Children get it..do you?

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

Children get it..do you?

DaKnife · Senior Member

for example from the linked fictional story In July of 2000, I infiltrated what can be called the mother ship of the Order of Death, the Bohemian Grove. This is the same place where Reagan decided to call SDI "Star Wars." Major California papers have reported on the rumors that world leaders meet there and perform bizarre black magic rituals to the Caananite deity that represented death, Moloch.

Seriously, Just because the movies use this theme, does not mean Bush or anyone else is trying to turn this country into a dictatorship. A little thing called the constitution blocks that. And while yes aspects of the constitution could be suspended with a declaration of Martial law, it ain't going to last. You want to look at someone trying to become a dictator look at Hugo Chavez.

He's tried to rewrite their constitution, and since that failed, I would expect him
to try to find a reason to suspend it next. Nobody here has tried either tactic.

The people won't stand for it. And most of all, the military won't stand for it. Our military is made up of people who understand and love this country and it's constitution. And they will not follow through with what the idiot who wrote that "article" proposes.

This is not post WWI Germany, we are not on the path to a dictatorship.

Oh and what the heck do children have to do with this. I skimmed the article quickly but other than the fact that the author cited many movies, including kids movies, if there was a reference to children knowing anything I didn't see it.

-- Edited by arbilad at 15:03, 2007-12-27

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I guess I'm stoopid, because I don't get it.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

FWIW, I don't think Reagan EVER called SDI "Star Wars." That was an invention by the drive-by media.

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

The Constitution blocking dictatorship? Not hardly! How can it when it's shredded and hanging by a thread ? A few examples:

The Congress shall have Power To:

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; ---
Since before WW1 a private concern known as the Federal Reserve has had the power and authority to coin money, and believe me, it does. Thats why, for example, the $US has about 1/10 the purchasing power that it had 50 years ago.

"To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; ---
What the Fed does amounts to counterfeiting money, creating it at the behest of private interests. Private citizens risk imprisonment for doing on a smaller scale that which the Fed does on a grand scale.

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; ---
The last time Congress declared war was WW2. According to Mitt Romney, the president now only needs to consult with lawyers. And Congress does not have the right to give that power to the President, as has happened. And the Constitution does not allow going to war in response to a United Nations mandate, as has been done.

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; ---
The USA is being invaded by illegal immigrants and the President, among others, is actually hindering efforts to stop the invasion.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. (10. Amendment) ---
This means the FedGov is not supposed to do anything not permitted it by the Constitution and the amendments. This includes foreign aid, welfare, interfering with public schools, and restricting medications, among other things.

DaKnife · Senior Member

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Lund: Good thing that prophecy of "Hanging by a thread" states the Elders of the church will save it... and what better than an actual Elder as candidate for President!

GOOOOOO Mitt!!!!
--Ray

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

hiddentreasuredotws wrote:
Interesting article........

It's not so much an interesting article, as it is just one of the thousands of windows into the thought processes of conspiracy theorists.

And it's really no different than any other window, be it 9/11 truthers, John Birch commie-watchers, anti-Bilderbergers, Davinci Codists, UFO zealots, Remote-viewing shadow warriors, George Nooryites, or the people that encourage and believe this lady.

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 15:29, 2007-12-19

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

ew.

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Cool Lizard People!!! I heard about those on the Coast to Coast late night radio show with George Noory!

But Loud, you forgot about the Masonic Conspiracy being perpetrated by shriners. Those old guys on their little cars are plotting to take over the world!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Shush, Duke. Only the inner circle know the elect still are Masons.

alabamabelle · Senior Member

mason . . . jars?

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Duke of Mirth wrote:
But Loud, you forgot about the Masonic Conspiracy being perpetrated by shriners. Those old guys on their little cars are plotting to take over the world!

Yes, well. As a son of a oodlth-degree Mason and raised next door to a Shriner, I gotta be careful what I say.

LM
(They both also belonged to a Moose Lodge if I remember correctly)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

my dad's part of the conspiracy. He had three sons born in may. They are his may-sons...

--Ray :)

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Actually the prophecy said "if" it be saved.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

yeah, and that's cuz there are some members who refuse to support the Elders in their efforts to save the Constitution by electing Mitt.

--Ray

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

Lund: Good thing that prophecy of "Hanging by a thread" states the Elders of the church will save it... and what better than an actual Elder as candidate for President!

GOOOOOO Mitt!!!!
--Ray

Prophecy of Joseph Smith, according to Orson Hyde: The time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and . . . if the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.

(Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p. 152, January 3, 1858)

Careful of this one... Skousen quoted it...

Prophecy of Joseph Smith (March 10, 1844):

Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.

(Source: Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844; D. Michael Stewart, Ensign, Vol. 6, No. 6, June 1976, pp. 64-65; See also, W. Cleon Skousen, "Prophecy and the Constitution," Audio Tape, 90 min., Ensign Publishing Company, Distributed by Sounds of Zion, Sandy, Utah.)

Prophecy of Joseph Smith, according to Brigham Young:

The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.

(Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 15, July 4, 1854)

Another Prophecy of John Taylor (1879):

We have got this kingdom to build up; and it is not a phantom, but a reality. We have to do it, God expects it at our hands . . . We have got to go on and progress in these things. We have got to establish a government upon the principle of righteousness, justice, truth and equality and not according to the many false notions that exist among men. And then the day is not far distant when this nation will be shaken from centre to circumference. And now, you may write it down, any of you, and I will prophesy it in the name of God. And then will be fulfilled the prediction to be found in one of the revelations given through the prophet Joseph Smith. Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety. And they will come, saying, we do not know anything of the principles of your religion, but we perceive that you are an honest community; you administer justice and righteousness, and we want to live with you and receive the protection of your laws, but as for your religion we will talk about that some other time. Will we protect such people? Yes, all honorable men. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.

(Source: Journal of Discourses, 21:8)

Uh oh...conspiracy talk on these two:

Prophecy of Wilford Woodruff:

The Congress of 1862, and the Supreme Judges of 1879, in their acts and decisions, have taken a dangerous and fearful step; their acts will sap the very foundation of our government, and it will rent asunder, and the God of heaven will hold them responsible for these things, for 'what men sow they will reap, and the measure they mete unto others will be meted unto them', saith the Lord. The Constitution once broken by the rulers of the land, there will be no stopping place until the nation is broken in pieces, and no power beneath the heavens can save this nation from the consequences thereof.

(Source: Millennial Star, 41:243)

Prophecy of Moses Thatcher (an early apostle):

I have seen the end of this nation and it is terrible . . . I will tell you in the name of the Lord that a secret band will sap the life of this nation.

(Source: Franklin Ward Historical Record, Franklin, Idaho. June 16, 1882; Crowther, Duane S., Prophecy-- Key to the Future, p. 53, Bookcraft, SLC, 1962)

Another Prophecy of Wilford Woodruff (1880):

The Lord . . . poured out His spirit upon me and opened the vision of my mind so that I could comprehend in a great measure the mind and will of God concerning the nation and concerning the inhabitants of Zion. I saw the wickedness of the nation, its abominations and corruptions and the judgments of God and the destruction that awaited it . . . On January 18th I was again given in a vision. It concerned the destiny of our nation and of Zion. My pillow was again wet by a fountain of tears as I beheld the judgments of God upon the wicked. I was strongly impressed that the Apostles and elders should warn the inhabitants of the earth.

(Source: Matthias F. Cowley, Wilford Woodruff, p. 393. SLC, Deseret News, 1916)

Statement of Erastus Snow:

We were told by the prophet Joseph Smith, that the United States Government and people would undermine one principle of the Constitution after another, until its whole fabric would be torn away, and that it would become the duty of the Latter-day Saints and those in sympathy with them to rescue it from destruction, and to maintain and sustain the principles of human freedom for which our fathers fought and bled. We look for these things to come in quick succession.

(Source: Journal of Discourses, vol. 26, p. 226, May 31, 1885)

More conspiracies......
Statement of Charles W. Nibley:

My brethren and sisters, I hope that we will go home from this Conference determined as a great body of people, to stand for law, order, righteousness, justice and peace on earth and good will among all men. I believe as the Prophet Joseph has written, that the day would come when there would be so much of disorder, of secret combinations taking the law into their own hands, tramping upon Constitutional rights and the liberties of the people, that the Constitution would hang as by a thread. Yes, but it will still hang, and there will be enough of good people, many who may not belong to our Church at all, people who have respect for law and for order, and for Constitutional rights, who will rally around with us and save the Constitution. I have never read that that thread would be cut. It will hang; the Constitution will abide and this civilization, that the Lord has caused to be built up, will stand fortified through the power of God, by putting from our hearts all that is evil, or that is wrong in the sight of God, by our living as we should live, acceptable to him.

(Source: Conference Report, October 1922, p.40)

Another statement by Charles W. Nibley:

Brethren and sisters, let me say in closing that we have it of record, that the prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands, not being governed by law or by due process of law, but becoming a law unto themselves, when, by those disintegrating activities, the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would he held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread. But he never said, so far as I have heard, that that thread would be cut. I believe, with Elder Richards, that this Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what this people, through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission. That also is what we are help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission. That also is what we are here for. I glory in it. I praise God with all my heart and soul that I am a member of it.

(Source: Conference Report, October 1923, p.62)

Statement of Rex E. Lee:

A final area of constitutional interest unique to Latter-day Saints finds its source in the well-known "hanging by a thread" statements by the Prophet Joseph Smith. Similar statements have been reiterated by no fewer than six of his successors, including the current prophet . . . But in none of those quotations . . . has any Church leader ever been very specific as to the metaphor's meaning.

Unfortunately, some members of the Church have been all too ready to offer their own explanations. The only thing consistent about these explanations is that in each instance, it was the Church member's own unresolved, often very private, grievance that supplied evidence that the thread was beginning to fray, sometimes beyond repair . . .

In my view, this is another instance in which going beyond what our leaders have said can be misleading at best, and potentially fraught with mischief. Even though we have not been given the exact meaning of the prophets' statements about the Constitution hanging by a thread, the scriptures do define the conditions on which freedom in the land of America ultimately depends. I am satisfied that whatever else may eventually hang in the constitutional balance, this much is clear: The continuation of the blessings of liberty depends finally on our spiritual righteousness. As the Lord told the Jaredites in the Book of Ether, this is a "land of promise." And "whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, . . . if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ." If the people fail to keep this covenant, they "shall be swept off when the fullness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fullness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity" (Ether 2:9-12).

(Source: Rex E. Lee, The Constitution and the Restoration, BYU Speeches, 1991.)

Statement of Eliza R. Snow, Ogden, Utah, 1871:

I heard the prophet say, The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saintsthe Elders of Israelwill step forward to its rescue and save it. (Journal History, MSF 143 #28, July 24, 1871; D. Michael Stewart, Ensign, June 1976.)

Statement of Jedediah M. Grant to Mormon Battalion, February 6, 1855, Salt Lake City:

What did the Prophet Joseph say? When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe. (Deseret News Weekly, January 19, 1870; D. Michael Stewart, Ensign, June 1976.)

There are lots more...but this is sufficient I suppose.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

yeah, and that's cuz there are some members who refuse to support the Elders in their efforts to save the Constitution by electing Mitt.

--Ray

I think I'm supposed to use this icon here. or was it this one

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You know, who is to say that maybe the Civil War was not the crisis upon which the Constitution was hanging... and because the Saints were not involved, it had a positive effect in the war ending instead of dragging on and on until the whole nation was ravaged...

Just a thought. Of course, I think that the maybe some of these prophecies or warnings are more timed for the building of the City of Zion and closer to the general sifting of the righteous from the wicked before the Second Coming.

Other than that, I will use the following icon to this whole topic...

and you know what that means...

Everyone! Riverdance!

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Imagine having Mitt chose the next two or three Supreme Court Justices?

How exciting!!

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:

You know, who is to say that maybe the Civil War was not the crisis upon which the Constitution was hanging...

Probably the fact that prophets AFTER the end of the Civil War have continued to quote the hanging by a thread prophecy.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Go Mitt! Save the Constitution!!! ;)

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

mirkwood wrote:

Cat Herder wrote:

You know, who is to say that maybe the Civil War was not the crisis upon which the Constitution was hanging...

Probably the fact that prophets AFTER the end of the Civil War have continued to quote the hanging by a thread prophecy.

But what if it was not a prophecy? Simply a warning? Looking at the time line of the statements made and who made them, Joseph was martyred within months after uttering the statement he made (so further elaboration / explanation is lacking), and he did not say the Constitution would hang by a thread. He said the nation would be on the brink of ruin and that the Saints would be the basis upon which liberty would rest... Orson Hyde's and Brigham Young's statements some 10 - 15 years later were the ones that tied the Constitution to what would be hanging by a thread (again, this is still several years before the Civil War)...

Then after the Civil War, John Taylor (the bold part you referenced) and Wilford Woodruff both seem to be talking about the people -- by their wickedness -- would essentially have made the liberties of the Constitution moot and that the Saints again would be the ones that would be holding out the promise of liberty to those who really desired it. I'm curious though, what the contemporary events were going on in 1879 and 1880 that would have contributed to an environment where these statements were uttered by two apostles? (We can't really consider the statements to be prophecy in the sense of The Lord's Prophet stating a "Thus Saith The Lord" doctrinal statement from the pulpit because there was no president of the church from Brigham Young's death in 1877 until October 1880 when John Taylor was set apart and ordained as Prophet Seer and Revelator and President of The Church) Maybe the struggle to gain statehood for Utah colored some of the statements, which took over 4 decades and bitterness between mormons and non-mormons was really heating up in the late 1870's and early 1880's over the issue of statehood?

Just a thought...

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

How can Mitt Romney get the country back on the constitution track if he cannot or will not abide by it himself?

O Mitt, that thou mightest be like unto Congressman Ron Paul, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandment of the Lord to befriend the US Constitution!

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Mahonri wrote:

Imagine having Mitt chose the next two or three Supreme Court Justices?

How exciting!!

Not if (like Scalia, et al) they continue to allow degradation of our 4th ammendment rights, continue to weaken habeus corpus, and continue to support the likes of Gitmo.

I mean, sure I'd like to see the end of abortion, but not at the expense of actual freedoms that I cherish.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Not sure I see how the war on terror has degraded our 4th ammendment rights. It is not like the things -- wiretaps, etc. -- are being done without the probable cause being shown or having the legal documents in place to do them. Have there probably been cases where stuff was done before that was in place? Yes, but it is being dealt with.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hey Cat does Elder Packer count as a modern day apostle? It seems to me that an apostle in 2004 referencing the same quote pokes a hole in the idea that it has already happened.

Statement of Boyd K. Packer (2004):

When Moroni was translating the twenty-four gold plates, he interrupted his narrative to speak directly to us in our day. He told of the Gadiantons and their bands (in our day we would call them gangs):

Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [that is us], it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, ...

[He then warned us in unmistakable plainness]: Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; ...

Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved (Ether 8:2324, 26).

When the Saints in Missouri were suffering great persecutions, the Lord said that the Constitution of the United States was given that every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him. [Notice that it does not say free agency, it says moral agency. The agency we have is a moral agency.] ...

For this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood (D&C 101:78, 80; emphasis added).

The present major political debate centers on values and morals and the Constitution.

There occurs from time to time reference to the Constitution hanging by a thread. President Brigham Young said:

The general Constitution of our country is good, and a wholesome government could be framed upon it; for it was dictated by the invisible operations of the Almighty. ...

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No. It will be held inviolate by this people; and as Joseph Smith said "the time will come when the destiny of this nation will hang upon a single thread, and at this critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so.23

I do not know when that day will come or how it will come to pass. I feel sure that when it does come to pass, among those who will step forward from among this people will be men who hold the Holy Priesthood and who carry as credentials a bachelor or doctor of law degree. And women, also, of honor. And there will be judges as well.

Others from the world outside the Church will come, as Colonel Thomas Kane did, and bring with them their knowledge of the law to protect this people.

We may one day stand alone, but we will not change or lower our standards or change our course.

(Source: "On the Shoulders of Giants", Brigham Young University J. Reuben Clark Law Society Devotional, Saturday, 28 February 2004, 6:00 p.m., http://lds.org/newsroom/voice/display/0,18255,5004-1-61,00.html)

alabamabelle · Senior Member

educational credentials are nice, Mirk, but how about the all who are the
'great unwashed' who just believe in the constitution by heart instead of by juris prudence?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

mirkwood wrote:

Hey Cat does Elder Packer count as a modern day apostle?

Of course he does... what type of question and inference is that?

It seems to me that an apostle in 2004 referencing the same quote pokes a hole in the idea that it has already happened.

I didn't say it was a sound idea... I just said it was something to think about. But, the connection between a specific candidate and the prevention of a predicted actual event that seems to be anticipated by a number of his supporters who are LDS is just as full of holes, and not because someone can poke them in by quoting from various addresses given by Church leaders over the past 150 years.

Statement of Boyd K. Packer (2004):
When Moroni was translating the twenty-four gold plates, he interrupted his narrative to speak directly to us in our day. He told of the Gadiantons and their bands (in our day we would call them gangs):
Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [that is us], it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, ...
[He then warned us in unmistakable plainness]: Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; ...
Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved (Ether 8:2324, 26).
When the Saints in Missouri were suffering great persecutions, the Lord said that the Constitution of the United States was given that every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him. [Notice that it does not say free agency, it says moral agency. The agency we have is a moral agency.] ...
For this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood (D&C 101:78, 80; emphasis added).

The present major political debate centers on values and morals and the Constitution.
There occurs from time to time reference to the Constitution hanging by a thread. President Brigham Young said:
The general Constitution of our country is good, and a wholesome government could be framed upon it; for it was dictated by the invisible operations of the Almighty. ...
Will the Constitution be destroyed? No. It will be held inviolate by this people; and as Joseph Smith said "the time will come when the destiny of this nation will hang upon a single thread, and at this critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so.23
I do not know when that day will come or how it will come to pass. I feel sure that when it does come to pass, among those who will step forward from among this people will be men who hold the Holy Priesthood and who carry as credentials a bachelor or doctor of law degree. And women, also, of honor. And there will be judges as well.
Others from the world outside the Church will come, as Colonel Thomas Kane did, and bring with them their knowledge of the law to protect this people.
We may one day stand alone, but we will not change or lower our standards or change our course.
(Source: "On the Shoulders of Giants", Brigham Young University J. Reuben Clark Law Society Devotional, Saturday, 28 February 2004, 6:00 p.m., http://lds.org/newsroom/voice/display/0,18255,5004-1-61,00.html)

Note the audience that this was addressed to... law students. This is kind of reminder of the responsibility they have (ostensibly as most of them are or will be endowed LDS) to be honest and righteous in their activities in the legal profession.

Again, he is not stating doctrine or giving prophecy (as to an event where the Constitution will be hanging by a thread and the Elders of Israel will sally forth to save it), because he is not the Prophet. He is repeating the warnings that have been given by other apostles (and prophets) in earlier times.

Just as way of FYI, I don't have a problem with the concept of what Joseph stated. Or, for that matter what Brigham Young or John Taylor or Wilford Woodruff (or even Boyd K Packer) has said in their own ways concerning that concept. I just think the concept has been co-opted, adopted, and turned into a rally cry by a certain political persuasion.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
Just as way of FYI, I don't have a problem with the concept of what Joseph stated. Or, for that matter what Brigham Young or John Taylor or Wilford Woodruff (or even Boyd K Packer) has said in their own ways concerning that concept.
Ok, thanks for clarifying that...because the way you talk about it sure doesn't sound that way.

Cat Herder wrote:
I just think the concept has been co-opted, adopted, and turned into a rally cry by a certain political persuasion.

Who...good LDS?

Ohhhhhhh....another ad hominem attack on Ron Paul. Gotcha rolleyes

-- Edited by mirkwood at 12:06, 2007-12-20

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

alabamabelle wrote:

educational credentials are nice, Mirk, but how about the all who are the
'great unwashed' who just believe in the constitution by heart instead of by juris prudence?

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think that she's saying that University Professors are the very worst teachers on the planet.

--Ray

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cat Herder wrote:
Not sure I see how the war on terror has degraded our 4th ammendment rights. It is not like the things -- wiretaps, etc. -- are being done without the probable cause being shown or having the legal documents in place to do them. Have there probably been cases where stuff was done before that was in place? Yes, but it is being dealt with.

Hey Catman, it seems denial ain't just a river in Egypt. You clearly haven't been paying attention.

alabamabelle · Senior Member

actually, I was wondering where people without a degree in law play into the 'end of days' scenario?

while I claim no legal understanding beyond what personal study has granted me (limited - I realize), I DO believe the principles and underlying aims of our COnstitution deserve protection and support from the willing participants in the freedoms that it grants.

Sometimes us simple country folk don't hold a candle in fancy wording and high faluttin' vo - cabby- larry as those what is eddicated in lawin', but we do see what is right and wrong in our world and seek to remedy through legal means just like folks with robes with stripes on the sleeves.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think I have a right to privacy when I shout in public.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

alabamabelle wrote:
while I claim no legal understanding beyond what personal study has granted me (limited - I realize), I DO believe the principles and underlying aims of our COnstitution deserve protection and support from the willing participants in the freedoms that it grants.

Thumbs up.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Or in other words, "Don't Tase me Bro!"

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I KNOW MY RIGHTS!

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

Or in other words, "Don't Tase me Bro!"

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Mirk, thanks for all the info. I didn't realize that so many of our leaders have made reference to that propehcy.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

But the question still remains... is it really a prophecy (as in sure thing that is going to happen) or just a prophetic warning? Is it Lehi prophesying the eminent destruction of Jerusalem and carrying of the survivors into Babylonian captivity or is it the warning of Mormon and Moroni that those who are blessed to inhabit the Americas must serve The Lord or they will be destroyed?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

The Constitution is definitely hanging by a thread. The United Nations is gradually usurping (actually, being given) more authority over the US military, we have the president declaring war instead of the Congress, we have the president issuing "signing statements", which amount to laws that are the responsibility of Congress. Welfare and foreign aid, not authorized and therefore forbidden by the Constitution are incrreasing. The privately owned Federal Reserve is creating money out of thin air, causing continual devaluation of our currency. The FedGov has gotten into public school issues, wicn is not authorized and therefore forbidden by the Constitution. The FedGov continues to try to impose further restrictions on medications, food suppliments, etc., where it has no business. Elements of the FedGov are trying to prohibit posession of certain kinds of guns, as is the UN also. The president is not protecting our country from invasion, as evidenced by the influx of illegals and encouragement of illegal immigration. Regardless of whether you approve or disapprove of any or all of the above more obvious violations, they are unconstitutional, and should be taken seriously as violations.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Actually I believe the "if the constitution is to be saved" hanging by a thread is from Joseph F Smith who paraphrased of Orson Hyde, who was paraphrasing Joseph Smith.

The actual text of the prophecy and how we understand it is very much in debate among those who debate such things.

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm enjoying the banter.

I really like what John Taylor said about the Latter-day Church...

"We have got to get political power"...

They'll never say that from the pulpit now, but it's just as true today as it was back in the 1880s.

I feel that there are lots of great men like Lundbaek and Arbi that will continue to stand at the forefront in fighting for and defending our constitution.

I'm hoping that once Mitt is president that somehow men like them can get Mitt's ear.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Ezra Taft Benson, as the President of the Church, made the following statement at the Provo, UT Freedom Festival on 29 Jun 1986:
"We must study and learn for ourselves the principles laid down in the Constitution which have preserved our freedoms for the last two hundred years. If we do not understand the role of government and how our rights are protected by the Constitution, we may accept programs or organizations that help erode our freedoms. An informed citizenry is the first line of defense against anarchy and tyranny." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Pg 594; from an address given at the Provo Freedom Festival, Provo, UT, 29 Jun 1986)

"How then can we best befriend the Constitution in this critical hour and secure the blessings of liberty and ensure the protection and guidance of our Father in Heaven? First and foremost, we must be righteous. . . .

"Two great American Christian civilizationsthe Jaredites and the Nephiteswere swept off this land because they did not "serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ" (Ether 2:12). What will become of our civilization?

"Second, We must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers. Have we read the Federalist papers? Are we reading the Constitution and pondering it? Are we aware of its principles? Are we abiding by these principles and teaching them to others? Could we defend the Constitution? Can we recognize when a law is constitutionally unsound? Do we know what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it? . . .

"We, the blessed beneficiaries of the Constitution, face difficult days in America, "a land which is choice above all other lands" (Ether 2:10). "May God give us the faith and the courage exhibited by those patriots who pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. May we be equally as valiant and as free." ("Our Divine Constitution" 6-7, an official Church publication )

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

I have already tried to influence Mitt Romney by sending him and our LDS congressmen the following message.

"O that thou mightest be like unto Congressman Ron Paul, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandment of the Lord to befriend the US Constitution!"

Not a single reply.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Yeah, Lund, that wouldn't put a man on the defensive. rolleyes

--Ray

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

I'm sure he put that in the round filing cabinent he keeps by his desk.