Guilty as charged!

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

Guilty as charged!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

What is your point?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Listened to it once.

I personally spent some time with Dr.Skousen in his office at BYU the spring of 1976.

I lost all respect for him that day.

I didn't understand fully why until in 1990 when my wife and I moved into our new home.

For some reason, as a full time seminary teacher my sweetheart felt that she should own everything that Dr. Skousen had ever written.

I told her that I would give him another chance and so I read "The First 1000 Years".

I found little snippets from that book for her to read. I read some of them to her and asked her if she agreed with them.

That day, she took every book she owned by Dr. Skousen and threw them all into the dumpster.

Since then with a few exceptions, if a book comes into our home for us adults to read, they are almost exclusively words by LIVING prophets, seers and revelators.

alabamabelle · Senior Member

Cleon Skousen, like everyone else, has both a bellybutton and an opinion.

Horray for him.

So, does that mean that we all get equal say?

You bet. It also probably means that the personal opinions we all hold are worth just as much as his are to other people that don't share our special view of the world.

The difference is that he got published and most of us and our ideology hasn't been . . .

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

I'm just a guy with no long history in the church or roots in Utah. My mom joined the church when I was three. But I for the life of me can't remember when brother Skousen was the Prophet. Can someone help me out here? I never learned that song in primary which lists all the prophets.

Also, has anyone been converted by these various video clips or is it more

?

-- Edited by Duke of Mirth at 10:38, 2007-12-14

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

alabamabelle wrote:

Cleon Skousen, like everyone else, has both a bellybutton and an opinion.

Well, we know he has an opinion, but is there irrefutable evidence he has / had a bellybutton?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I watched the video. I think his claim that Rockefeller praised Mao Tse Tung and then the implication of a New World Order seem to be somewhat nonsequitor--especially as pertaining to the here and now.

I haven't read many of his books. I did hear one tape when I was on my mission that colored the way I think about the atonement.

Was Skousen ever a General Authority?

--Ray

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I DID hear a pretty good rumor that he has a bellybutton Cat... but I would think that we probably would be wise to get a doctor's statement on any human, to be sure... we wouldn't want to be guilty of jumping to any conclusions... Right?

alabamabelle · Senior Member

Cat Herder wrote:

Well, we know he has an opinion, but is there irrefutable evidence he has / had a bellybutton?

hmmm. sounds like a case for Scully and Mulder.

Randy · Senior Member

Since I don't do youtube, could someone explain the gist of what this is all about?

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

When you start tossing out Skousen as "unofficial" information and therefore completely questionable, you better toss out Hugh Nibley, probably the most "unofficial" quoted source in Sunday School.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

So we're talking about David Rockefeller's confession?

So, Mahonri, what in the world would cause you to lose "all" respect for a fellow, covenanted Latter-Day Saint?

Good point, mirk.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Mirk: I imagine, The church would survive without Hugh Nibley.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

So, Mahonri, what in the world would cause you to lose "all" respect for a fellow, covenanted Latter-Day Saint?

It's past history. He was very rude and I allowed him to offend me.

I've noted in the past that General Authorities have quoted Nibley. I've never heard one quote Skousen, but I did hear one once say that members shouldn't give too much credence to his opinions.

Skousen as well as Nibley were never General Authorities.

Skousen's opinions IMHO were way, way out there.

alabamabelle · Senior Member

Randy wrote:

Since I don't do youtube, could someone explain the gist of what this is all about?

RANDY, et al, this is the transcription of the little movie ( hopefully I got all the jots and tittles in place...)
LONG POST ALERT! see if this helps demystify the conversation thread:

TITLE SLIDE #1
"You are listening to one outspoken patriot tell of the massive treason from within, the vicious betrayal of China to Communist forces. It is not the agenda of the New World Order crowd to bring 'freedom' or 'democracy', to any place on earth, be it Iraq, China, or Iran" (left side of slide bears photo of Cleon Skousen, with the attribution: Dr. Cleon Skousen, US Patriot, Author, Lecturer, FBI)

SPOKEN NARRATION:
'Now, in 1973, the New York Times came out with an article and it said that Mao Tse Tung was probably the most moral, spiritual, innovative leader of the century.'

'Who do you think would make a statement like that about Mao Tse Tung, who admitted to murdering 12 million people and congressional reports on, based on sworn testimony by people who are over there raised the estimate closer to 64 million, who do you think in the United States would call that kind of man a "great, spiritual, moral leader. . .THE greatest?" That's David Rockefeller.'

TITLE SLIDE #2

In his own book, Memoires, [sic] pubished in 2002, the U S Constitution destroying power elite international and banker, David Rockefeller, boasted of his treason in these words:

SPOKEN NARRATION:
'President of the Chase-Manhattan Bank, Head of the Counsel on Foreign Relations, and probably the most prestigious political and economic personality in the whole world.' (Left slide picture is book jacked for David Rockefellers book "Memoires").

'There is no one who can walk into any embassy or any Prime Minister's office unannounced, don't know any other person who can do it but David Rockefeller can. He is the youngest of the Rockefeller brothers. What's he trying to do?'

'He has a plan. He wants to restore "RULER'S LAW" and "force the stupid masses" - those are Lenin's words - "force the stupid masses to do what's good for them".

'He has the highest aspirations for the human family. He would force all of them to be well housed, well educated, and well fed on the assumption that then they will all reach the Celestial Kingdom . . .

TITLE SLIDE # 3
Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - - one world, if you will... {David Rockefeller in photo}

TITLE SLIDE #4
"if that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I'm proud of it. {David Rockefeller}

SPOKEN NARRATION:
'or whatever he believes in. In order to help these people, you must approach them on the basic assumption that they're sincere. They're so sincere that some of them would give their VERY LIVES to achieve this great monolithic monster of power that we all voted against in the pre-existence.

The great revolution of the pre-existence is continuing here on Earth. Satan won a third of our brothers and sisters up there, and it's amazing how many of are willing to subscribe to those principles here.

TITLE SLIDE #5
This speech was given around 1976, on a cruise ship returning from Israel. The full lecture can be found in the download section of www.awakeandarise.org

{photo of Dr. Skousen to left with attribution: Dr. Cleon Skousen, US Patriot, Author, Lecturer, FBI)

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

Mirk: I imagine, The church would survive without Hugh Nibley.

I guarantee it...but since we are applying a certain set of rules to Skousen, Nibley goes too.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Neal Maxwell never quoted Skousen.

Neal Maxwell quoted Nibley and "Brother" C.S. Lewis regularly>

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

My first encounter with W. Cleon Skousen occurred in 1968, when I had volunteered to substitute teach a seminary class in Payson, UT from March thru the end of the school year. The New Testament was not my forte, and when I learned that was the class I had to do, I went to Brother Skousens office at BYU, and explained my predicament. I had never even seen him before then. He graciously invited me into his office, sat me down, and gave me and wrote out 2 weeks of lesson plans. It took the kids the rest of the school year to catch up with me.

I had opportunities to chat with him on numerous occasions, initially because of his intense interest in the Holy Lands and because of my having lived and worked in Israel. He was very dedicated to trying to educate Americans, especially LDS, on the importance of our upholding ans sustaining the US Constitution.

Another favourite memory of Brother Skousen goes back to late 1971, when I was living in his house in Provo. He did two things which left a lasting impression on me. First, when I told him I was considering a job with the CIA, he asked why. In response to one of my reasons, he stated that I'd be doing more good for the other side because the CIA was so infiltrated. And I guess Ames and Hanssen certainly proved him right. The other thing he did which I greatly admired was at considerable expense to himself and with considerable financial backing in addition to his own resources, established the Freeman Institute for the purpose of teaching Americans about the US Constitution and the threats to destroy it and merge America into a world wide socialist dictatorship. The Apostle Ezra Taft Benson lent considerable support to the Freeman Institute, including giving the keynote speech at the dedication of the first building. The Freeman Institute eventually evolved into the National Center for Constitutional Studies (NCCS). The original concept of the FI came from Presiden McKay before he died.

The oldest son and oldest daughter of Brother Skousen have been among my closest friends ever since. From them I learned that he was very human. But if his funeral a couple of years ago in SLC is any indication, he was tremendously well respected and liked. President Monson was one of the 4 speakers at his funeral.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Mahonri wrote:

Neal Maxwell never quoted Skousen.

Neal Maxwell quoted Nibley and "Brother" C.S. Lewis regularly>

Ezra Taft Benson endorsed Skousen's writings.

Randy · Senior Member

Alabamabelle,

Thank you for the transcript. I didn't want anyone to go to so much trouble, but thank you.

Randy

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

mirkwood wrote:

rayb wrote:

Mirk: I imagine, The church would survive without Hugh Nibley.

I guarantee it...but since we are applying a certain set of rules to Skousen, Nibley goes too.

WOW, NO ONE ever suggested the church could not survive without Skousen. What an amazing implication. To answer Cats question, the main point IMO is that David Rockefellar has admitted to efforts and desire to destroy soviergnty. The evidence clearly supports that fact. The person implicated in the video admitts his basic disregard for national soviergnty. IMO...David Rockefellars plan matches well with one side of a war that started in heaven....to force us into obedience and happiness. How that is turned into attacks on other members is beyond me. The church could survive without you and/or I but how is that relevant and why would anyone turn the discussion to attacking other members to defend their viewpoints that are irrelevant to the thread topic?

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

Randy wrote:

Alabamabelle,

Thank you for the transcript. I didn't want anyone to go to so much trouble, but thank you.

Randy

Ditto that seems an impressive personal sacrifice of time.

Ditto, an impressive sacrafice of time for a

alabamabelle · Senior Member

Randy wrote:

Alabamabelle,

Thank you for the transcript. I didn't want anyone to go to so much trouble, but thank you.

Randy

it was no trouble. it kept me occupied while waiting on the next load of laundry to buzz in. . . I'll trade transcription duty for laundry duty in a heartbeat.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

In another thread I quoted Elder Packard:

To argue or debate over sacred things usually generates much more heat than light.
President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, The Peaceable Followers of Christ, Ensign, Apr. 1998, 65.

I would say that is true for things that are not sacred even... I think this is the problem I have with many of the topics you have started since your short time in this forum began hiddentreasure... It is not the topics themselves you wish to discuss that are negatively received by me... it is the way you present your points and theories. You "seem" to be saying, "I am right... now, prove me wrong"... Yours and and a few other's comments are very often accusatory in nature... with the attitude of: "JUST LOOK at this... can you believe it???" After which you AND others on opposite side of the fence too... attach an "assumptive point" that a "good" members would only understand things the way you see them... If that is not the way you (or others) choose to present your "persuasive debate statements", then you might want to re-state things in a less accusatory ways.

I really don't care about anyone's political motivations for posts... For instance your support of your candidate is not an issue for me... Since I have not decided who I will vote for, I am still reading and investigating all positions... However you might be interested in knowing that in my view you and other supporters of some of the candidates are losing my interest in researching those points and are harming your candidate, because you are coming off as condescending to those of use that don't see all the doom and gloom that you do, rather you mean to or not...

To those that attack back, you aren't doing any better at helping someone like me who hasn't decided who to vote for, make a decision towards your candidate. It's not just irritating when you are undecided to read all these attacking posts... it is frightening to understand just how angry and mean members of the church become with each other, over politics...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I appreciate your personal experiences, lundie. I for one admire the time and effort Skousen dedicated to his convictions. I haven't read that much but I do own 6-10 books of his that are on my "list." :)

One book I've partially read is, So You Want to Raise a Boy. I found it very practical, very down to earth and at the same time very warm. I got the feeling he was a very involved father and viewed this role very seriously.

I had previously read his funeral transcript online and was very moved.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 10:16, 2007-12-15

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Mahonri wrote:
Since then with a few exceptions, if a book comes into our home for us adults to read, they are almost exclusively words by LIVING prophets, seers and revelators.

That's a great policy, except for the occasional Orson Scott Card or Rush Limbaugh book. Or Ann Coulter.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

mirkwood wrote:

I guarantee it...but since we are applying a certain set of rules to Skousen, Nibley goes too.

Actually, we aren't applying the same set of rules. No one posts topic after topic after annoying topic implying that studying Hugh Nibley is necessary to be politically astute or in harmony with gospel.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Your logic fails...sorry, insert $0.25 and play again please.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I think the annoying Nibley topics are on the Democratic Mormon sites.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Thanks, coco-ster. I was desperately trying to figure out where my "logic fails."

I'll rush off and search for all of the "you MUST read Nibley" threads.

-- Edited by Hoss Cartwright at 13:55, 2007-12-18

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

I guess you could tell us where the "you MUST read Skousen" threads are when you find them too. I can't seem to find where those are posted over and over either.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

UMMMMMM, how about this thread?

I guess there aren't a lot of "you must read Skousen" threads. I was lumping them in with the "you must love Ron Paul" threads.

Kind of the same attitude, as if we hadn't given these things consideration before.

It's kind of like Evangelical Christians who respond to everything they disagree with with the phrase "read your bible," as if we hadn't.

You know the type.

FWIW, please feel free to point out one SINGLE thread where someone foists Nibley on the group and holds him up as some standard to which we all must bow or be forever ignorant and unworthy.

Or don't. But I bet you can't.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Obviously there a few around here that hold Nibley in the esteem I suggested. So why is it wrong to point out the same standard should be applied to him...or any number of other LDS writers who do not serve in an "official authority" position of the church? As for Ron Paul, he is not Skousen and the argument was about Skousen and Nibley and any of the other writers you would like to lump in. Not to mention the fact that a large number of LDS actually do place Nibley on the level of authoritative writing as the brethren. We've all heard him oft quoted in Sunday School and priesthood. If you haven't, you are in the minority. Every ward I've ever been in has quoted him.

What is interesting is the often outright dismissal of Skousen by some people because of some of the topics he discussed. I guess some people don't like to hear about certain topics. Benson (remember him, he was a prophet ya know) used to say the same things.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Well, even though Maxwell quoted Nibley, I've only read a small amout of what he has written... and YES, he was much too liberal for my liking.

I'll just stick with the words of Prophets, Seers and Revelators although I did read the Clarence Thomas autobio.... and I have considered reading Coulter and Limbaugh