Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Questions about powers of president or tyrant


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 241
Date:
Questions about powers of president or tyrant


Mitt Romney's pursuit of tyrannical power, literally

The candidate's answers to key questions of executive power are beyond disturbing.

Glenn Greenwald

Dec. 23, 2007 | In yet another superb piece of journalism, the peerless Charlie Savage of The Boston Globe submitted to the leading presidential candidates a questionnaire asking their views on 12 key questions regarding executive power. Savage's article accompanying the candidates' responses makes clear why these matters are so critical:

In 2000, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were not asked about presidential power, and they volunteered nothing about their attitude toward the issue to voters. Yet once in office, they immediately began seeking out ways to concentrate more unchecked power in the White House -- not just for themselves, but also for their successors. . . .

Legal specialists say decisions by the next president -- either to keep using the expanded powers Bush and Cheney developed, or to abandon their legal and political precedents -- will help determine whether a stronger presidency becomes permanent.

"The sleeper issue in this campaign involves the proper scope of executive power," said Richard Epstein, a University of Chicago law professor.

All of the leading Democrats -- Edwards, Dodd, Biden, Clinton, Richardson and Obama -- submitted responses, as did Mitt Romney, John McCain and Ron Paul. Refusing to respond to the questions were -- revealingly -- Giuliani, Thompson and Huckabee. Significantly, if not surprisingly, all of the candidates who did respond, with the exception of Romney, repudiated most of the key doctrines of the Bush/Cheney/Addington/Yoo theories of executive omnipotence, at least for purposes of this questionnaire. I'll undoubtedly write more about those responses shortly.

But by far the most extraordinary answers come from Mitt Romney. Romney's responses -- not to some of the questions but to every single one of them -- are beyond disturbing. The powers he claims the President possesses are definitively -- literally -- tyrannical, unrecognizable in the pre-2001 American system of government and, in some meaningful ways, even beyond what the Bush/Cheney cadre of authoritarian legal theorists have claimed.

After reviewing those responses, Marty Lederman concluded: "Romney? Let's put it this way: If you've liked Dick Cheney and David Addington, you're gonna love Mitt Romney." Anonymous Liberal similarly observed that his responses reveal that "Romney doesn't believe the president's power to be subject to any serious constraints." To say that the President's powers are not "subject to any serious constraints" -- which is exactly what Romney says -- is, of course, to posit the President as tyrant, not metaphorically or with hyperbole, but by definition.

Each of the questions posed by Savage is devoted to determining the extent of presidential power the candidate believes exists and where the limits are situated. On every issue, Romney either (a) explicitly says that the President has the right to act without limits of any kind or (b) provides blatantly nonresponsive answers strongly insinuating the same thing.

Just go and read what he wrote. It's extraordinary. Other than his cursory and quite creepy concession that U.S. citizens detained by the President are entitled to "at least some type of habeas corpus relief" -- whatever "some type" might mean (Question 5) -- Romney does not recognize a single limit on presidential power. Not one.

And even with regard to his grudging allowance that American citizens should have "some type of habeas relief," Romney -- and only he -- implicitly endorses Alberto Gonzales' bizarre claim that -- despite the clear language of Article I, Section 9 -- "nothing in the Constitution confers an affirmative right to habeas corpus" (Question 9). Under this twisted Romney/Gonzales view, the right of habeas corpus -- which Thomas Jefferson described as "one of the essential principles of our government" and "the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution" -- is not constitutionally guaranteed to Americans but can be revoked at any time, for any reason.

In every area, Romney explicitly says that neither laws nor treaties can limit the President's conduct. Instead, displaying the fear-mongering cowardice that lies at the heart of Bush/Cheney Republican power, Romney described the root of his view of the world this way: "Our most basic civil liberty is the right to be kept alive."

Romney recited that cowardly platitude -- what has now become the shameful flagship of the Republican Party -- in response to being asked whether the President has the power to eavesdrop on Americans without warrants even in the face of a law that makes it a crime to do so. At its core, the defining principle of the Republican Party continues to be a fear-driven repudiation of the American ethos as most famously expressed by Patrick Henry, all in service of keeping the citizenry in fear so the President can rule without limits.

These are just some of the powers which Romney -- and, among the respondents, Romney alone -- claimed the President possesses, either by explicitly claiming them or refusing to repudiate them when asked directly:

* to eavesdrop on Americans with no warrants, even if doing so is in violation of Congressional law (Question 1);

* to attack Iran without Congressional authorization, even in the absence of an imminent threat (Question 2);

* to disregard a congressional statute limiting the deployment of troops (Question 3);

* to issue a signing statement reserving a constitutional right to bypass laws enacted by Congress (Question 4);

* to disregard international human rights treaties that the US Senate has ratified where said treaties, in his view, "impinge upon the President's constitutional authority" (Question 8)

Even more disturbing were the specific questions Romney refused to answer. When asked if the President has the right to use "interrogation techniques" that Congress, by law, has prohibited in all circumstances, here is what Romney said (Question 7):
A President should decline to reveal the method and duration of interrogation techniques to be used against high value terrorists who are likely to have counter-interrogation training. This discretion should extend to declining to provide an opinion as to whether Congress may validly limit his power as to the use of a particular technique, especially given Congress's current plans to try to do exactly that.
Mitt Romney is running for President and proudly refuses to say if he would obey the law regarding torture. Worse, he's citing national security as an excuse for refusing to answer the question. He's not even President yet, and he's already insisting that it's too Top Secret for him even to participate in the debate over the President's duties to abide by the law. Even considering where our country has been taken with these matters, that's an astonishing assertion -- that the Terrorists will win if Mitt Romney expresses his views on whether the President must obey the law.

Underscoring his authoritarian mentality, Romney refused to say that there was even a single "executive power the Bush administration has claimed or exercised that [he] think[s] is unconstitutional" or even that there were any which were "simply a bad idea" (Question 10). In Romney's view, the Leader has not erred at all. Rather, this is the caricature of a response he gave to that question:

The Bush Administration has kept the American people safe since 9/11. The Administration's strong view on executive power may well have contributed to that fact.
Romney perfectly expresses the driving view of our GOP-dominated political culture over the last seven years, as profoundly un-American as it is Orwellian: You are in grave danger of being slaughtered by Terrorists. The only thing that matters is that your Leader protect you. In order to be safe, you must place your blind faith and trust in the Leader. There can be no limits on the Leader's power -- not even ones you try to place on him through your representatives in Congress -- otherwise you will be in severe danger and might even lose your freedoms.

In a Washington Post Op-Ed this morning, historian and George Washington biographer Joseph Ellis labels Dick Cheney's quest for limitless presidential power "historically myopic" and writes:

Your opinion on the current debate about how much power the executive branch should have will be significantly influenced if you read the debates about the subject in the Constitutional Convention and the states' ratifying conventions. For it will soon become clear that the most palpable fear that haunted all these debates was the specter of monarchy.
Although one would not have thought it possible, a Mitt Romney presidency, by his own description, would remove us still further from those core principles. Romney isn't running to be President, but to be King. Anyone who wants to dispute that ought to try to distinguish the fantasies of power Romney is envisioning from those the British King possessed in the mid-to-late 18th Century.

__________________


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 538
Date:

sleep.gif

__________________
Jason (Formerly salesortonscom)

As I walk through this earth, nothing can stop, the Duke of Mirth!


Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

bored.gif

__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 268
Date:

blahblah.gif spammer.gifblahblah.gif

bored.gif

sleep.gif

__________________
I'm too lazy to come up with a creative sig!


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1760
Date:

Speaking of tyranny...



SOCIALISM ROYAL ROAD TO POWER FOR THE SUPER-RICH

Everyone knows that Adolph Hitler existed. No one disputes that. The terror and destruction that this madman inflicted upon the world are universally recognized. Hitler came from a poor family which had absolutely no social position. He was a high school drop-out and nobody ever accused him of being cultured. Yet this man tried to conquer the world. During his early career he sat in a cold garret and poured onto paper his ambitions to rule the world. We know that.

Similarly, we know that a man named Vladimir Ilich Lenin also existed. Like Hitler, Lenin did not spring from a family of social lions. The son of a petty bureaucrat, Lenin, who spent most of his adult life in poverty, has been responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of your fellow human beings and the enslavement of nearly a billion more. Like Hitler, Lenin sat up nights in a dank garret scheming how he could conquer the world. We know that too.

Is it not theoretically possible that a billionaire could be sitting, not in a garret, but in a penthouse, in Manhattan, London or Paris and dream the same dream as Lenin and Hitler? You will have to admit it is theoretically possible. Julius Caesar, a wealthy aristocrat, did. And such a man might form an alliance or association with other like-minded men, might he not? Caesar did. These men would be superbly educated, command immense social prestige and be able to pool astonishing amounts of money to carry out their purposes. These are advantages that Hitler and Lenin did not have.

It is difficult for the average individual to fathom such perverted lust for power. The typical person, of whatever nationality, wants only to enjoy success in his job, to be able to afford a reasonably high standard of living complete with leisure and travel. He wants to provide for his family in sickness and in health and to give his children a sound education. His ambition stops there. He has no desire to exercise power over others, to conquer other lands or peoples, to be a king. He wants to mind his own business and enjoy life. Since he has no lust for power, it is difficult for him to imagine that there are others who have others who march to a far different drum. But we must realize that there have been Hitlers and Lenins and Stalins and Caesars and Alexander the Greats throughout history. Why should we assume there are no such men today with perverted lusts for power? And if these men happen to be billionaires is it not possible that they would use men like Hitler and Lenin as pawns to seize power for themselves?


__________________

Why Food Storage:
http://www.rogmo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=205&sid=d52b2e6d8f75be0a6164ab9a14f4a08b



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 254
Date:

So, one group says that Romney claims too much executive power. Another group says that he didn't use enough of his executive power as governor to implement the policies that they favored, and to stop the policies they disagreed with.

Or are both groups one and the same?

???

__________________


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1288
Date:

I can only come to one conclusion. Glenn Greenwald is mercifully free of the ravages of rational thought.

That has to be the most unfair hack job I have ever read. It is just as bad as some of the anti-mormon misinformation that I have come across, worse yet, there are members of the Church that are buying into this blatant filth.

Having read the article in the Boston Globe, anyone can see that Greenwald's interpretation of what Mitt said goes WAY, way over the line of truth, reason and rational thinking.

I am both appalled and shocked that there are folks that actually buy into what he writes.

Mitt wants to follow the Constitution plain and simple.




-- Edited by Mahonri at 19:20, 2007-12-25

__________________
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done


Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

So wait, Lenin and Hitler were poor men populists... but Romney's an evil rich dude who doesn't relate to the common man.

__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 385
Date:

With very few exceptions, any person seeking for political office lusts after power or will eventually lust after the power and abuse it. That is why we must be vigilent and ensure that the checks and balances are maintained.

__________________

Bass Couplers are for wimps



Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 538
Date:

Like term limits?

__________________
Jason (Formerly salesortonscom)

As I walk through this earth, nothing can stop, the Duke of Mirth!


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 876
Date:

I used to think the idea of just any person seeking for political office eventually lusting after the power and/or prestige was hogwash. But it's not. I won't say it's a sure thing in every case. But it is a real danger, and I've noted it in cases that I've been close to. In 2003 - 2004 I considered running for Congress, and as I got into it I noted the tremendous pressures put on candidates as well as incumbents to propose, promote and support programs and legislation that I considered immoral and unconstitutional. The LDS congressman I considered challenging is still in office, but has proposed, promoted and supported programs and legislation that I would expect a LDS congressman would consider immoral and/or unconstitutional. And I've told him and others so. I have a tendancy to do that. The worst thing they do, it seems, is support certain programs and legislation that violate the "Golden Rule" by ultimately, one way or another, taking property in one form or another from one person and giving it to someone else.

__________________


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1288
Date:

I know the LDS Congressman you are talking about. He promised to only serve two or three terms and then he changed his mind. His wife has always bothered me because she claims to be LDS but the dresses she wears at fund-raising events aren't compatible with clothing she's covenanted to wear in the Temple. I helped to get him elected and then the boundaries changed. I'm in Shadegg's district now. He also promised to serve just three terms and those 6 years ended 10 years ago.

And I have to agree with Organist... I've known few politicians who weren't extremely into themselves. Matt Salmon would be the exception.

__________________
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 876
Date:

That guy did turn out to be a real flake. The congressional representatives in my lifetime I have the highest regard for are Ron Paul and Larry McDonald ( a flaming democrat, would you believe )

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 494
Date:

Organist wrote:

With very few exceptions, any person seeking for political office lusts after power or will eventually lust after the power and abuse it. That is why we must be vigilent and ensure that the checks and balances are maintained.



maybe we should be vigilent and ensure that any person seeking for political office should just be stopped entirely. . .  surely that should stop lusting for power if they can't get any. biggrin

__________________


Future Queen in Zion

Status: Offline
Posts: 3155
Date:

"Psst! Hey, you!"

"Yeah?"

"You wanna be POTUS?"

"No way!"

"Good. The job is yours."

Much weeping and gnashing of teeth.


__________________

"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton



Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1760
Date:

If only...

__________________

Why Food Storage:
http://www.rogmo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=205&sid=d52b2e6d8f75be0a6164ab9a14f4a08b



Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

I served a mission with a relative of the flaky congressman. The person I served with was an excellent all around guy, and I can't say enough good about the character of that elder.
About the flake himself, I have very little knowledge of him. But I thought that he was against earmarks. I don't remember the rest of his positions, but surely being against earmarks is a good thing.

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 876
Date:

I met Jeff Flake at a rally behind the Mesa, AZ public library that kicked off his first campaign for the House of Representatives. I asked him then how serious he was about uphollding the US Constituion. He evaded the subject, and me thereafter. I supported and voted for Tom Liddy (non-LDS and son of Gordon Liddy) in that election because he at least referred to the Constitution with respect. Flake made a big appeal to the LDS community with his campaign signs sporting a large photo of him and his family all dressed in white and "Family Values" written on them. When I considered running against him in 2004 my intent was to literally shame the LDS community into recognizing how they had, in continuing to vote for Flake, contributed to the shredding of our Constitution. A friend later asked Jeff why, as a LDS, he did not abide completely by the Constitution as a congressman, and said Jeff told him he does not let religion interfere with his congressional responsibilites.

I was never bothered, as was Mahonri, by his continuing in Congress longer than he had originally committed. If the people of his district still are happy with him, I guess he's entitled to stay in Congress longer.

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date:

Tyranny and Pres Bush...did they meet?

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/ATT_engineer_says_Bush_Administration_sought_1216.html


__________________
FREEDOM & EDUCATIONAL RESOURCE www.hiddentreasure.ws


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1288
Date:

What a joke.

Taking statistics does not spying make.

__________________
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard