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Post Info TOPIC: Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


Senior Bucketkeeper

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RE: Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


I posted this in a thread on a similar topic several months ago:

Our Father has provided a plan for the well-being of His children.  The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that plan.  In addition to our spiritual and physical well-being, I believe the principles of the Gospel provide for our

- social well-being as articulated in "The Family, a Proclamation to the World"
- economic well-being as articulated in the Law of Consecration
- political well-being as articulated in the Constitution of the United States.

When our legislature passes laws attempting to govern the social and economic well-being of God's children, government usurps the role of God's Church, violating it's own standard of "seperation of church and state." 

The role of government is to ensure individual freedom, so that Zion can stand as a light to all nations, so that individuals can recognize God's social and economic plans exemplified in Zion, and flock to Zion to embrace them.  There is no gray area here--God's plan, or Satan's attacks against it.  Every law we pass to govern aspects of social or economic life mounts another attack against the Kingdom of God.


Simply put:  The proper role of government is not to provide social and economic well-being.  The proper role of our Constitutional government is to protect liberty. I'm with Lundy, Hidden, and a few others in my understanding of this principle as discussed in D&C 98:  Any more or less than this cometh of evil.



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Understander of unimportant things

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Roper wrote:

Cat Herder wrote:
Where in the Constitution is it stated that the responsibility to take care of one another falls solely on families, communities, religious and other charitable organizations?

Thank you for making my point, Cat. wink  Those responsibilities not specifically assigned by the Constitution to the federal government belong to the states.  Welfare and social justice are not among those responsbililites specifically assigned.






Making your point? I think not Roper my friend. What I was getting at is that those who are so ultra strict in interpretation of the Constitution should be able to point to the exact spot in the Constitution where these items prohibited by exact verbage.

I know full well that the Constitution in a strict reading of the verbage does not say it is specifically assigned to the Federal Government... but, the converse is also true.

So, see you have a conundrum by only approaching the Constitution as a document that is legal only from a strict interpretation based of exact verbage only. There is no room for adaptation, because it has to be there from the beginning. Therefore, the Constitution is inflexible. History shows us though that the Constitution is indeed flexible. Therefore, it must have been created and written in such away to allow for adaptation. Therefore, there must be room for a more broad reading and still have it legal and "Constitutional".

Otherwise how do you explain the wording in the Preamble of "promote the general Welfare"? The Preamble is the explanation of the rationale behind the Constitution and by what authority it is created.

But you and I have had this conversation before, haven't we? wink.gif

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Cat Herder wrote:
But you and I have had this conversation before, haven't we? wink.gif

Yes we have.  And you will undoubtedly be consigned to the ninth level of Hades furious because you refuse to embrace the light of my obviously inspired interpretation!

FTR, I don't think the Constitution was meant to be rigid.  It was clearly designed to flexible in application, but still within it's scope and purpose--to protect liberty.  Obviously, we need new laws to address new threats to liberty that the founders likely didn't envision.  But that "flexibility" was never intended to endorse what amounts to economic welfare and social justice.

"Preamble" simply means introduction.  It's used in formal documents.  If I were making a formal case, for example, I would give an introduction, which would include generalized statements about specific arguments, then give the arguments in detail, then give a summary, again in general terms about specific arguments.  "Promote the general welfare" is an introductory statement about the purpose of the specific articles of the Constitution.  "Promote the general welfare" is not a specific article in and of itself, and should not be misconstrued as an endorsement of government-run welfare programs.



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Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


If you get rid of social justice and economic welfare programs, why would you keep education? Is there a reason education is a Constitutionally appropriate place for tax dollars, but helping the poor and sick should be handled by the private sector? In societies where welfare was the province of family and church, they also hired private tutors for their children (I'm thinking of Victorian England). The idea that everyone gets an education from the government is as radical as the idea that everyone gets fed by the government, IMO.

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RE: Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


I love your reasoning, Janey.  Which is exactly why this educator advocates education transitioning to a market enterprise instead of a government-funded and government-controlled system.



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Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


Really? Even though you're a teacher? When you say "private enterprise" are you talking about private schools?

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RE: Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


Janey wrote:

Really? Even though you're a teacher? When you say "private enterprise" are you talking about private schools?



Really.  Precisely because I'm a teacher.  Not necessarily private schools as we know them.  I'll attempt to be brief.

First, the founders were wise not to include education as a federal responsibility.  Parents are and should be the ones who can best make decisions about their children's education.  The federal level is the farthest removed from that.  Education is the responsbiblity of families and communities.

Second, to use a familiar parallel, education should be run less like the post office and more like FedEx.  Market enterprises have proven irrefutably that they can provide goods and services more efficiently, more effectively, at higher quality, and at lower cost than can government bureaucracies.

Third, competition improves the breed. When was the last time you heard of a public school exceding the expectations of the community?  It's failure after failure, and each new government program that promises to work is defined as a failure when the next one comes along. And so it's gone for generations, yet we still have this completely irrational and utterly baseless idea that we can fix public education. In the market, if your enterprise doesn't perform, you're gone.

My ideal is best stated by David Boaz, published in The Politic, Yale University, Nov 10, 2007:


The way to improve American education is to open the system to choice and competition. Give parents the freedom to send their children to schools that they choose. Get the dynamic and innovative for-profit sector looking for ways to deliver more education for less money. Let a thousand experiments bloom from charter schools to vouchers to tax credits to private management to full separation of school and state and let families and school systems emulate the successful ones.


But don't do any of this at the federal level. Don't reform education. Don't change the rules. Don't set up a demonstration project. Don't impose national standards. And by all means don't set up a national voucher plan. Even block grants to states, favored by some conservatives, have many problems: they continue the illusion that federal money is "magic money" that doesn't come from the people in the several states; they get state and local education agencies hooked on federal money; and they subsidize the very monopolies that need to be opened to competition.


Just eliminate the Department of Education, end its meddlesome subsidies and regulations, and return the $70 billion that the federal government spends annually on elementary and secondary education to the American people...The closer to the family we push the decisionmaking, the more dynamic, competitive, and innovative the educational system will be.

Congress should affirm the wisdom of the Founders in not granting the federal government any power over education and return the vital function of education to the states, localities, and families where it can be managed best.



-- Edited by Roper at 22:40, 2007-12-18

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RE: Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


Your analogy doesn't work. Can Fedex get a letter anywhere in the country in two to four days for 41 cents? I just priced sending a letter sized package to NY from Utah. The Gov method will cost me 41 cents. Fedex $5.92. Sure for larger packages, and time sensitive shipments they may win, but not necessarily.

Your idea has merits, less federal intrusion is good, but total withdrawal? I don't know. Also relying on the family only works where the families are working, and sadly in many parts of this country they ain't working too hot.

The other problem I see with that proposal is to Let a thousand experiments bloom
And what happens to the kids who get enrolled in experiments that fail?  That is why we run trial/test programs.  Don't get me wrong I know our education system needs some serious repairs, but to just toss it all out the window.  No way in hell.  



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Hot Air Balloon

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Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


I like how poor people can send letters for 41 cents. Rich people can too. I like the fact that together we have some services equal among us. I think it's wrong to pledge allegiance to any single political philosophy regardless of how reasonable it is, unless it's the Gospel, and that's arguably tangentially political.

--Ray

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RE: Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


Janey wrote:

Really? Even though you're a teacher? When you say "private enterprise" are you talking about private schools?




Just a few thoughts for the discussion lead me to a few questions.

How many are familiar with and have read MANY ARE CALLED, FEW ARE CHOSEN?

Is anyone else familiar with the SEPERATION of SCHOOL and STATE website?

Who is familiar with George Wythe College?


I might add that there is obviously great defense for the countless social programs that are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. There is this apathy that these are needed and government must provide in order to meet the needs of less fortunate citizens. Has anyone considered the FACT that GOVERNMENT does not produce wealth. ALL of the money comes from "WE THE PEOPLE" and the cost is bondage because the spending is more than can be paid back. Such action is at the expense of my children and the future generations. There is a principle of effeciency. NEVER ask a Larger group to do that which can be done by a smaller group. The federal Government can never provide for the needy as effeciently as neighbors and community organization and local government. It is a false perception, as the productive working class and poor will always pay the bill. In fact history has shown that government throwing money that way has only increased the expense to do so and encouraged apathetic relief of responsibility from "WE THE PEOPLE". 







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You still haven't proven that social programs are unconstitutional. In fact, you haven't proven that taxes are unconstitutional. You want us to go by "your interpretation" of the constitution.

You keep saying that they are, so where in the Constitution does it say that?
The Constitution is not subject to individual and selective interpretation.

That's like when religions such as Born again Christians and the like only selecting certain passages from the Bible and misinterpreting their meaning and touting them as "the gospel" and ignoring the rest.




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Poncho29 wrote:

You still haven't proven that social programs are unconstitutional. In fact, you haven't proven that taxes are unconstitutional. You want us to go by "your interpretation" of the constitution.

You keep saying that they are, so where in the Constitution does it say that?
The Constitution is not subject to individual and selective interpretation.

That's like when religions such as Born again Christians and the like only selecting certain passages from the Bible and misinterpreting their meaning and touting them as "the gospel" and ignoring the rest.



Here is a challenge...
http://www.livefreenow.org/30K_challenge.cfm



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RE: Huckabee's Fair Tax


Welcome to history class.

The federal government of the United States imposes a progressive tax on the taxable income of individuals, corporations, trusts, decedents' estates, and certain bankruptcy estates. Some state and municipal governments also impose income taxes. The first Federal income tax was imposed (under Article I, section 8, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution) during the Civil War, then again in the 1890s, and again after the Sixteenth Amendment was ratified in 1913. Current income taxes are imposed under these constitutional provisions and various sections of Subtitle A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, including 26 U.S.C. § 1 (imposing income tax on the taxable income of individuals, estates and trusts) and 26 U.S.C. § 11 (imposing income tax on the taxable income of corporations).


Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution (the "Taxing and Spending Clause"), specifies Congress's power to impose "Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises," but Article I, Section 9 requires that, "Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."


In addition, the Constitution specifically limited Congress' ability to impose direct taxes, by requiring it to distribute direct taxes in proportion to each state's census population. It was thought that head taxes and property taxes (slaves could be taxed as either or both) were likely to be abused, and that they bore no relation to the activities in which the federal government had a legitimate interest. The fourth clause of section 9 therefore specifies that, "No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken."


Taxation was also the subject of Federalist No. 33 penned secretly by the Federalist Alexander Hamilton under the pseudonym Publius. In it, he explains that the wording of the "Necessary and Proper" clause should serve as guidelines for the legislation of laws regarding taxation. The legislative branch is to be the judge, but any abuse of those powers of judging can be overturned by the people, whether as states or as a larger group.


The courts have generally held that direct taxes are limited to taxes on people (variously called "capitation", "poll tax" or "head tax") and property[1]. All other taxes are commonly referred to as "indirect taxes," because they tax an event, rather than a person or property per se.[2] What seemed to be a straightforward limitation on the power of the legislature based on the subject of the tax proved inexact and unclear when applied to an income tax, which can be arguably viewed either as a direct or an indirect tax.

Early Federal income taxes

In order to help pay for its war effort in the American Civil War, the United States government imposed its first personal income tax, on August 5, 1861, as part of the Revenue Act of 1861 (3% of all incomes over US $800; rescinded in 1872). Other income taxes followed, although an 1895 United States Supreme Court ruling, Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co., held that taxes on rents from real estate, on interest income from personal property and other income from personal property (which includes dividend income) were direct taxes on property, and therefore had to be apportioned. Since apportionment of income taxes is impractical, this had the effect of prohibiting a federal tax on income from property. Due to the political difficulties of taxing individual wages without taxing income from property, a federal income tax was impractical from the time of the Pollock decision until the time of ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment.

Ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment

In response, Congress proposed the Sixteenth Amendment (ratified by the requisite number of states in 1913[3]), which states:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

The Supreme Court in Brushaber v. Union Pacific Railroad, 240 U.S. 1 (1916), indicated that the amendment did not expand the federal government's existing power to tax income (meaning profit or gain from any source) but rather removed the possibility of classifying an income tax as a direct tax on the basis of the source of the income. The Amendment removed the need for the income tax to be apportioned among the states on the basis of population. Income taxes are required, however, to abide by the law of geographical uniformity. Some tax protesters, conspiracy theorists, and others opposed to income taxes cite what they contend is evidence that the Sixteenth Amendment was never "properly ratified" (see Tax protester constitutional arguments).

Modern interpretation of the power to tax incomes

The modern interpretation of the Sixteenth Amendment taxation power can be found in Commissioner v. Glenshaw Glass Co. 348 U.S. 426 (1955). In that case, a taxpayer had received an award of punitive damages from a competitor for antitrust violations, and sought to avoid paying taxes on that award. The Court observed that Congress, in imposing the income tax, had defined income to include:

gains, profits, and income derived from salaries, wages, or compensation for personal service . . . of whatever kind and in whatever form paid, or from professions, vocations, trades, businesses, commerce, or sales, or dealings in property, whether real or personal, growing out of the ownership or use of or interest in such property; also from interest, rent, dividends, securities, or the transaction of any business carried on for gain or profit, or gains or profits and income derived from any source whatever.[4]

The Court held that "this language was used by Congress to exert in this field the full measure of its taxing power", id., and that "the Court has given a liberal construction to this broad phraseology in recognition of the intention of Congress to tax all gains except those specifically exempted."[5]


The Court then enunciated what is now understood by Congress and the Courts to be the definition of taxable income, "instances of undeniable accessions to wealth, clearly realized, and over which the taxpayers have complete dominion." Id. at 431. The defendant in that case suggested that a 1954 rewording of the tax code had limited the income that could be taxed, a position which the Court rejected, stating:

The definition of gross income has been simplified, but no effect upon its present broad scope was intended. Certainly punitive damages cannot reasonably be classified as gifts, nor do they come under any other exemption provision in the Code. We would do violence to the plain meaning of the statute and restrict a clear legislative attempt to bring the taxing power to bear upon all receipts constitutionally taxable were we to say that the payments in question here are not gross income.[6]

Tax statutes passed after the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment in 1913 are sometimes referred to as the "modern" tax statutes. Hundreds of Congressional acts have been passed since 1913, as well as several codifications (i.e., topical reorganizations) of the statutes (see Codification).

Central Illinois Public Service Co. v. United States, 435 U.S. 21 (1978), confirmed that wages and income are not identical as far as taxes on income are concerned, because income not only includes wages, but any other gains as well. The Court in that case noted that in enacting taxation legislation, Congress "chose not to return to the inclusive language of the Tariff Act of 1913, but, specifically, 'in the interest of simplicity and ease of administration,' confined the obligation to withhold [income taxes] to 'salaries, wages, and other forms of compensation for personal services'" and that "committee reports ... stated consistently that 'wages' meant remuneration 'if paid for services performed by an employee for his employer'".[7]


Other courts have noted this distinction in upholding the taxation not only of wages, but also of personal gain derived from other sources, recognizing some limitation to the reach of income taxation. For example, in Conner v. United States, 303 F. Supp. 1187 (S.D. Tex. 1969), affd in part and revd in part, 439 F.2d 974 (5th Cir. 1971), a couple had lost their home to a fire, and had received compensation for their loss from the insurance company, partly in the form of hotel costs reimbursed. The court acknowledged the authority of the IRS to assess taxes on all forms of payment, but did not permit taxation on the compensation provided by the insurance company, because unlike a wage or a sale of goods at a profit, this was not a gain. As the Court noted, "Congress has taxed income, not compensation".


By contrast, other courts have interpreted the Constitution as providing even broader taxation powers for Congress. In Murphy v. IRS, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit upheld the Federal income tax imposed on a monetary settlement recovery that the same court had previously indicated was not income, stating: "[a]lthough the 'Congress cannot make a thing income which is not so in fact,' [ . . . ] it can label a thing income and tax it, so long as it acts within its constitutional authority, which includes not only the Sixteenth Amendment but also Article I, Sections 8 and 9." [8]

Similarly, in Penn Mutual Indemnity Co. v. Commissioner, the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit indicated that Congress could properly impose the Federal income tax on a receipt of money, regardless of what that receipt of money is called:

It could well be argued that the tax involved here [an income tax] is an "excise tax" based upon the receipt of money by the taxpayer. It certainly is not a tax on property and it certainly is not a capitation tax; therefore, it need not be apportioned. [ . . . ] Congress has the power to impose taxes generally, and if the particular imposition does not run afoul of any constitutional restrictions then the tax is lawful, call it what you will.[9]

The Internal Revenue Code (or IRC) (more formally, the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended) is the main body of domestic statutory tax law of the United States organized topically, including laws covering the income tax (see Income tax in the United States), payroll taxes, gift taxes, estate taxes and statutory excise taxes. The Internal Revenue Code is published as title 26 of the United States Code (USC), and is also known as the internal revenue title.



class dismissed.



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RE: Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


worship.gifnod.gifclap.gif

Excellent research belle, thanks.

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Huckabee's "Fair" Tax


roper, thanks for your thoughts on education. I think the federal govt is too heavily involved in education too, and I wish vouchers had passed in Utah. Competition is a good thing. However, I wouldn't want to get rid of free public schools entirely (not saying that you do) because I'm afraid many children wouldn't get educated at all if their parents had to pay money out of pocket for it, or otherwise spend a lot of effort on their child's education. Sad, but I suspect it's true.

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I have a general comment on the Constitution. For a research project in law school, I looked up every single constitution on the planet. This was in the days before Internet, so I actually held a paper copy of the constitution of every country that has a constitution (not all do) in my hands. Here's a couple interesting things:

Our Constitution is the oldest by more than 100 years. There's the U.S. Constitution in 1787 (or thereabouts?) and then there is one constitution from 1830 (Liberia, which the U.S. established as a country in Africa to send free slaves). After that, the next constitution doesn't appear until 1901, when Australia passed one. There were a bunch of constitutions passed just after WWII, and another crop in the early 1990s when the Iron Curtain came down. The idea that a constitution governs your country is well-established in the U.S., but is a pretty new idea elsewhere. England doesn't even have a constitution.

Our Constitution is the shortest by pages and pages and pages. Our Const and Bill of Rights is six pages, then another 3 or 4 pgs for the amendments. Other countries' constitutions run at least 30 pages. The old Soviet Union had a 60 page constitution. The longer a constitution is, the more recent it is. That's because extremely detailed documents just don't hold up over the centuries. Things have to change. A short, vague constitution like we have is the only kind that is flexible enough to stick.

Because of its age and short length, there are many things not mentioned in the Constitution. The founding fathers could not have foreseen our welfare state. Maybe it would have freaked them out and they would have forbidden it. But it never even entered their minds. So we get to make the decision about it, not them.

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Understander of unimportant things

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Well said, Janey.

We get to decide, not them.

That is part of the genius in our Constitution. It is flexible enough to let younger generations of citizens make adaptations that are pertinent to the needs of the day. It is also still rigid enough to place a check on those things that truely do threaten the integrity of the nation and the citizens of this republic.

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