What Can Mitt Say?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

What Can Mitt Say?

alabamabelle · Senior Member

stranger things have happened. as i recall, it all started with a 14 year old boy who wanted to know what church to go to in his neighborhood . . .

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

I thought Mitt looked pretty good. I haven't decided who I am voting for yet and am still undecided. I think this particular forum was good for him. He was clear, articulate, and came across as genuine. He definitely shined in this situation in contrast to how he comes across in the debates. In the debates he comes across as stiff and plastic. His performance during the CNN Youtube debate was horrible. This speach was one of his best ever. I don't think though that this speach will convince those who would not vote for a mormon under any circumstance. It may have helped with the few people who were sitting on the fence. It depends on if they watched it or not. Mitt needs to win the early primaries and it doesn't look very good in Iowa right now. He has to win New Hampshire and Carolina to get the media attention to get some traction for Super Tuesday. If the primaries were more spread out in the past I think he would have a better shot.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

...the Constitution to be inspired word of God and that anything more or less comes of evil

The Constitution was and is an inspired document but not THE word of God. It is not scripture and should not be worshipped. To state that anything more or less comes from evil is just wrong.

arbilad · Head Chef

Is Mitt Mormon enough?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Jerry Zandstra and Gary Glenn are not entirely credible... and they are far from being experts. They are both evangelical activists. Zandstra has even flip-flopped in whom he supports in this primary. And in the last general election, he claimed foul for being removed from the ballot when he hadn't actually met the qualifications for being a candidate.

Zandstra's organization (and I wouldn't doubt Glenn's might also) even resorts to below the belt, unethical tactics in their campaigning... like spamming e-mail, and those so-called phone "polls".

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Yea......The Guardian does have an agenda they push as well. The article pretty much lost me when it used the term "cult". Haven't heard that one in a few years. How many years does a church have to be around before it is no longer considered a cult?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Apparently Glenn Beck asked Huckabee if he'd vote for a Mormon. Apparently it made the guy stutter... hehehehe...

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

TitusTodd wrote:
The Constitution was and is an inspired document but not THE word of God. It is not scripture and should not be worshipped. To state that anything more or less comes from evil is just wrong.

Of course we don't worship the constitution. Or the scriptures. I don't believe that has been implied. However, the Constitution is the word of God. It is His plan for not only our government as we know it, but in it's perfected state, it will become the foundational document for His government during the millenium and beyond. A stretch? An excerpt from the dedicatory prayer of the Kirtland temple--specific language given to the prophet by the Lord:

Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever. - D&C 109:54
Other scriptures that have been discussed, specifically passages from D&C 98 and 101, should impress upon us as Latter-day Saints that the Constitution is an essential element of the God's Kingdom, and that our covenants to sustain and defend the kingdom of God apply also to that sacred document.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

A friend sent me these two quotes. I'd like to add them because I feel they're germane to our discussion:

"I feel bound to conform my life to the teachings of the Ten Commandments. I feel equally bound to sustain the Constitution of the United States which came from the same source as the Ten Commandments." (President George Albert Smith, April 1949 General Conference)

"To me...that statement of the Lord, "I have established the Contitution of this land," puts the Constitution of the United States in the position in which it would be in if it were written in this book of Doctrine and Covenants itself. This makes the Constitution the word of the Lord to us." (President J. Ruben Clark, April 1935 General Conference)

I believe that if the Elders of Israel are to rescue the Constitution per the prophecy, we as LDS living in America ought to share President Smith's and President Clark's vision of and commitment to the Constitution.

-- Edited by Roper at 12:17, 2007-12-08

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Great quotes Roper, thanks for posting them. I had not seen the first one before.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

As I see it, if we are living the Ten Commandments (based on how The Savior said people should when he answered the question posed as bait "Which is the greatest commandment?"), supporting the Constitution is going to be one of the byproducts of living that. I think that is the essence of Mitt Romney's speech on Thursday.

Organist · Senior Member

Worship God, don't take his name in vain, no idols, honor the sabbath, honor your parents, don't steal, don't kill, don't covet, don't lie. I don't see how supporting the constitution is an automatic byproduct of living the 10 commandments.

The constitution is a procedural document. I think one of the most important principle in the constitution is its series of checks and balances that don't allow any one person to have absolute power, thus helping to protect rights that would otherwise be taken away by any corrupted person (politician). That is the principle worth protecting. The specifics of those checks and balances aren't nearly as important as long as they they work. Other important principles are contained in the preamble and the ammendments.

The dedicatory prayer at the Kirtland temple supported the principles of the constitution, not necessarily the specifics of the constitution itself.

-- Edited by Organist at 16:42, 2007-12-08

dilbert · Senior Member

Does the constitution allow for a king?

Because my understanding is that once Christ returns and the Millennium is in full swing we will be living in a theocratic kingdom, not a democratic republic.

I love the wisdom and security of checks and balances (and I find their erosion disturbing). But exactly what kinds of checks and balances do we think we need or can impose on the Savior?

The constitution of the United States is a wonderful document for a government in a telestial world, but I'm not sure how well it will apply to government in a terrestrial world.

dilbert · Senior Member

As I wrote my preceding post, a question occurred to me.

I'm right with anyone who believes that the constitution is an inspired document. But what about amendments? Do we believe that every amendment that has been ratified is also inspired and established by God? Do we believe that God would never allow an amendment to be ratified if He didn't approve of it?

I'm not trying to make any particular point here--these are just idle musings...

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

We got our Christmas card from Mitt today. Great family pic on the front. I guess he's a little politically correct because it said, "Merry Christmas!"

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I get a letter from Mitt like every week.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

yeah, we do too... but I enjoyed the card.

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

dilbert wrote:

Does the constitution allow for a king?

Because my understanding is that once Christ returns and the Millennium is in full swing we will be living in a theocratic kingdom(not sure I completely comprehend that)-hiddentreasure, not a democratic republic.

I love the wisdom and security of checks and balances (and I find their erosion disturbing). But exactly what kinds of checks and balances do we think we need or can impose on the Savior? (Without sin the savior was baptized, additionally one of the 12 betrayed him, so there may need still be principles to live by durting that time would there not? Will the savior do everything or will not there be dlegation and representatives?)

The constitution of the United States is a wonderful document for a government in a telestial world, but I'm not sure how well it will apply to government in a terrestrial world.

dilbert · Senior Member

By "theocratic kingdom" I meant that Christ will be King. The Big Cheese. The Supreme Ruler of the World. That means the government will be a kingdom (and since He is a God, His kingdom would necessarily be theocratic). He won't run for election every 4 years. Whatever he says will be law. It wouldn't matter if the majority of people wanted to vote him out of office, they would not be able to do so. Obviously that isn't going to happen, but I'm saying there would be no provision for impeaching Christ in the government that He will set up. It seems to me that the constitution would need a MAJOR overhaul in order to accommodate Christ's reign on earth.

I would never, ever want to see a mortal man with that kind of power, but I long to see my Savior as the absolute ruler of the earth. The way I understand it, there would not be checks on His power, at least not anything like what we have in our constitution. Of course there will be a check--His goodness. And that will be enough. But again, we don't have a constitution that gives that kind of power to one person (and rightly so). I love the constitution and am very thankful that we have it for the here and now. But I'm not convinced that it will be of much practical use in the millennium.

Oh, and I'm sure He will continue to do a lot of delegating during his millennial reign. But those serving under Him will answer to Him, not to the people they are serving. Just like how it works with ecclesiastical leaders today. The checks on those leaders will come from Christ (and God the Father), not from other mortals. But since everyone will "grow up without sin unto salvation," it doesn't sound like there will be much problem with pride, power-seeking, embezzlement, or other corruption in His kingdom.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well said dilbert (nice to "see" you around again

).

I'm not so sure many of us really understand or can envision the system that will be in place when The Savior reigns and how things will evolve into it. And I'm pretty sure very few of us are ready to live under that sort of system yet. Things will likely be so different and "foreign" to our way of thinking, even down to economic activity worldwide and WHY things are being done.

This is just my opinion, and I think that maybe part of how it will work is that those who will be alive at the time will know that The Savior will be free of all the vices that would lead to the various problems we encounter today in our various systems and political beliefs... competition, cynicism, dishonesty, unfairness, lack of love and charity, pandering to constituents, selfishness, waste, greed, and a whole list that goes on and on.

If we're living the gospel as best we can, then I think that our supporting the righteous law of the land, which ever nation we are a citizen of, is a natural by product. That is where I was going with the Ten Commandments and supporting and sustaining the Constitution concept. Now, there are certainly others who will (and have in not so many words) say that unless one is supporting and sustaining the Constitution after the manner of their interpretation, then one is either a fence sitter or in the camp of those opposed to Liberty...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

If you don't agree exactly with my perception, then you must be an atheist and a communist. Which is what your starting to sound like, Cat, with that last comment so obviously based in godless moral relativism.

Hit any buttons yet? Not even one? You know me too well. wink

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Oh rats... it's the red hair and mentioning of economy thing again, isn't it roper?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

If Mitt can simply start the mantra...

PEACE, PROSPERITY and PROTECTION and say it OVER and OVER again, he can win it all.

Isn't that the role of the POTUS?

Keep us safe, allow freedom for economic prosperity and secure peace around the world.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

What would Horatio Bunce say to Mitt Romney?
from: http://www.juntosociety.com/patriotism/inytg.html

Mr. Romney, you have demonstrated that either you have not capacity to understand the Constitution, or that you are wanting in the honesty and firmness to be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me. Perhaps your understanding of the Constitution is very different from mine. I believe you to be honest. But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the more honest he is.

You indicated recently that you would violate the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when the President once begins to stretch his power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. Because you are a Mormon, I'd like to think you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think I completely miss what your point is lundbaek... Are you Mr. Bunce? If yes could you please explain what you mean by those comments? If not I suppose I will just have to remain confuse cause nothing in your post makes any sense to me at all... There are a lot of accusations, but very little if any explanation of how the conclusions were drawn...

I am starting to follow Coco's example... I no clicky or at least I don't follow political links off this forum any more, cause 3 times now I have ended up with inappropriate content being displayed through ads on the sites linked to. Things I would be embarrassed to have my teen kids witness on my screen, if they walk by, so I am left with staying away from youtube political links completely... Youtube seems to have decided that is a whole new market for sleaze ads, and if I block the ads on youtube, I block about 3/4 of the videos as well... very bad form by youtube if you ask me... I also don't click on or follow URLs that are NOT clearly safe from spyware not to mention hackers/viruses. You might be interested in knowing that I got a warning from my ad blocking program AND my spyware program regarding you link site...

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Horatio Bunce holds no sway one way or the other with me. Maybe if he looked like Heather Locklear, I'd be more ameniable.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Judge Robert Bork has just given his endorsement to the Romney Campaign... He's a pretty strict constitutionalist judge too... woot! GOOOOO Mitt!!!

--Ray

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

But he looks nothing like Heather Locklear!!!!!

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hether Locklear is soooo last century. What about Jessica Alba? wink

DaKnife · Senior Member

She's Preggers, try again.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Why? It's like when Catherine Zeta-Jones was pregnant: Still smokin.

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

If we're talking this generation then it has to be Jennifer Love Hewit!!

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

PollyAnna wrote above: I think I completely miss what your point is lundbaek... Are you Mr. Bunce? If yes could you please explain what you mean by those comments?

I posted those comments to remind readers that Mitt Romney has demonstrated either lack of understanding of the US Constitution or no intention to be bound by its principles. The story that can be accessed via the link is taken from an old book written in the late 1800s The Life and Times of Davy Crockett, and is about Mr. Bunce, a farmer, scolding then Congressman Crockett for voting for an unconstitutional action. Its a good story; I was hoping people would read it.

I have written this before on Bountiful, but Mitt Romneys mandatory health care program that he initiated while Governor of Massachusetts violates a constitutional principle, basically the same one as Davy Crockett violated. (And apparently it is costing MA taxpayers more than planned I grew up in MA and still have family and friends there, all staunch Democrats).

The other, more recent snub of the Constitution by Romney occurred in a recent debate, when Mitt stated that as president he would consult lawyers about taking the US into a war. It took Ron Paul to remind him and hopefully others listening that it is the responsibility of the Congress to declare war, not that of the president, with or without lawyers. The media allowed him to skate on that one, but those of us who want to return to constitutional government are using that to beat up on those who prefer to ignore the Constitution whenever its convenient. If Ron Paul had made an error of such magnitude, the media would have crucified him. I believe the other candidates, and it seems maybe most Americans would just as soon be shod of the Constitution.

I happen to one of perhaps 22000 voters in Utah and some thousands spread over the rest of the country, judging by the Nov 2006 elections, who desperately hope for a return to constitutional government. What was intended by those who wrote the Constitution and I believe the Lord, who acknowledged His having inspired it, as a constitutional republic has been degenerating into a socialist dictatorship. Back in the 60s and 70s Prophets and Apostles pleaded with us (Ezra Taft Benson broke into tears at least once in the Tabernacle) to study the Constitution and support it thru education and voting for candidates who would support and be bound by it. It appears they cannot do that any longer. The current crop of LDSs in Congress have failed, some quite miserably, to abide by the Constitution, as their voting record shows. And so many people who should care dont care or dont know enough to care.

One might correctly assume that I beat up on Mitt Romney. Nothing personal, but I expect him, of all candidates, to adhere to moral and constitutional principles. I have posted on this forum in the past links to reports of his failures in this. People want to argue about it and deny it, thats sad.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

lundbaek wrote:
The media allowed him to skate on that one, but those of us who want to return to constitutional government are using that to beat up on those who prefer to ignore the Constitution whenever its convenient.

How nice... at least we know which wet noodle all y'alls will be beating us with. I think the accusation on Romney may be taken somewhat out of text. I doubt that he was actually saying that he would bypass Congress for approval to go to war (if war is necessary during his anticipated tenure in the White House). I think he was indicating that he would include lawyers familiar with a variety of law understanding (including Constitutional as well as international and diplomatic) in his advisory committees... perhaps not in as specific of words though.

If Ron Paul had made an error of such magnitude, the media would have crucified him.

Do you really think so? How about he make that same verbal error and let's see if anyone other than his supporters even notices it...

I believe the other candidates, and it seems maybe most Americans would just as soon be shod of the Constitution.

Shod? As in having a metal plate placed on our feet? If you are meaning free, I don't see that or any synonym for that under the definition of shod... I feel sad for you if you really believe that the other candidates and most Americans don't give a lick about the Constitution or the liberties we enjoy in this nation, cuz it looks like you really have put some thick blinders on based off the political beliefs you have adopted and espouse.

We have been told and counseled by living prophets and apostles since at least 1971 to avoid emotionalism and extremes. Avoiding the extremes is not limited to modesty, dress, music, and ways of the world... it also includes many other things like philosophies, politics, fads, diet... etc.

Everytime I hear the "sky is falling" type arguments, I am reminded of Pres. Hinckley's conference address from October 2001...

dianoia · Senior Member

I like that link you gave, Cat. I'll add this one.

Instruments of the Lord's Peace

Here's my two favorite bits:

I recall that as a graduate student I wrote a critique of an important political philosopher. It was clear that I disagreed with him. My professor told me that my paper was good, but not good enough. Before you launch into your criticism, she said, you must first present the strongest case for the position you are opposing, one that the philosopher himself could accept. I redid the paper. I still had important differences with the philosopher, but I understood him better, and I saw the strengths and virtues, as well as limitations, of his belief. I learned a lesson that Ive applied across the spectrum of my life.

President George Albert Smith observed, There is nothing in the world more deleterious or harmful to the human family than hatred, prejudice, suspicion, and the attitude that some people have toward their fellows, of unkindness. 16 In matters of politics, he warned, Whenever your politics cause you to speak unkindly of your brethren, know this, that you are upon dangerous ground.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think Romney's just the one of those Elders determined to save the Constitution!

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

I am not convinced that Romney is intentionally doing any wrong.
I do notice that his position has changed recently to a more conservative one, to hich we can only speculate as to why he is now making a more "conservative" stand from where he used to be against conservatives.

Either way I have concluded based on his passed actin is is not Constitutionally literate or constitutionally supportive enough to my likings.

another point of view..

The Cato Institute points out that Romney's health insurance program is also costing much, much more than was advertised. Romney doesn't mention this fact when he talks about the program.

A few other things that worry me about Romney:

* He's been a long-time advocate of gun control.

* He increased spending as soon as the state budget stabilized.

* He has said he would not abolish the Department of Education.

* In fact, he has not named a single federal agency that he would abolish. There are several useless, unconstitutional agencies that could and should be abolished. When he was asked during one of the debates to name a program or agency he would cut, he didn't name a single one.

* He once attacked the Boy Scouts over their policy of not allowing gays to be troop leaders.

* He claimed he would do a better job on gay rights than Ted Kennedy would do.

* Until just a few years ago, he was outspokenly in favor of keeping abortion legal.

* Until just a few years ago he was critical of conservative Republicans.

_________________
Mike Griffith
LDS Information Web Page
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id58.htm

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

I think Romney's just the one of those Elders determined to save the Constitution!

And what actions as a politician has he taken that give you that belief?

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cat Herder wrote:
I'm not so sure many of us really understand or can envision the system that will be in place when The Savior reigns and how things will evolve into it. And I'm pretty sure very few of us are ready to live under that sort of system yet. Things will likely be so different and "foreign" to our way of thinking, even down to economic activity worldwide and WHY things are being done.

Actually, I think Christ's organization will look a whole lot like the church, with Christ where President Hinckley is now. The church is currently the Kingdom of God on the earth.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Duke of Mirth wrote:

If we're talking this generation then it has to be Jennifer Love Hewit!!

Please, Jennifer Love Hewitt is the poor man's Alyssa Milano.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

http://www.mittromney.com/News/In-The-News/AP_Bork

GOOOOOOOO MITT!!!!

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 12:09, 2007-12-18

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Hoss Cartwright wrote:

Duke of Mirth wrote:

If we're talking this generation then it has to be Jennifer Love Hewit!!

Please, Jennifer Love Hewitt is the poor man's Alyssa Milano.

Yea but none of Jennifer's costars went gay after working with her! Plus her middle name is Love!! biggrin

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I was once caught picking my nose while stopped at a red light...

Sadly, I laughed in first grade when other kids made fun of a classmate instead of standing up and calling them to repentance for their cruel and emotionally scarring behavior...

I once called the boys in my Scout Troop a bunch of idiots because of the idiotic and foolish things they were doing (and some of the boys didn't like it)...

Lifting the seat has not always been an automatic thing for me to do...

My budget is not stabilized, but I spend anyway...

I voted for Jimmy Carter in the mock elections held in fifth grade...

I have not abolished all the weeds in my lawn, or the various shrubbery or other landscaping items that a landscape architect advised would be good to do away with, nor have I consulted my neighbors on what types of flowers I should plant...

Obviously, Cato (who has been out of work since Inspector Clouseau got that transfer to head up investigations on the other side) will find me lacking as well.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

http://www.mittromney.com/Ann-Romney/

(Another reason that Mitt's gonna save the Constitution!)

GOOOO MITT and ANN!!!

--Ray

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Duke of Mirth wrote:

Yea but none of Jennifer's costars went gay after working with her! Plus her middle name is Love!!

OOH, dish: Which one is gay?
Judith Light?
Tony Danza? (as in "hold me closer, Tony Danza")
Shannon Doherty?
Arnold Schwartzenegger?

Tell me!!!!!!!!!

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

hiddentreasuredotws wrote:

* He once attacked the Boy Scouts over their policy of not allowing gays to be troop leaders.

So? That's a stupid rule anyway.

If a chartering organization wants to exlude gay people from its troop fine, but if a chartering organization wants to let them serve, said organization should be able to do so. IMHO.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cat Herder wrote:
I once called the boys in my Scout Troop a bunch of idiots because of the idiotic and foolish things they were doing (and some of the boys didn't like it)...

That's the BEST you could come up with? I say you're not a true (male) scout leader until you've thrown someone in a lake or something.

I voted for Jimmy Carter in the mock elections held in fifth grade...

Dude, how DARE you have the temerity to don the MR. Incredible spandex after such an abominable act!

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm voting for Mitt because he is a Mormon.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Ooh, ooh, me too!