Cat Herder is no longer a moderator

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

RE: Cat Herder is no longer a moderator

arbilad · Head Chef

Forum rules call for the possibility of closing a thread for a short "cooling off" period. Now, I won't make that decision, but if one of the other moderators makes the call (by posting to this thread "Yes, please close it for X number of days") then I will go ahead and close the thread for the period of time specified.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Yes, let's close this down for a bit and let feelings cool down.

That or ban everyone but me...

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I vote to close it until at least Friday. (I'm not technically a mod... so I don't know if my vote is allowable.)

arbilad · Head Chef

Amazing, Bok, your post made it in at the same time as I was closing the thread. Anyway, I'll combine your two requests. Mirk didn't specify a period of time, so at his suggestion as mod, I closed it, and I'll take Bok's suggestion to leave it closed till Monday (unless one of the mods objects, in which case bring it up in the staff area).

arbilad · Head Chef

For what it's worth, this thread is now open again.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Wrong thread

-- Edited by PollyAnna at 09:37, 2007-11-26

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

bokbadok wrote:
DaKnife, I am frankly appalled at this post. I agree that you probably don't belong in this discussion, with your limited occasional lurker's view of the situation.

In your reading of this thread, you must have missed arbilad's early apology for the way his decision was carried out. ...... I think you owe arbilad an apology for your terse demand.

Arbilad's decision is not up for a vote.

Just thought I'd chime in:

1. Bok, the only reason you're "appalled" (puhleeeeze) at DaKnife is because you agree with the decision. I'm "appalled" at your response to DaKife. So there.

2. Da Knife was absoutely correct. Is this forum "Bountiful, a gathering a of equals" or "Arbilad's personal Forum where he gets to make all the rules and the wishy-wahsy Mormons just take it?" If so, then Cat and Ray need to start a different forum. Let me know where I can donate.

3. Just because someone "apologizes" doesn't make everything right. If you let the bad act stand, or continually repeat the bad act, then your apologies are worthless.

4. Why is Arbilad's decision NOT up for a vote? Hello? He's just a normal old fallible human like everyone else. Time to stop thinking like sheep.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I still believe Cat should be reinstated as moderator. I believe that certain folks have simply mistaken their objections to him as something personal, when in reality, I think it's just a matter of simple statistics, and I don't believe Cat's picking on them.

1. He moderated the most popular forums at Bountiful.
2. He is the second most prolific poster at Bountiful.

You said it yourself in defending your actions, Arbi. Any action of moderation is going to be met with some hostility. By that very reasoning, the fact that Cat has elicited some hostility is not evidence he isn't doing his job properly.

You're the board admin, Arbi. In that role, you should administer the technical aspects of the board.

You should not be in the business of validating every member's hurt feelings, we should all be looking out for each other's feelings...

I don't believe you should not be the sole decider on whether a moderator should stay or go, either, or be made to feel that if you don't oust a moderator that other board members will leave.

I don't expect Cat will want to moderate anymore, knowing that there are those who don't want him to be moderator anymore, but he should at least be given the option to return. And we should establish a better method of working out these conflicts other than the PM-a-thon.

Surely you can see, now that you've cooled off, that removing Cat as moderator was a logical nonsequitur.

--Ray

PS> Bok perhaps Da Knife's reaction is what other's see when they haven't been busy PMing others, but just observing as outside observers?

-- Edited by rayb at 12:11, 2007-11-26

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I would really prefer that people send emails to Arbi on this matter rather than being public. I will say that I would support the decision to have Cat be a moderator again.

Being public is not always good especially when we are discussing people close to us that we care about their feelings.

I will say that I hope that no friendships are lost in either direction on what may be technical issues. In the long run, it doesn't matter how many moderators we have. It does matter that we get along. I enjoy everyone here and would feel the loss of someone who has been so much apart of this forum since I began reading and participating.

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, I appreciate that you feel very strongly on this issue. Obviously, when you feel that a certain course of action is necessary, you should advocate that and work towards that. However, I have made my decision and I stand by it.
If I decide not to post any more on this subject, please don't feel that I am ignoring you. I just feel that I have said everything that I should say. I have found that when I endlessly repeat my positions, I am no longer reasoning but arguing. I am always working on shutting down my argument reflex, because religiously speaking it is very harmful.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm disappointed in your response, Arbi, and find it woefully lacking in reason. I admit I'm being tenacious, but I don't think I'm deliberately attempting to hurt anyone's feelings or stomp on anyone's toes--not even yours.

During this discussion, I've been baited repeatedly to make the conversation personal, to really vent my feelings, but I think I've been fairly on task of late.

What has happened has been unfair to you too. I don't think you should've been put in the situation you were.

I wish you could be more forthright about what really led you to this decision, besides some arbitrary and (imo) illogical basis for the choice you made, which I believe I've demonstrated is a natural consequence of sheer numbers.

Everyone makes mistakes. I believe at this point, I will settle this in my mind as you have made a grievous one, and I'll do my best to forgive and forget.

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

What has happened has been unfair to you too. I don't think you should've been put in the situation you were.
You seem determined to pin the blame for this on someone, Ray. Who exactly do you think is responsible now? Oh... wait. The Coven. Right?

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

There is no need to be snippy Bok. With anyone. Really you don't.
Frankly I've grown weary of the whole thing and so has Cat. Obviously I haven't decided to leave, and I can't speak for Cat. He is just keeping his distance right now because emotions are high right now.
I think I may have said this before, I don't know, I don't feel like going back and reading over previous posts, the whole thing is very unfortunate and sad. All the way around.
I imagine there is private message marathons going on right now.

I must say however that this isn't the same Bountiful I joined. Oh wait, I guess I should post that statement on that other thread about Bountiful.

Maybe that's why Jason decided to leave.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 17:40, 2007-11-26

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 17:42, 2007-11-26

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Snippy? Huh. What is it when Ray calls any woman who disagrees with Cat a witch? What is it when Ray refers to arbilad as a dictator, tyrant, and despot one week and then turns around and then switches to "what has happened has been unfair to you, too"? Forgive me for feeling snippy. It happens around here.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

bokbadok wrote:

Forgive me for feeling snippy. It happens around here.

No doubt. That's quite apparent. Forgive me for saying anything at all. If I'm not mistaken though I believe Ray apologized too, but what do I know? I wish more people would learn how to use that word.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 18:08, 2007-11-26

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm sure you see yourself as a champion for your own righteous vision, Bok, cuz I'm sure you see me 100% correctly, but of late you've been very antagonistic, and so for the sake of what appears to be your desire, I'll address your comments over the past week directly...

You keep bringing up things that are irrelevant to our discussion, as though you can characterize my opposition as prejudice of some sort so that you can easily dismiss my points rather than actually discuss them. The "coven" comment is from a comment I deleted believing it owuldn't help things, yet you've brought it up again. You claim that I am making up information to support my suppositions, but when I discussed things in the chatbox, I received confirmation that PMs had been sent to Arbi about Cat as moderator, that they had been sent to other members of the board as well. Maybe it's not a conspiracy, but I never called it that, and the one time I used the word you keep quoting and can't seem to let go of, it was in a question, not in stating I believed it to be fact. In the Admin forum, you ressurrected Nauvoo and claimed, and in the deserted thread, you claimed that I knee-jerk defend Cat.

I'm disappointed in your multipronged attempts to bait me with highly charged and emotive comments so that you can dismiss my points as simple biases that are not worth considering...

These may be biases, I don't know, but they certainly didn't come out of nowhere.

Rather than attacking me, could you please stick to the actual issues? The point of discussion?

When the decision to remove Cat was initially announced I remember reading how you objected--but then something changed. Was it because you saw Cat as deserving? What convinced you? Do you think Cat should be removed as moderator?

All of you who fight this, do you believe he should not be moderator anymore? C'mon 'fess up...

I am trying to stay on topic. This thread is about Cat being removed as moderator. I am discussing it publicly because I believe I am still entitled to do so. I have been trying to discuss why Cat should remain a moderator, and why the discord that is misattributed to Cat could simply be a matter of statistics--and that the ousting didn't follow the implied procedure...

It's not secret (thanks to a certain chatbox discussion, in which I asked specific board members outright if they thought Cat should be given back his moderatorship, and to my surprise there were a few who confirmed not only that but that they'd been PMing about the matter) that a number of the board disagrees with Cat being a moderator, and believe that they have been picked on by Cat, and others of this board, and yet they hide behind what's been done, rather than actually talk about why they feel justified in having him be removed.

They can claim that they won't be heard, yet currently all the evidence sure seems to be falling into their side of the court. I see no evidence that Arbi's gonna change his mind, and why should he? I don't pm him... In this whole affair I've sent but one single PM, and that was to see if you'd withdraw your response to my summary in a different thread.

What I state I state in the open, or I don't bother stating it.

Meanwhile other board members who've been prominent contributors in the past, have simply up and deleted their membership... have withdrawn their participation as moderators, and others are noting how the board has changed...

It may be that you're in the majority... but we'll never know that now, well we?

It is apparent that my discussion will not change Arbi's mind, and that saddens me, but instead you see fit to further rub it in, to attack me and mischaracterize my attempts to discuss this issue. Why can't you just be happy you got what you wanted?

Better yet, you could go post a constructive thread somewhere, actually start a thread about something interesting...

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I know how to use the word, poncho. But I only like to use it when I am actually remorseful. Insincere apologies are a dime a dozen.

My beef is not with you, poncho. I hope you believe that. Maybe if I put in a cute little smiley emoticon you won't be so annoyed with me?

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

I've tried to stay out of it. I tried.

Here's the thing, Ray. Yes, you deleted that comment regarding the coven. However, it was said. And it was read by a lot of people. And I assumed that I was part of that coven since I'm female and a member of this board. Further, there was never an apology for use of that word and all its implications. I'm not asking for an apology, but it's hard to forget things said like that.

Also, during that chat, it was said, repeatedly, that no one asked for Cat to be removed as a mod. It was said that pm's were sent to arbi and some of them were about Cat. But I do not remember anyone ever saying that they asked for Cat to be removed. You may continue to think that there was some sort of campaign to remove Cat by people from this board (and according to the chatbox, you feel it was instigated by the women of the board), but from what I've seen from arbi's explanation, it was a decision he made.  That doesn't negate that some people may feel that it was a correct decision. I don't know.

Frankly, I'm appalled (and yes, I chose this specific word) at alot of people's words, including yours.  So here's what I propose....let's all just forgive each other and start afresh. Let's discuss the issues and leave snippiness, name-calling, reactive responses, and unkind remarks behind.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb, I can't believe you would act all kumbaya in the chat and then do this. I was totally open with you. We all were. We were honest about what had been said (and what had NOT been said). Then you turn around and twist things to fit your little agenda? This will certainly color how I interact with you from now on, specifically being very careful to trust.

For the record, Beefche is right.

I want my part of that on record. When Cat was moderating-but-not Coco and I, I probably sent her a PM or two complaining about it. I might have done the same with others I know. I can't remember ever mentioning anything to Arbi. Whatever those conversations were, there weren't any talks of Cat needing to be ousted and how, as much as that might disappoint ray. It just never happened, in PM's, instant messages, phone conversations, IRL, or otherwise.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Um. Bok and Beef you both were not there for the full duration of the chat. I felt that I had sufficiently proven that PMs were sent to Arbi regarding his moderation to my satisfaction. I also proved that members of the board felt "picked on" by Cat. One tried to find out if Cat and I had something against women.

That aside, I used the word "coven" in a rhetorical question, as something that remains UNANSWERED. I didn't state it as fact, or even my own supposition, but as something that one in Cat's position might think, due to the irrational nature of what appeared to him to be Arbi's harsh disciplinary action . . .

I'm glad to hear you're not party to the given supposition. Further my point for bringing it up in the discussion remains true... it would be innappropriate to PM the board Admin to exercise absolute power on a moderator.

--Ray

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

yeah, Jen, I'm a big horrible agenda twisting rodent. I named no names here. I have only formulated what I understood to be the case. The problem is we're lumping together what you said, with what others said.

--Ray

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think it's all a moot point now. All this arguing...

Even if Cat was given his moderator status back I seriously doubt he would take it.
Why would he want to? It's not going to happen anyway.

Thanks for standing up for him Ray. You know how much it means to him and myself.
He is and never was the big, bad mean old Cat. And Ray, is not the big, bad mean old Ray.

Let's move on, shall we? Please.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

When the decision to remove Cat was initially announced I remember reading how you objected--but then something changed. Was it because you saw Cat as deserving? What convinced you? Do you think Cat should be removed as moderator?
Your wish is my command.

I objected to the announcing of arbilad's decision without prior private notification given to CatHerder. I did not object to the decision itself.

I do not think Cat is a good fit as a moderator, for many of the same reasons that arbilad articulated. Cat wants the authority to make rules and direct other board members' behavior, but he also wants the freedom to be able to say anything he wants all the time, other people's feelings be hanged. I don't think unfettered freedom of expression and leadership mix well.

Additionally, I don't think that you, Ray, are a good fit as a moderator either. Your penchant for stirring the pot blows your credibility as an authority figure all to hell with me. I've long since stopped taking anything you say seriously, because I know from experience you'll turn around and say the almost exact opposite within a week. You are unpredictable, moody, and a self-proclaimed trouble maker. You get away with it by using humor when other people would be moderated for saying the same thing seriously. It isn't funny, and it isn't behavior that befits a community leader.

Not a personal attack; just my raw, honest opinion. That is all.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'll get behind that, especially considering today.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Bok wrote:

Your wish is my command.

I objected to the announcing of arbilad's decision without prior private notification given to CatHerder. I did not object to the decision itself.

I do not think Cat is a good fit as a moderator, for many of the same reasons that arbilad articulated. Cat wants the authority to make rules and direct other board members' behavior, but he also wants the freedom to be able to say anything he wants all the time, other people's feelings be hanged. I don't think unfettered freedom of expression and leadership mix well.

Additionally, I don't think that you, Ray, are a good fit as a moderator either. Your penchant for stirring the pot blows your credibility as an authority figure all to hell with me. I've long since stopped taking anything you say seriously, because I know from experience you'll turn around and say the almost exact opposite within a week. You are unpredictable, moody, and a self-proclaimed trouble maker. You get away with it by using humor when other people would be moderated for saying the same thing seriously. It isn't funny, and it isn't behavior that befits a community leader.

Not a personal attack; just my raw, honest opinion. That is all.

thanks for the honesty, Bok. That's exactly the type of response I was hoping for.

Wouldn't you like to put that to a vote? To see if your opinion was shared by all the members of the board? That I am an unfit moderator for the Humor forum? like to put it to vote.

And if folks would like to discuss my fitness as a moderator PLEASE start a thread in the moderation forum about it.

--Ray

PS> Bok, it's an interesting exercise to evaluate the last time you contributed an actual article of interesting discussion to the nonmoderation forums... it seems moderating the moderators has become your current hobby.

-- Edited by rayb at 19:35, 2007-11-26

arbilad · Head Chef

What say ye, gents and ladies, should I close this thread again? It has lost any patina of civility.
I'm not interested in, and will delete, any accusations of who started it, who was uncivil, etc. I know I'm opening myself up to all sorts of accusations, but this is not the tone I want for this forum.

coolcucumbers · Senior Member

close it, and lets move on!

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Yeah.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

bokbadok wrote:

I do not think Cat is a good fit as a moderator, for many of the same reasons that arbilad articulated. Cat wants the authority to make rules and direct other board members' behavior, but he also wants the freedom to be able to say anything he wants all the time, other people's feelings be hanged. I don't think unfettered freedom of expression and leadership mix well.

Additionally, I don't think that you, Ray, are a good fit as a moderator either. Your penchant for stirring the pot blows your credibility as an authority figure all to hell with me. I've long since stopped taking anything you say seriously, because I know from experience you'll turn around and say the almost exact opposite within a week. You are unpredictable, moody, and a self-proclaimed trouble maker. You get away with it by using humor when other people would be moderated for saying the same thing seriously. It isn't funny, and it isn't behavior that befits a community leader.

Not a personal attack; just my raw, honest opinion. That is all.

Wow. I'm just amazed. Utterly amazed at how completely wrong you are about Cat. What you described about him is not who he is and I'd like to see where he has not cared about other people's feelings or where he feels like he should be able to say whatever he wants. Prove it.

I think you are describing yourself, not Cat.

As for Ray, yeah he is a self-proclaimed trouble-maker, but there are a multitude of trouble-makers around here, including yourself and it's a good thing you are not a moderator. (No offense intended). Which goes to show that no one is perfect. If you are looking for the "perfect" moderator you aren't going to find one.

Thank you for finally being upfront and honest Bok.

Well, since Cat has been driven away and so has Jason and now probably Ray, I don't see much point in staying myself.
If anyone was going out of their way to drive certain members to leave, they succeeded.

Is this the Bountiful you envisioned Arbi? Having people talk about people behind their backs?
Back-biting and gossip, arguing, every one person trying to "prove" their right and so forth? I don't think it is, but that is what Bountiful has become.

Gotta go now. Need to take something for my headache.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 20:08, 2007-11-26

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Perhaps closing the thread is the best solution. I find it disheartening, however, that it comes to this--that we can't continue a discussion with respectful discourse. This sure seems to be making the case for even more frequent moderation--we're sure proving we need it.