree on some minor ones.

Randy · Senior Member

Teapot Dome Scandal. A good example of what happens when conspiring men make their inevitable mistakes and their misdeeds become public, based on verifiable facts rather than an overactive imagination.

Why level accusations that are based on nothing more than imagination? Shouldn't we expect serious evidence? I could say that a certain unsolved crime in California was done by a certain politician in Washington because I'm convinced that there are evil men in government, but I would think it should have credibility before it begins to be bandied about.

Are we so viciously suspicious of everyone in power that we can emotionally attribute every evil that happens in the world to them?

You're welcome to live in that world if you want. I'm not going there.

For what it's worth, we as a people will never be taken seriously by anyone if it were to be learned that we put credence in works of fantasy.

It's almost as if the beginning point for some is "The Government is Evil" and so then we look around and see how the world fits into that theory. Sure, there are evil men. Sure, they conspire. But once you get beyond a certain level of complexity it gets harder and harder to hold it all together.

The three brothers in the story of Helaman represent themselves. The writers of the Book of Mormon wrote "plain and precious," not puzzles that only the elite intelligent ones can figure out.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

Surely noone can find fault with either of those courses of action.

I could, but then I'd be a hypocrite...

Yeah, I think we do agree on the main points. I think what bugs most people who do not agree with the little points of folks who lean towards Constitutionalist or Libertarian political thought (and maybe I'm even incorrect in throwing the two together) is what seems to be the fixation on conspiracy theories and the dogmatic approach so many of the people in those groups have. It comes across as not being in harmony with the way the Lord would have us be with each other. Kind of rather, well if you don't see it or understand it or agree with me on it, then yer either just plain ignerunt or yer a part of it...

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Cat and Randy have done a good job of handling Arbi's questions, IMO.

And I never accused anyone of being a bad Mormon, and didn't intend to imply such.

lineuponline · Veteran Member

2 Nephi 32.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Could you elaborate on how that applies to the discussion, Line? It is a great and powerful message contained in that chapter, but I fail to see the relevance. Maybe it is just me.

Shiz, as to the "bad Mormon" thing, that was probably inadvertantly and unintentionally me, and I'm sorry if anyone interpreted that. I certainly did not mean it, and was simply trying to explain that for me the publicly expressed politics of the living prophet are more important to me than that of a dead one.

noel · Veteran Member

Cat,

I am a "constitutionalist". What is the connection between that, and paranoia?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

noel wrote:

Cat,

I am a "constitutionalist". What is the connection between that, and paranoia?

I don't know, are you paranoid?

I didn't say there was a connection between constitutionalism, or being one, and paranoia. I said that the impression of many people who do not lean towards that political view is that those who do seem fixated with conspiracies occuring all over, and are typically pretty dogmatic in their approach to sharing those ideas. I mean, so often it comes off to folks like me as essentially the same thing as a sensationalist investigative reporter, like Maury Povich or Geraldo Rivero. You know.

If anyone is paranoid, then we moderate conservatives are probably just as paranoid about you constitutionalists being nutjobs as you constitutionalists assume we think y'all are paranoid nutjobs!

lineuponline · Veteran Member

again, 2 Nephi 32.

try verse 4.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

lineuponline wrote:

again, 2 Nephi 32.

try verse 4.

"4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye aask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark."

Line... I think you are categorically taking that out of context, if you are implying it has anything to do with political understanding. Nephi had just made an end to his prophesying of the latter-day, of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and of the restored Church and the gathering of Israel and then, in Chapter 31, goes into explaining the basic doctrines of faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end following Christ in very plain and simple language. This scripture passage is the answer to the condition he perceived in 32:1 and the questions he asks in 32:2.

"1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had areceived the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the btongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?"

Are you implying that other individuals are not being prompted by the Holy Ghost if they are not seeing things the same way as the Constitutionist Party?

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 11:55, 2006-09-14

Randy · Senior Member

Catherder,

You made some excellent points, but I don't think it's fair to pin novel interpretations of the Book of Mormon on the Constitution Party. Other than that, though, I'm with ya.

-Randy

arbilad · Head Chef

Randy, I came to believe in conspiracies not because of a general dislike of government, or a desire to attribute all bad things that happen to some person or organization. I came to believe in conspiracies because, given the evidence, it is the most logical explanation for many things. And the talk radio shows that I listen to all have a passion for documenting assertions. You may agree or disagree that their sources mean what they say they do. But there are many well-researched books out there. One that you could try, if you're interested in evaluating the evidence, is "Brotherhood of Darkness" by Dr. Stan Montieth.
BTW, I would also like to point out that conspiracy theorists are not a homogenous group. That'd be just like saying that everyone who visits a health food store is a hippy tree hugging bleeding heart liberal. There are those types in health food stores. But I don't fit a single one of those labels, and I love going to the health food store.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Good men have conspired to do evil for personal gain since Cain slew able. Men (and some ladies) have conspired against their own government and countries since government and countries came about. What I glean from all this is that being paranoid about it wastes time and doesn't solve the problem. Some members take every world event and try and pigeon hole it into ancient prophesies. I remember hearing members back in the cold war that were certain the great battle of the last days was going to be the Soviet Union versus the U.S. and tried to interpret every little thing in view of nuclear war with them. Well that didn't work out. Prior to that some members did the same thing in WWII. Now some are doing the same thing with the current war on terror. Maybe this is the battle and great conspiracy and maybe it's not.

When I think of conspiracies I get a mental image of old white men sitting in a dark room smoking cigars, sitting in plush leather chairs in a wood paneled room. There they make decisions while consulting with aliens to take over the world. Throw in the freemasons, a plot by the Catholic church and you have the Da Vinci Code. Are their bad people in the world looking to do bad things. You bet. I just get tired though of people looking for something that is not there like the morons who think 9-11 wasn't what we thought it was or that we faked the moon landing. (There I go on the whole Da Vinci hoax again).

Is it compatible with the gospel? I don't think so. To constantly look to your government, business, labor, and financial entities as if they are in some league plotting to take over the world is lunacy and distracts us from the true conspiracy. The Adversary wants us to focus on this sort of stuff. It distracts us from why we are here and what we are supposed to do. If we become obsessed with conspiracy theories then we can lose focus and then we become more easilly swayed by his influence. That's the only conspiracy that I'm worried about. That and the government plot to eliminate Tomacolatte from the candy section of the supermarket!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

ummmm... sweet, smooth, tastey tomacolate from Tomacolatte Inc.

Splurge and treat yourself to the best! You deserve quality!

Randy, you're right. I didn't mean to make it sound like the novel interpretations of the Book of Mormon (or Bible or any scripture) is exclusive to or part of the Constitution Party or it's members. I know Arbi and Noel lean towards that party's platform, since they have said so, but I couldn't remember if Line or lundbaek said so. I just assumed it. Sorry guys.

One of my former home teaching companions (when I was a teen many years ago and he a fine old High Priest) became a Bo Gritz supporter, and it caused some interesting humor / awkward chuckles in gospel doctrine on Sundays at time as he would share his views and admonitions to vote Bo... Anyway, I'm now no longer a teen, and he is still a fine, though older old High Priest...

noel · Veteran Member

Cat,

If you have followed my comments it would be apparent that I am a Republican. I am also a constitutionalist.

I assume, with the exception of Ross Perot, you have also voted consistently Republican, and are therefore a "constitutionalist". Do you have any issues with original intent?

PS: Can you explain to me what it is that a "Moderate" moderates?

-- Edited by noel at 21:54, 2006-09-14

noel · Veteran Member

I suppose I should also add that conspiracies are inversely successful to the number of conspirators. A conspiracy "theorism" world view is inconsistent with any meaningful personal experience I have which is simultaneously significant, and secret.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Can you explain to me what it is that a "Moderate" moderates

As far as I can tell, they sit somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, moderating both ends by letting both ends beat the snot out of them... What I've seen over the past 12 years or so is a decrease in the size of the population that would have been termed Moderate from a political perspective as politics has become more confrontational and polarized.

I haven't always voted Republican, though lately mostly. I'll admit my ignorance here, but I don't understand what you mean by "original intent". When I was younger (and not of voting age yet), I actually admired some of the Democrat elected politicians, like Pres. Carter and Sen. John Glenn. I thought they were honest, decent guys for the most part. Unfortunately, I have not seen anyone of their calipre and overall integrity being presented as candidates from that party for a long, long time. The Republican party seems to have the corner on that in my sphere of influence. That is not to say all Republican candidates fit that bill. They have some real winners too...

Again, showing my ignorance, I understood the words in your last post, but not what they meant when strung together...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

The only thing "compatible" with LDS doctrine is truth. So if a theory is true, it is compatible. If it isn't, then it ain't...

END OF DISCUSSION... you might as well close this thread now... the brilliant RAY has spoken...

--Ray

nutbag · Member

salesortonscom wrote:

I just get tired though of people looking for something that is not there like the morons who think 9-11 wasn't what we thought it was or that we faked the moon landing.

Speaking of the moon-landing hoax, I found it!

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckr2w5XFJLw

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fltlD9YIdyI

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZwgMO-ZWA

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijjK1YiVsi4

noel · Veteran Member

Bravo Ray!

Now answer the question which Christ witheld from Pilate. "What is truth"?

With this we can end not only this discussion, but discussion for all time.

noel · Veteran Member

Cat,

"Original Intent" has become the catch phrase for interpreting the Constitution with due regard for the reasoning which went into the text.

Hamilton, Madison, and Jay authored a serial newspaper column which preceeded the constitutional convention, collectively called the "Federalist Papers". It is the best source we have from which "original intent" of our Constitution's writers can be determined.

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

The only thing "compatible" with LDS doctrine is truth. So if a theory is true, it is compatible. If it isn't, then it ain't...

END OF DISCUSSION... you might as well close this thread now... the brilliant RAY has spoken...

--Ray

Ray, I must admit, sometimes you seem to be just a court jester, but then you come up with a gem of pure brilliance like this. I even get the impression that I'd like you if I met you in person.

arbilad · Head Chef

BTW, while the "conspiracies are too complex" argument seems logical on the face of it, it nevertheless is a historical fact that there have been conspiracies in government. It is also a matter of Book of Mormon history. There were times in the Book of Mormon when conspiracies took over the government entirely. The Nephites had a complex system of government, and that wasn't a minor undertaking.
So, I agree that the complexity makes it a very difficult undertaking. But it is a matter of history that such complex undertakings have occassionally been successful.
There are even, in my opinion, relatively recent examples. The burning of the Reichstag, for instance, while blamed on the communists, is commonly thought to be the doing of the Nazis. It is beyond doubt that they benefited from it tremendously, and it was a major step in Hitler being able to grab dictatorial powers.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, here is a word from a living prophet that applies to conspiracies, although it is not only about them.

President Gordon B. Hinckley said:

We are involved in an intense battle. It is a battle between right and wrong, between truth and error, between the design of the Almighty on the one hand and that of Lucifer on the other. For that reason, we desperately need moral men and women who stand on principle, to be involved in the political process. Otherwise, we abdicate power to those whose designs are almost entirely selfish. ["Stand a little Taller,"pg. 15, July 2001]

In my mind, that's the reason to be aware of conspiracies. Not to be afraid, or to give in to despair. Those are wrong courses of action. Rather, we should be aware of the situation, and be active in the political process, so that we won't be at fault for the problems in our country. We should be happy, optimistic, and all-around good saints. But we should be aware of danger in order to do whatever we can to take care of it.
After all, which would be better, sitting around, hoping that the problems facing our country will get better by themselves, or taking an active part in making them better? We want to be good saints, but I think that part of that includes not sitting around and telling ourselves that "All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well"

noel · Veteran Member

But Arbi,

"Selfish designs" do not have to be conspiratorial in nature to find a place within government.

arbilad · Head Chef

noel wrote:

But Arbi,

"Selfish designs" do not have to be conspiratorial in nature to find a place within government.

Very true, which is why I said in my post that the quote doesn't apply to just conspiracies. It illustrates a good reason to be active in the political process.
I see conspiracies as a subset to selfish designs. That is, a conspiracy is a selfish design, but not every selfish design is a conspiracy. (that is, it's "sufficient", but not some other word which I cannot at this time remember from my critical thinking classes.
However, neither does it exclude conspiracies. If you were told to try to eliminate all insects from your house, that would include cockroaches, even though it would not be limited to them. It's the same thing here. We're told to work against selfish designs in government, which includes conpsiracies.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Cat Herder raised a question "Why is it that so much creedence is given to Ezra Taft Benson's political thought and opinions?", which I think warrants explanation. I can only speak for myself, but I'll try to solicit thoughts from others as well.

My first encounter with Ezra Taft Benson was when I was barely hanging on to the Church, and living and working in W. Germany and Switzerland during part of the time he was European Mission President, based in Frankfurt/M. He rubbed me the wrong way by the way he expressed himself. His brother Waldo Benson was Central German Mission President and I had a very pleasant and enjoyable relationship with him and his family. At that time I was totally oblivious to Ezra Taft Benson's concerns about communism and conspiracies. I had heard plenty about that from President McKay and J. Ruben Clark, and at that time I had what were to me far greater concerns. By then I had plenty of concerns about where our country was going, one seeming blunder after another that contributed to the promotion of communism and Soviet and Red Chinese interests. But it was W. Cleon Skousen, who was my landlord for a time, who put me on to the conspiracy many of us refer to as the new world order or global governance conspiracy. Without going on all nite, I'll just say I was led gradually by him and H. Verlan Andersen to the writings and talks of Ezra Taft Benson. I discovered Brother Benson was talking about a lot of the very things I had become aware of, and more imortantly, he backed up his most important statements with scripture.

As a Prophet, President Benson certainly did give us a serious warning during a 1988 conference address entitled "I testify...". As for what he said as an Apostle during conference talks, it is my understanding that all talks are approved by the First Presidency. To more fully appreciate Brother Benson, one needs to read his talks and writings, and give them careful considerations. In other words, do the homework. For those who would like more of his civic messages, these can be found in his books "The Red Carpet" (1962), "Title of Liberty" (1964), An Enemy Hath Done This" (1969), "This Nation Shall Endure" (1977). "The scriptures also tell us about our inspired Constitution. If you accept these scriptures, you will automatically reject the counsel of men who depreciate our Constitution. If you use the scriptures as a guide, you know the Book of Mormon has to say regarding murderous conspiracies in the last day and how we are to awake to our awful situation today (see Ether 8:18- 25). I find certain elements in the church do not like to read the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants so much - they have too much to say about freedom." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson" p.81) "An Enemy Hath Done This", leaves no possible room for doubt that these "Secret Combinations" have a substantial if not total control of our current government.

noel · Veteran Member

Arbi,

The other word is "necessary".

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Well lundbaek, I didn't believe the conspiracies before but then I read this web site ( http://www.geocities.com/baja/5692/ ) and now I am convinced. The truth is out there fellas. You just have to look for it. It all makes sense now. The new world order is coming people. Beware!

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Another great article on this topic:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=092006B

nutbag · Member

Satan is making war against the very foundations upon which society, government, and religion rest. He plans to destroy freedom–economic, political, and religious, and to set up in place thereof the greatest, most widespread, and most complete tyranny that has ever oppressed men. He is working under such perfect disguise that many do not recognize either him or his methods. He comes as a thief in the night; he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Without their knowing it, the people are being urged down paths that lead only to destruction.

LEVE · Veteran Member

nutbag wrote:

...He is working under such perfect disguise that many do not recognize either him or his methods. He comes as a thief in the night; he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Without their knowing it, the people are being urged down paths that lead only to destruction.

Humm... I wonder:

Kennedy Offered to Help Soviets Thwart U.S. Policies, KGB Papers Show

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hey, I wouldn't put anything past a member of the Kennedy family...

arbilad · Head Chef

Yeah, a Senator who let his date drown doesn't have any scruples whatsoever, so this doesn't surprise me.

KGB papers can be very enlightening. There were some other papers that came to light in the 90s that proved conclusively that Sen. McCarthy was right on most counts, and that there were soviet agents in the employ of the US government.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well, to play contra here for momentary illumination, I'm sure there are CIA or other US intelligence documents that will prove the same thing in converse... that we had agents at work within the Soviet Union's government and in the governments of it's satellites as well before, during, and after the period.

That little bit of information by itself doesn't prove a conspiracy exists / existed. I'm not even sure that could be considered a smoking gun. I would think it is a fact of life in the intelligence world of intelligence and counter-intelligence.

I could tell you more, but then I'd have to kill you...