Big Pharma's pushing hypnotics

lineuponline · Veteran Member

Big Pharma's pushing hypnotics

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I really have no serious opinion about hypnosis, Liner, but clearly you do. Do you think, rather than implying that there's something scary going on, you could delineate exactly what is scary or wrong with hypnosis? Is it some kind of tool of the devil? Do you think it renders a person spiritually stupid? I'm curious your opinion on the matter.

I had a friend in High School that was into self-hypnosis, and it helped him with his own sleeping habits, as I seem to recall.

--Ray

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

I know the current General Handbook states that members should be counseled to avoid hypnotism, both for therapy and for entertainment.

It was a bummer, as my wife's friend is the Great Vandermede's niece (if anyone from the SLC area knows him).

HSR

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

hypnotic drugs?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

RE: Big Pharma's pushing hypnotics

lineuponline · Veteran Member

Yes the date-rape drug is also a hypnotic.

I'm very wary of all hypnotics, and that's just it ... wary. If you think about it, almost all today's evils lead to mind-control. Obviously we know of the effects of drugs, promiscuity, alcohol, tobacco, coffee, etc., but even (certain) Rock & Roll and Rap have mind-control effects. The only real proof of this I have is mosh pits, MTV, and Pavlovian Soviet experiments. It is Lucifer's plan and goal to control the agency of man, especially man's mind, heart, and spirit! If the adversary can have full control of either the mind, heart, or spirit, one's soul is doomed until broken free.

It is well rumored that the mark of the Beast in Revelations 13:18 will also have some type of mind-control agent. Since this is Lucifer's plan, I believe he will achieve this goal just prior to Christ's Second Coming.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

liney: How exactly DO you sleep at night, if you are constantly worried about this sort of thing?

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

LIne, I still don't understand how a that helps someone sleep is tantamount to mind control. Does the pill have a subliminal message that plays in the brain while a person is under the influence?

Please explain to me how you make the jump from sedative to brain washing.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, I don't act like a chicken, I AM a chicken! Sheeesh.

arbilad · Head Chef

bokbadok wrote:

LIne, I still don't understand how a that helps someone sleep is tantamount to mind control. Does the pill have a subliminal message that plays in the brain while a person is under the influence?

Please explain to me how you make the jump from sedative to brain washing.

Actually, a trained hypnotist that was performing at a ren faire I went to said that the principles of hypnosis are used constantly by government, religion, and the media to get their point across.

Basically all hypnosis does is make you vulnerable to suggestion. Advertisers do it to influence you to buy their product.

Basically, the more sceptical you are, the worse hypnosis works.

This is all according to the professional hypnotist. His opinion may or may not be common among hypnotists.

lineuponline · Veteran Member

rayb wrote:

liney: How exactly DO you sleep at night, if you are constantly worried about this sort of thing?

LOL! Answer: very comfortably because of the knowledge that I'm not taking any sleep aids

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, does a nice cup of double strength SleepyTime herbal tea (mint and chamomile) every once in a while equate to a mind control hypnotic drug or influence since it helps one to relax and sleep? What about the Book of Isaiah or 2nd Nephi? I have found they put me to sleep too... but then again so do many of the works of Isaac Asimov...

I agree that there is too much use of pharmacueticals as sleep aides, and probably too much reliance on prescription drugs for dealing with the various learning disabilities, behavorial problems, and the like. Parents, doctors, and school administrators in general tend to put too much faith in this as the fix. But, that fact shouldn't be used to pooh-pooh the real benefit the medications do provide when used properly.

The question I have is how in the world is an online survey going to generate a prescription for a medication / controlled substance? Also, an online survey can not create a legitimate medical diagnosis. Sleeping aides are controlled substances. Hypnotics are as well.

My wife works in a pharmacy, and it is against the law to dispense prescription and controlled substances without a valid prescription. A prescription has to come from the doctor, and what this "screening" does is probably simply providing a coupon for a free trial of or x dollars off discount for the medication or they offer to pay your insurance co-pay. People still have to have a hand written prescription from their doctor. All narcotic medications must by law be hand written by the physician prescribing it.

Where is this TeenScreen collecting the $30 per child / survey from? The article you linked does not include evidence to support everything you assert.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 16:38, 2006-09-04

lineuponline · Veteran Member

Catherder, I found two sites that seem to have better info:

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/teenscreen
________________________________________________________
According to a July 11, 2005, Peoria Illinois Journal Star, in Brimfield Illinois, "organizing the system and employing a part-time counselor specifically for the program is estimated to cost about $100 per student." Overall, the "Brimfield High School program alone will cost around $20,000 for the first semester," the Journal wrote.
________________________________________________________

and this site seems to be a collection of articles on teenscreen:

http://www.psychsearch.net/teenscreen.html

The youngster is sat down and asked introverting questions such as:

Has there been a time when nothing was fun for you and you just weren't interested in anything?
Has there been a time when you felt you couldn't do anything well or that you weren't as good-looking or as smart as other people?
How often did your parents get annoyed or upset with you because of the way you were feeling or acting?
Have you often felt very nervous when you've had to do things in front of people?
Have you often worried a lot before you were going to play a sport or game or do some other activity?
Have you tried to kill yourself in the last year?
Are you still thinking of killing yourself?
Have you thought seriously about killing yourself?
Have you often thought about killing yourself??
Have you ever tried to kill yourself?

-- Edited by lineuponline at 18:33, 2006-09-04

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

so do many of the works of Isaac Asimov...

Blasphemy!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hey, I call 'em as I experience 'em, Euphi... The only Isaac Asimov I've read that hasn't created a snorefest is Lucky Starr and the Pirates of The Asteroids, and let's see, that was way back in like 7th grade?!

Line, no doubt that this TeenScreen thing is controversial, but it takes a lot more than just a clearly (at least from the sources you have provided) slanted brief survey for someone to end up with a prescription. A licensed doctor has to do the diagnosis and provide the prescription. Where the concern should be, and I doubt this is happening, is if the school itself was using this data as sufficient to diagnose and create prescriptions (which would be really bad and beyond reproach). I think the costs that are being referenced appear to be program costs to the school district, not a tax payer payment for someone else's prescriptions. A public school district does indeed get most of it's operating funds from the property tax revenue or whatever taxation system set up in the state / community, but if one doesn't like how a school district is spending money, then that is a matter for local political activity with facts to show why the district is wrong for spending it that way, not necessarily a justification to promote some vast capitalist pig conspiracy theory that is set on destroying all youth in it's path.

I would personally be kind of skeptical of both the websites you provided and what their agenda is, at least as much as I would be about the whole TeenScreen thing itself. But thanks for providing some more detail to the viewpoint.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It might be a derail, but I'm still confused about hypnosis. Can someone explain to me what hyponsis does and how it applies to the choices we make?

I've seen comments about how advertisers use it. Can someone explain to me HOW they use it? Give me a real example? Are they the flashy colors and the loud voice shouting, "Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!"

I've heard many songs that have been called "suggestive". What makes them suggestive? Is it the implied "You can do it with me, baby!" where the "You" implies the person listening?

This intrigues me.

--Ray

lineuponline · Veteran Member

Cat Herder wrote:

Where the concern should be, and I doubt this is happening, is if the school itself was using this data as sufficient to diagnose and create prescriptions (which would be really bad and beyond reproach).

Yes that is the primary concern, and THE question ... which I have no answer yet. Yet overall the LAST thing I want is Big Pharma getting bigger by reaching out our children by mandatory checkups at public schools ... at the expense of tax-payer $ (local or otherwise).

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

It might be a derail, but I'm still confused about hypnosis. Can someone explain to me what hyponsis does and how it applies to the choices we make?

I've seen comments about how advertisers use it. Can someone explain to me HOW they use it? Give me a real example? Are they the flashy colors and the loud voice shouting, "Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!"

I've heard many songs that have been called "suggestive". What makes them suggestive? Is it the implied "You can do it with me, baby!" where the "You" implies the person listening?

This intrigues me.

--Ray

Ray, the way the hypnotist at the Ren Faire explained it (and I realize that this is third hand info) is that hypnotism depends on putting the person into a hypnotic state, where that person's mind is open to suggestion. He said that you frequently enter a hypnotic state when driving; your mind just checks out and does things automatically. Unfortunately I don't have any specific examples of advertising that is hypnotic. I have done no more research into the area than what the hypnotist explained. But doesn't your mind frequently check out when watching television? That sounds like the hypnotic state that the hypnotist described. Then their suggestions gain more force, because your mind is open to them.
I don't think any advertisers use hypnosis to the level of forcing you to buy their product. But next time you're looking for a product of that type, the suggestion lodged in your brain might influence you to buy the one advertised. I have heard that people who do things that they were hypnotically programmed to do, such as quack like a duck, frequently don't realize that what they're doing is weird, or that they were programmed to do it. They think it was their idea.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hrmm... I could think having a wife open to hypnotic suggestion could be useful...

>go fix your husband a sandwich!<

>time to reshingle the roof!<

>mow the lawn!<

>write my talk for church...<

>time for luvin!<

Hrm... I'm having difficulty seeing a downside. Sure there's that whole free-agency thing to consider... but that's highly overrated! Most of us give that up in our teenage years!

--Ray

lineuponline · Veteran Member

arbilad wrote:

I have heard that people who do things that they were hypnotically programmed to do, such as quack like a duck, frequently don't realize that what they're doing is weird, or that they were programmed to do it. They think it was their idea.

Wow! And yet somehow, I know intuitively this statement is true. I think I'm beginning to fully understand why the Mark of the Beast (Revelations 13:18) is so horrid.

arbilad · Head Chef

I came upon a reference to hypnosis in the Dilbert Blog. This is the relevant quote:

Several years ago I was approached by some advisors for people in high places. I can’t give you the details of this story, or even tell you why I can’t give you the details. But the gist of it was that they needed help squelching some bad ideas that had taken hold in the public consciousness. They thought humor might be one part of the solution, and they were Dilbert fans, so they tracked me down. The challenge was that the bad ideas sounded terrific to the uninformed person. You couldn’t kill these particular bad ideas with logic because the arguments against them would be too complicated. You had to go in through the back door.

I suggested a few cleverly designed, hypnosis-inspired phrases that were the linguistic equivalent of Kung Fu. They were simple (that’s my specialty), and once you heard these phrases, they made any competing ideas seem frankly stupid. Think of Johnny Cochran’s famous refrain “If the glove doesn’t fit, you must acquit.” In my opinion, O.J. is a free man largely because of that phrase. My phrases worked the same way.

The people in high places tried my phrases. The phrases became world headlines the next day. I could tune the TV to any news channel and hear my words coming out of pundits’ mouths. The phrases smothered the competing ideas and just maybe changed the course of world events. (One can never know for sure.)

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Some prescribed drugs can have mind altering or mood changing effects. Back when I thought I was indestructible and found karate to be a worthwhile pursuit I would often get injuries: Twisted knee, broken wrist, cracked ribs, twisted ankles, bloody nose, bloody lip, etc. My wife being the saint that she is never seemed to complain. One time I was given an anti-inflamatory that actually made me depressed and mean. It came on slowly over the course of a couple days so I didn't notice it. I was a downright jerk and felt just awful. Finally we did some research on the side effects of this anti-inflamatory and learned that it some people who took it had this problem. I discontinued using that anti-inflamatory immediatly. It was quickly rectified with a call to the doctor and a change of prescription was made. My wife was very pleased after I returned to my old self. My best friend the doctor told me that all prescription drugs have side effects, all of them. They may or may not show up in different people. For most people though the benefits of the drugs far outway the risks of side effects. Most should be looked on as gifts from our Heavenly Father to help us in mortality. Because there are risks though you should never take one without a doctor's care prescription.

Now as for hypnosis. From what I learned from the guy at the county fair who had quite a good show. He had done it professionally for many years both on stage and to help people quit smoking, etc. He said that no one can be hypnotized unless they want to be. Thus you have to be willing to be hypnotized. No one can come up to you and start talking slowly while swinging a BeeGee's signiture edition 1976 gold medalion in front of you. I added the gold medalion part. He also said that he could not hypnotise you to do something you were not already pre-disposed to do. In other words, he couldn't hypnotize a moral person to go out and become permiscuous or a person who was a peaceful person into becoming violent and hurting others. Most people on a dare would do the silly tricks on the stage anyway so it wasn't a stretch for them.

Interesting topic!

arbilad · Head Chef

True, you are not going to make someone do something against their nature. But you can influence in other ways what they would be willing to do. I would venture to say, for instance, that the majority of the population 50 years ago would not have been inclined towards promiscuity. But now the majority is, because of popularization of sex in common culture, freely available pornography, etc. So a hypnotic suggestion to sleep with as many people as possible would have a much larger effect than it would have 50 years ago.
Of course, most people are hard to hypnotize. The figure I saw in the Dilbert Blog was that only 20% are easily susceptible to hypnosis. However, this percentage can be used to influence others. An extreme example is found in the book When the Tripods Came, where an alien race which is not technologically advanced enough to defeat the Earth militarily decides to use their mind control technology to enslave us. They start out with a television program that uses hypnotic principles to influence a strong following. These people are told that they must obey the Tripods. It doesn't effect most people that way, though. So the aliens meet large groups of those who were hypnotized and give them special hats that will control their minds and the minds of those who weren't hypnotized by altering brain waves. I'm vastly oversimplifying it. But the upshot is that, once having gotten a foothold by hypnotizing part of the population, they were able to use that to take over.
I'm not suggesting that anyone's going to start handing out mind control hats (and no, I don't own a tin foil hat), but a vocal minority can have a strong influence. Look how few people in the population are gay. They're not very many, but they have a strong influence on politics. Homosexuals say that they are 10% of the population, but I think it's probably closer to 2%. Besides, not even all homosexuals are outspoken politically.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I see this sort of thing all the time in politics. Typically it comes out almost IMMEDIATELY after a newstory breaks.

I've always wondered if this is one of the hidden powers of a lie. If a mere suggestion or word has power over us... and to what degree...

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think the Amish Gunman was acting under hypnosis.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

arbilad wrote:

True, you are not going to make someone do something against their nature. But you can influence in other ways what they would be willing to do. I would venture to say, for instance, that the majority of the population 50 years ago would not have been inclined towards promiscuity. But now the majority is, because of popularization of sex in common culture, freely available pornography, etc. So a hypnotic suggestion to sleep with as many people as possible would have a much larger effect than it would have 50 years ago.

Perhaps, but I think that says more about the world than hypnosis. A person who is a good member of the church striving to live the gospel probably wouldn't have a problem.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Riiiiiiiiiight... that's why half the members of the church are addicted to internet porn...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

Riiiiiiiiiight... that's why half the members of the church are addicted to internet porn...

Only half? Notice I said that those who should have no problems would be a "good member of the church striving to live the gospel". Looking at porn is not "striving to live the gospel".