Cat Herder is no longer a moderator

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat Herder is no longer a moderator

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Gee, can I just say thanks for not even talking about it with me Arbilad...

I find out about it this way?

What a slap in the face.

Thanks for nothing...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

And thanks to the rest of you for nothing as well...

Fare well.

Arbilad, this is worse than the way I was treated at Nauvoo...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

That is a pretty bad way of letting someone know.

coolcucumbers · Senior Member

Cat don't leave. I have appreciated your comments in the short time I have been here.
And I know I have been here a short time, but Arbilad to handle it that way seems like you have a personal motive for removing Cat. More than just the contention.
Of course...what do I know?

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I said this in chat, but I will say it again! Cat, please don't leave. I look forward to your comments.

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I like to be as neutral as Switzerland. We all come here because it is a special place. Arbi has done a good thing by setting up this forum.

I think what sounds like a controversary was a huge misunderstanding.

I used to be a poetry moderator and I edited the comments of two people who happen to be present members of Bountiful(though neither have posted in a little while). I know there is pressure. Okay, it was a small forum and I made it more pressure than it was. And the two members who I edited were fine. I was over-zealous and learned my leasson. Luckily, it was not the hard way. I didn't loose any friends. I would be heart-sick if Cat and anybody else left over this incident.

Humor is so in the eye of the beholder.

I say this with love and hope that all will be well.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

My apologies for what I said earlier everyone.

I was and am deeply hurt, and the initial reaction is naturally going to be anger. I temporarily let the somewhat paranoid feeling of getting ganged up on in to the anger and hurt.

I am not going to burn bridges here. That is as much lashing out as I'm going to do. bok, we don't always see eye to eye, but thanks for helping me calm down quickly. I can always count on you for helping me that way!

You guys and gals are nuts at times, but I also consider most of you good acquaintances, and some even friends. I sometimes want to pull my hair out in frustration, but I still think you are the cream of the crop from across the river (for you dual citizens, and well, you non-dual citizens, it goes without saying you're cream of the crop)...

But Arbilad, I am really peeved at you...

You know this goes against the intent of the forum policies and procedures we created. And you know that this undermines the integrity of the forum for people feeling they are free to share their opinions within the framework of keeping with the rules and not fearing retribution by the administrator or moderators.

The very least that should have happened is to have proposed it and then discussed it as a quorum of the forum staff. And if there was a request by members of the forum that I step down, well that should have been addressed as well.

arbilad · Head Chef

I admit that my handling of this situation could have been much better. It was a hard thing to do, and I rushed into it.

coolcucumbers wrote:

Cat don't leave. I have appreciated your comments in the short time I have been here.
And I know I have been here a short time, but Arbilad to handle it that way seems like you have a personal motive for removing Cat. More than just the contention.
Of course...what do I know?

It is not just the contention over Cat's recently posted joke. I personally was not bothered by the joke, even though it wasn't one that made me laugh out loud either. There is a pattern for a long time now of contention surrounding Cat. That is an objective fact, and something that he admitted to himself. I did not assign blame. I simply don't think that that is the best thing for the forum not to have a moderator that is frequently surrounded by contention.

Cat, I honestly didn't want to cause you any distress. But this seemed, and still seems (except for the way I executed it) like the best course of action. I apologize for not taking it up with you first. My thoughts were that, since I was taking pains to avoid any recriminatory or accusatory words, that it wouldn't be that much of an issue. I was wrong, and I apologize for that.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

wow... WOW... I am speechless...

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

You know Arbilad the least you could have done was discuss it with the other moderators first.
Cat goes out of his way to avoid a confrontation and contention and so you strip him of his moderating responsibilities? Without even discussing it with him first? You say you didn't mean to cause him any distress, well what do you expect?

If you "really" have no desire to drive people away you really have a funny way of showing it. I'm probably more upset than Cat is at the moment, because it is worse than what the moderator over at Nauvoo did. Talk about heavy-handed! I think you just defined it. Personally, I feel like leaving Bountiful for awhile because of all the drama that goes on here sometimes and this was just icing on the cake.
It is an online forum for heaven's sake and it isn't worth it to get emotionally involved over things that don't really matter in the long run.

Cat just told me he isn't mad anymore and he appreciates those individuals that helped him calm down, but he is deeply hurt and that is sad.
You came to Cat Herder, and asked him to help you start this forum and he has been a faithful member since day 1 and this is the treatment he gets, when he hasn't even done anything wrong.

Like Cat said, thanks for nothing Arbi.

Ok, someone come help calm me down now.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

I admit that my handling of this situation could have been much better. It was a hard thing to do, and I rushed into it.

coolcucumbers wrote:

Cat don't leave. I have appreciated your comments in the short time I have been here.
And I know I have been here a short time, but Arbilad to handle it that way seems like you have a personal motive for removing Cat. More than just the contention.
Of course...what do I know?

It is not just the contention over Cat's recently posted joke. I personally was not bothered by the joke, even though it wasn't one that made me laugh out loud either. There is a pattern for a long time now of contention surrounding Cat. That is an objective fact, and something that he admitted to himself. I did not assign blame. I simply don't think that that is the best thing for the forum not to have a moderator that is frequently surrounded by contention.
Cat, I honestly didn't want to cause you any distress. But this seemed, and still seems (except for the way I executed it) like the best course of action. I apologize for not taking it up with you first. My thoughts were that, since I was taking pains to avoid any recriminatory or accusatory words, that it wouldn't be that much of an issue. I was wrong, and I apologize for that.

Arbilad, how about you and me switch positions and see if it isn't that big an issue to you?

Whether or not one's persona is or is not a lightening rod for contention does not constitute a valid reason to remove them as a moderator without due process (see #5 under "Wearing The Forum Moderator Hat"), particularly since the individual who was removed was not in violation of any forum rules to precipitate the action.

This rash, unilateral action of yours has damaged the integrity of this forum. Perhaps more seriously than you think. The course can still be corrected though, but your credibility as head honcho has suffered some serious damage.

On a personal note, I don't see much in an apology that I can find acceptable yet, as what you posted changes absolutely nothing about the rudeness exhibited. Maybe in time I'll mello towards it if nothing else comes down the pipeline.

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I am sending you an email, Poncho! Well, I should say, pm. I hope it will help you to calm down and all.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm sorry too. I feel badly that I didn't just keep "that one thread" closed...

I will keep my personal feelings as to the motives behind this decision to myself... they're no doubt as suspect as any of the disagreements that Bountiful has had to resolve. I'm disappointed that we cannot just accept the fact that there's gonna be disagreements with moderators, and leave it at that, but apparently there's a lot of baggage underneath this iceberg...

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

"Whether or not one's persona is or is not a lightening rod for contention does not constitute a valid reason to remove them as a moderator without due process (see #5 under "Wearing The Forum Moderator Hat"), particularly since the individual who was removed was not in violation of any forum rules to precipitate the action."

I can't seem to find your reference to Moderator rules... could you perhaps give more info?

I figure arbilad is the forum owner, and can do what he wants. While I don't agree with the execution of his decision, I feel it is completely and utterly his right to make personnel changes, without explanation if he so chooses. I disagree that the removal of a moderator should be put to a common vote... if that were the case moderators would get voted out every time a controversial decision was made.

Arbilad's integrity is intact as far as I'm concerned. I think perhaps you should not assume that your feelings are shared by the rest of the community.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I disagree, Bok.

The decision came out of nowhere... I can think of a dozen alternatives that could've been just as effective.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Reference the thread Appeal process for moderation

These policies were adopted within days of this forum's launch.

arbilad · Head Chef

Bok, Cat is talking about this quote from the Appeals Process post in Moderation Discussions:

5. A moderator can elect to resign for any reason or asked to step down as needed or requested by the Panel.
It is evidently Cat's assertion that, because of this quote, a moderator may only be asked to step down, not removed. However, earlier in that same document it mentions that the function of moderator is a power delegated from the Forum Administrator (me). A power delegated can be rescinded.
Nowhere does it mention putting the question of either granting or rescinding moderator privileges to a vote. Nowhere does it mention a public discussion process for doing so.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Not to rub salt in any wounds, but just for the sake of the future, the thought occurs to me that you could've asked him to step down. He could've then announced to the forum that he was not going to be a moderator anylonger and could've done so in a way that preserved a little human dignity.

Considering his hard work and dedication for the forum, your actions smacked of a knee-jerk reaction to a momentary disputation.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

And likewise, it states fairly clearly in the second sentence of the document:

"Where an authority is not expressly delegated to Forum Moderation, it will not be assumed to belong to Forum Moderation until due process has occurred within the Forum."

which, comes after the first sentence that states:

"Forum Moderation is a delegated authority from both the Forum Administrator / Owner as well as all individuals who participate in the Forum."

So... are all the individuals who participate in the forum in agreement with the Forum Administrator with the action taken? If not, the Forum Administrator has not acted in a manner that is consistent with the authority members have granted the administrator.

Likewise, the clause concerning asking a moderator to step down indicates it is to be made by the Panel (which, is the whole staff... not just the administrator). If the Panel now consists of solely the Forum Administrator, then the authorities and delegation that has been entrusted to all moderators has been rescinded without due process.

Ultimately, by the very document agreed to on 8/31/06, Arbilad, you do not have the legitimate power to act unilaterally, either as Forum Administrator or as the individual with the name on the activeboard account. That power is not explicitely or implicitely implied or granted by the document or rules of this forum.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, there are several factual errors in your post.
The rules state that forum moderation will not occur without due process. It says nothing about forum administration. The assigning or rescinding of moderator powers is purely an administrative act.
And as I said, this was not a case of asking you to step down. That is an option available to a panel of moderators ruling on a moderation action taken by the moderator in question. Again, I was not rescinding your moderator power based on any moderation action. Therefore the panel process does not apply. I rescinded your moderator powers as an administrative act.
Again, that document concerns forum moderation, which is not under question here. I, as administrator of this forum, felt it best that you be thanked for your service and be relieved of your moderator duties.
To put absolutely everything to a question of the forum members would paralyze this forum. For instance, recently I took the unilateral decision to change the shortcut icon displayed in the title bar for the webpage from a generic blue icon to the CTR symbol. Should I have put that to a vote of the members? I also approve or disapprove members similarly without the vote of the members of this forum.
You have yet to prove that I have violated any rule of this forum. You have quoted several rules that apply to the moderation process (the very title of the document is "appeals process"), but none that relate to the administration of this forum.
And yes, even though I am the administrator, those rules apply to me in my moderation duties as well. If you had broken the rules I would feel fully bound by every one of those rules in determining the appropriate action against you. But we are not talking about a moderation problem; this is a staffing issue.

arbilad · Head Chef

BTW, this is a perfect illustration of why I feel that we don't need a long list of rules covering all possibilities. There's a term in D&D called "rules lawyering". It refers to people who interrupt the course of the game by arguing every point of a rule relating to the play. It gets you nowhere.
Cat feels that he is correct in his interpretation, and I am confident in my application of them. The rules we are quoting are very detailed. But that hasn't helped one iota, because there is no level of detail sufficient to forestall differences of interpretation.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Sure... staffing issue...

And despite the fact the policy states that the Panel is to act as a group on asking a moderator to step down, you sidestepped that and removed an acting moderator without so much as discussing it with the individual beforehand.

You are not only acting unilateraly, but you are creating policy unilateraly.

There is so much more I could say, that my emotions beg me to say... but I'm not going to.

If this is the way you want to run "your" forum, have at it.

Isn't it funny how in the discussion of politics, everyone wants democracy and freedom and rule of law, but in the microcosm of a small forum, the bulk of the participants do not really practice that?

arbilad · Head Chef

I sidestepped nothing. I will repeat myself; if this had been over a moderation issue, then it would have been perfectly appropriate to convene the panel. But it was not. This was an administration issue. This is neither the creation or the changing of policy. Until you disagreed with this specific decision, you never tried to apply moderation rules to administration. They are two different things. I offered ample evidence for this. You have yet to prove that a policy created for something else entirely applies to this situation.
Nevertheless, I am sure that I will not convince you. I am truly sorry that this has ended on an adversarial note. Thank you for your service as a moderator and helping to keep this forum growing when it was not clear that it would.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I really doubt that Arbi did this with out days, weeks, months, whatever of mulling it over. He just doesn't strike me as a kneejerk kind of guy.

Arbilad should have talked to Catherder in private before making a public statement.

It's sounds like having Catherder as a moderator is creating more work for him, instead of less.It's Ariblad's forum, he's running it for free (thank you, btw), and if something is making more work for him, it's his prerogative to remedy that.

While my opinions remain what they are, I am sincerely sorry for any hurt I've caused or any statements I made that were out of line. My desire is never to hurt anyone.

That's all I have to say, such as it is. I was going to keep my trap shut, but I don't think it's fair that Arbilad's intentions are being so harshly criticized.

coolcucumbers · Senior Member

I also don't see what the big deal 'contention' is. I had a grandfather who liked to argue every single day of his life. He wasn't an angry man, he just liked to argue.
Some people actually like to have contention. It gives them something to 'feel'.
But then again...like I said...what do I know?

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

I've been thinking about this forum and the interactions since last night. I understand that to participate in this forum requires us to abide by the rules. I've reviewed the rules of the Forum as well as the rules listed in the moderation area.

It appears to me that everything has been set up so that either a panel makes decisions/accountability or various members are able to chip in their opinion. And that everything is to be done publicly. I was struck by this phrase listed in the Moderation rules: "The goal of Mediation is that regardless of offense, all still feel like brothers and sisters and fellow Saints, and with the end result of the process, we all will come out better than we were before; strengthened, edified, and loving one to another."

Public moderation will inherently be apt to promote feelings of unease, indignation, hurt, anger, etc. Whenever my mom scolded me in front of my peers, I was so embarrassed. I've been criticized at work by a superior in front of peers--humiliating. I do not expect that my Bishop would ever chastise me during Sacrament meeting.

The rules are clear--moderation is to be done publicly. My question is this: Why does the public moderation have to be FIRST? Wouldn't it be sensible to send a private message to someone first?

Arbi has made it a point to indicate that Cat's removal as a moderator is not a moderation, but rather an administrative decision. Since arbi is the forum owner, he has the discretion to appoint/remove members, moderators, etc. Again I ask, why does the public need to know actions FIRST? In this case, a PM or discussion in the moderator's area (wherever that is...I'm sure you moderators talk privately from time to time--which would be necessary IMO) would have been polite, kind, and appropriate.

nitasmile · Senior Member

I hadn't come here for awhile and saw this thread, it made me feel sad. Goodness. I like everyone here, I respect Arbilad and know this is his forum but Cat don't go!

Sometimes moderators do disagree- but work out the disagreements. I do agree people don't like to be criticized in public.

And if some type of sisterly/brotherly correction is necessary, that is great- go and do so privately- sort of like the scripture, unless it is an essential matter. To me it would be good to do that first and then worry about cutting someone off in such a quick manner.

Can we rewind a few days and give another chance, if he would even want it??

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat stick around.

You and I are alike in many ways.

You are one of the reasons I am here. Please stay.

I could never be a moderator because I have also caused some contention. It has never been my intention, I suppose it's just the way I am.

You and Ray give me a good laugh almost every day and I need that.

You are my hero and I hope that when my 6 year old is 15, I will treat him with the same compassion and love that you and Poncho do for your son. I will also be able to learn from you how we will move forward when our son hits his 20s etc.. I can't imagine how difficult it has been.

Looking forward to seeing you often.

M

PS Arb... this is the only computer in my home where I can access and post. All the rest have been banned or something. I can't post as often when I have to come in here so perhaps it's a blessing....I get more of my lessons prepared and better.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Nita, cat has not been asked to leave the forum. He's only been relieved of his moderating duties.

Cat, I am wondering if you think that arguing the minutia is going to change arbi's mind about this? If anything, I suspect you may be confirming his decision. Your opinion is not binding, nor is the list of rules you have been referring to. Think of them more as guidelines...

"Isn't it funny how in the discussion of politics, everyone wants democracy and freedom and rule of law, but in the microcosm of a small forum, the bulk of the participants do not really practice that?"

My kids sometimes try to pull the "it's a free country" thing too. It doesn't work then either. This board is not a democracy, never will be, doesn't need to be, and I don't think it should be.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

bokbadok wrote:
Think of them more as guidelines...
*snort*

arbilad · Head Chef

Mahonri, if you give me info about what operating system and browser you are using on the computer that won't post, and which you are using on the computer that you can't post with, and I'll figure something out. Unless, as you say, it's better for your calling if you don't post

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

bokbadok wrote:

I figure arbilad is the forum owner, and can do what he wants. While I don't agree with the execution of his decision, I feel it is completely and utterly his right to make personnel changes, without explanation if he so chooses. I disagree that the removal of a moderator should be put to a common vote...

and

This board is not a democracy, never will be, doesn't need to be, and I don't think it should be.

However, we have contributed our time and talents to building this community and therefore have ownership in it. Additionally, some have contributed financially to the survival of this community and therefore have ownership in it. I don't think the intent was ever for Bountiful to be managed like a dictatorship. Arbi made that clear from the beginning by proposing a panel of moderators.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I have to evaluate my continued participation in this forum. I'll consider it over the coming days.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I have been delegated moderator authority or not. And it has nothing to do whether I feel humiliated (which I do not, there is nothing to be humiliated about). I have made the issue of having moderator responsibility rescinded because Arbilad is completely in the wrong about how it was done. He has regularly placed himself above many parts of the intents of the rules and policies by invoking administrator privilege.

Considering my continued participation has everything to do with the inequity I feel from a significant portion of this forum's membership these days.

It has everything to do with my being tired of being hurt by people here.

There were times when I have asked politely (and maybe sometimes it came across not so politely) that previous attitudes and preconceptions be left at the door. In other words, that this was not that place across the river. And I know that didn't always go over well. But it was for your good, my good, and the good of the forum.

I had reason for requesting it. I was unceremoniously dismissed essentially for being labeled a contemptable person across the river. My opinions and particular style of communication were not appreciated and there was a certain number of people who, in my opinion, were not only secretly glad to see me be forced out of that community, but would have slammed the door on me if given the chance.

The same thing is developing here now. I used to feel like I could trust most of you. That isn't true anymore. All I can assume is that people are once again attributing all kinds of false notions to me and the things I post on a regular, recurring basis because of the treatment I have been receiving since mid summer. Over the past 6 months, I have been called things like heavy-handed, bully, bigot, ignorant, and a whole host of other concepts that include (but are not limited to) self-centered, mis-informed, prideful, misogynistic, immature, insensitive.

My credibility has gone from being the charter member who composed the only published policies upon which this forum was agreed to operate on to someone who needs instruction in what those policies mean. And like it or not, there have been times when I have been the lone voice standing up for upholding the rules, policies, and intents of this forum behind and in front of the scenes.

The forum has long gone from what used to be a culture of equal peers to a group of tribes who are now starting to vie for favor in the eye of an almighty forum administrator.

For the record everyone, unless Arbilad was misrepresenting when he approached me and others about starting this forum, it was not set up to be Arbilad's forum. It was set up to be a Member forum. Somewhere along the way, despite the likelihood that cumulatively others (current active members and other members who no longer participate) have contributed more financially to the upkeep of this forum than Arbilad, he and some of the rest of you have labeled it his forum. It could as easily have been "my" forum, or Ray's, or bok's, or any of the other original members had I or any of the others signed up for an Activeboard account. And, originally, it didn't cost anything. We opted to move to a paid forum to avoid inappropriate ad content. "Ownership" belongs to everyone who is a member of this forum, and if it has to be restrictive ownership, than anyone who has contributed financially to the upkeep is an equal owner (at least).

Anyway, I've been told I'm long winded in the past. So, let me summarize. I have to weigh whether the association with several of you is worth the continued risk to emotional abuse that I have accepted as par for the course. The grand experiment called Bountiful I agreed to participate in originally failed in late spring / early summer when our administrator decided he didn't want the forum to operate any longer under the model of shared power with checks and balances.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, I have scrupulously avoided in this thread any aspersions against you. I find it regrettable that you have stooped to personal attacks. You repeatedly accuse me of not following the rules, but you have never been able to demonstrate it. I appreciate your participation here, but I am not going to beg for it.
So, Cat, please stop it with the personal attacks and unfounded accusations. That is a level that does none of us any good.
Bok had a very good question: What do you hope to accomplish with this bickering and personal attacks?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Wow. I wonder who's perception is reality? I suppose it's somewhere in the middle. . . but so many of the things you accuse whomever of doing are things that I see coming from you sometimes. I won't be naive enough to say it's entirely one-sided. To be honest, I've felt picked on by you at times (and I'm not the only one, but for all I know, others have a problem with me, too). I also don't doubt that you really feel this way, and for that, I'm sorry. It's just disheartening and baffling to me that we're on flip sides of the same coin. :(

But my main reason for this post is to tell you this: You've been here much longer than I have. You have more time and effort invested than I do.

If my leaving would mean that you stay, and enjoy this community that means so much to you, I will willingly go.

I enjoy participating here, but I don't want to be a big part of the reason that a long-standing, emotionally invested member chooses to leave.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Arbi,

Windows Vista Home edition with Internet Explorer.

Will that help?

M

arbilad · Head Chef

On all computers, both those that work and those that don't? Somehow I feel that I won't be able to solve this through internet posts. Maybe after the holidays I'll call you and we'll work through it.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Those that work have Windows XP w/ IE (latest version).

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper wrote:

bokbadok wrote:

However, we have contributed our time and talents to building this community and therefore have ownership in it. Additionally, some have contributed financially to the survival of this community and therefore have ownership in it. I don't think the intent was ever for Bountiful to be managed like a dictatorship. Arbi made that clear from the beginning by proposing a panel of moderators.

It almost seems as if that's what Bountiful is turning into. Whether that's the intention or not, that's the direction it seems to be taking. Why is there a "panel of moderators" if there is one who can ultimately make a unilateral decision whenever he feels like it?

Arbilad, I am sorry if you felt that Cat's last post was attacking you. He and I both read it carefully before he submitted and nowhere in there do we see he is "attacking" you.
He talked about the history of this forum and how it was originally was set up and what it was originally intended to be, because people like to point out that you are the "owner" of this forum and that you should be free to do as you like with it.

I have been amazed how people around here seem to be able to interpret the rules so many different ways.

Cat and I have wracked our brains trying to figure out why he has often been a target for people's hostility and anger. We have yet to figure it out. Why is it that it is ok for others around here to be angry and everyone rallys to there side if they are hurt? But, if Cat is hurt or becomes angry he is immediately in the wrong?

Arbilad if you think that removing his moderating duties will resolve the contention that sometimes follows him you are sadly mistaken. If anything, he will be set up for more attacks, because people will realize he isn't a moderator anymore and there is no need to respect him.
It's not as though he exercised his moderating powers that often anyway.

Does Cat go out of his way to pick fights? Heck no! I've seen him go out of his way to avoid them. Contention is the last thing he wants.
The only thing that I can come up with and that I have observed that might possibly explain the reason people get upset with him is the fact that Cat stands his ground.
If he believes in something he will not back down and some people can't stand that. (Whether they want to admit it or not). He doesn't runaway.

But, there is one thing I have noticed about Cat around here that is lacking most of the time. Cat also will admit when he is wrong. He apologizes (and has done so frequently) for any wrongs or perceived wrongs he may have inadvertently made.
He has even apologized when he may not have necessarily needed to apologize.
I have seen people outright attack him, but nothing is said about that and he takes it.
Why? Because he has cared about this forum. He cares about the people in it and he cares about the integrity of this forum.

If he didn't care he would have left months ago. Any other person would have.
Cat is a man of integrity. I wish people could see that.

Whether Cat chooses to stick around remains to be seen. He's got to think on it for awhile. He really doesn't need this kind of stress from an online forum. Neither do I. We have enough stress in our lives thank you very much.
Whether I choose to join if he decides to leave remains to be seen as well. And the only reason I would leave is because I think Bountiful would be forever changed if he did.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Could we possibly take this technical discussion of Mahonri's computer problems to another thread? Or perhaps pm?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I agree Cat's a man of integrity.

If he leaves, I will.

I already hang out on a board without Cat, and I don't need two of them. I like all of you, but honestly, I can talk to all of you across the river. I can't with Cat. I still remember the day I woke up and due to the consistence intolerance and lack of patience of a few boardmembers who had the moderator's ear over there, Cat was gone. Poof!

I felt that we could've at least talked about the decision that was made. Heck, Arbi, you could've probably convinced me that you were right about the decision, if you'd put more effort into it, instead of just acting.

Bok didn't like my "just deleting" the thread, either. Did anyone?

I like Cat's straight talk about church standards. He's a believer in the "For the Strength of the Youth" pamphlet standards, and in doing things by the book. While that is pretty much the opposite of my personality, I am in admiration of the few holy men who can stand up for them and do on a regular basis. It's my opinion that Cat's one of those type of guys.

I am reminded of a story about Brigham Young, when a woman complains to the prophet about how horrible her husband is because he has all these flaws, and Brother Brigham's response was something like, "If you could see him the way God sees him, even for a moment, you would fall down and worship him."

I'm going to enjoy the Thanksgiving Holiday giving thanks for decent online friends. I see a lot of greatness in all of you, but we must stop keeping track of who did what to whom. We should take as much care to respond to the person we think despises us as the ones who love us and we don't wish to offend because they're our friends.

Lately that's been sorely lacking and I'm more than willing to admit that I've annoyed all of you plenty of times when I should've been a better person. I'm sorry for that. I hope for forgiveness and am willing to forgive, but for the sake of economics on my time, if Cat goes, I will just go back to Nauvoo.

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 23:12, 2007-11-21

arbilad · Head Chef

I didn't initiate this action as an attack on Cat, and I still don't want it to turn into attack on Cat time. I don't want to get drawn into a discussion of Cat's merits or faults. If I see something useful I can add to this thread, I will. But I honestly don't know what I can add to the thread at this point.

DaKnife · Senior Member

As I'm mostly just a very periodic visitor from across the river, I probably don't really belong in this discussion, except that from the point of a relative outsider, who has at least lurked most of the existance of Bountiful. Based on what has been posted in this thread (and only on what has been posted here)I have to take Cat's side on this. Removing him without even warning him in advance that you were going to do so? Very Very bad form indeed. As to Cat's comments, I don't see any personal attacks, just a well written commentary on the current situation.

Ultimately I'm now glad I never donated anything to support this, since it's now obvious that such support means nothing, and everybody else is just arbi's guest until they annoy him too much.

But I honestly don't know what I can add to the thread at this point.
How about a real apology for how it was handled.

Okay back to my status of mostly lurking, with the occasional post.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think what our objection has been stated: we want you to give up power to arbitrarily dismiss a moderator without some kind of warning so that they can comply.

I know it's hard, but you have the power to abdicate power and should make cat moderator again, or at least put it to a vote, even a vote of moderators and let us decide if it's time he retires as moderator.

In the very least the language of the charter needs to be clarified to indicate the powers you're claiming are yours as founder.

At this point I suspect Cat will step down as moderator for all the fuss that's been made. And if I need to, I'd gladly step down as moderator for my controversial post deletion in the humor section, or just as a matter of objection.

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 23:45, 2007-11-21

arbilad · Head Chef

How about a real apology for how it was handled.
I apologized early on in this thread, honestly and sincerely, for executing this decision in this matter.

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

I think what our objection has been stated: we want you to give up power to arbitrarily dismiss a moderator without some kind of warning so that they can comply.

I know it's hard, but you have the power to abdicate power and should make cat moderator again, or at least put it to a vote, even a vote of moderators and let us decide if it's time he retires as moderator.

At this point I suspect Cat will step down as moderator for all the fuss that's been made. And if I need to, I'd gladly step down as moderator for my controversial post deletion in the humor section, or just as a matter of objection.

--Ray

Comply with what, Ray? Do you think that it is within Cat's power to stop being a center of contention and controversy? I think we would have all preferred that there be no such contention. But I simply didn't see how it was going to happen. Do you dispute that there has frequently been controversy and contention surrounding Cat? He admits that himself in this very thread. You can construct your straw man arguments for why you really feel that I made this decision, but the fact remains that it is as I said in the beginning: it hasn't been healthy for this board to have a moderator who is at the center of so much contention.

Anyone who takes the job of board administrator for a power trip is out of his mind. This is a thankless job. No adverse action that I've had to take as administrator has been without detractors. Have I done it perfectly the whole time? No, I've made mistakes along the way. But any time that action needs to be taken I know that there will be people who will villify me. Anyone who takes the job on for fun must be a masochist.

As to your request, Ray, I will not be restoring Cat's moderator privileges. My reasons still stand for taking the action. I only wish that I had broached the matter with Cat privately before posting it publicly.

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

Oh my word, people. Stop. Please.

I think we all agree (arbi included) that arbi's removal of cat without prior notice was in bad form. He apologized.

What seems to be in controversy is the abilities/inabilities of Forum owner/administrator/whatever you call it. Perhaps that's a discussion for another thread. It might be worth discussing since, as some have pointed out, members of the board donated money to make it ad-free. But, as I see it, that's not that pertinent because it was money that was donated and not given as a guarantee of power or continued membership.

As far as people leaving or not leaving, that's a decision for individuals. Using your reason for leaving to make a point (whether valid or not) is not helpful. It's making the situation an us vs. them situation--and we can all agree that isn't an example of unity.

I don't want anyone to go. I like everyone here. I think we all need to calm down and take a breather. People's feelings have been hurt--and people are hurting. Whether now or later, forgiveness needs to be given and accepted. In order to do that, we need to be much calmer and allow the Comforter to do His job with us.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

ctr

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

Always a good guideline, Ray.