I have closed the "trip" thread in Humor because of the charged atmosphere of the discussion.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
I reopened it... to post my reply... I'd love it if those objecting to my not objecting to the joke posted would post their complaints here, so that I can agree with them and we can get on with the business of being silly in the humor department.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I don't think they are. I think their concerns were real, but that you had a difference of opinion. I stated that I would not censor you. I stated I will not censor them for their opinions. I would've preferred if they'd not focus their attack on you or me, but if they see me showing a preference to you, then I would love to discuss that--and why that preference exists.
I am sorry if it is anathema to your nature to keep the thread open, but I'd prefer to keep it open, for the same reason that they objected to your post. So that they don't come off thinking that I'm closing it because you believe you're a victim of some especially targetted attack on you. They claimed your joke was a bigotted attack on the chinese, and may have insinuated something about your nature. But to turn around and claim that they have it out for you would be to ascribe a motive to them in the same way they ascribe a motive to you. If they were to continue to antagonize you, I'd close it. But it appears they've said their point, and it's an interesting point... just one I (or you) do not share.
That said, I would've preferred that they did so in a more humorous manner or moved the object of their objections to a more objective forum.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I'm sorry if you felt I was trying to pick a fight, Cat. I wasn't. I thought the joke was dumb and stated that it wasn't funny to me. I had no plans to continue to post on the thread. It was your "stick in the mud" comment that brought me back. I'm sorry if you felt that my first post was an attack on you, but I also felt that you attacked back with your reply. So... hey, we both did something wrong in the other's eyes.
Please note that I did not call you a bigot. I think you can be insensitive at times, but I'm not crazy about name calling.
I typically avoid the humor forum. I'll have to recommit to staying away from it, or at least not commenting when I think something isn't funny, so that I won't shatter your illusions about your superior sense of humor.
But it appears they've said their point, and it's an interesting point... just one I (or you) do not share. That said, I would've preferred that they did so in a more humorous manner or moved the object of their objections to a more objective forum. Wait a second, Ray. Are you saying that it's okay to pinch someone as long as you couch it in humorous terms?
Considering that humor is in the eye of the beholder... I think a rude dig would still feel like an attack, even if it was a funny rude dig. I know you like to make your points with humor a lot, but very rarely do I think it's funny when you do it. In fact, it tends to backfire, imo.
I much prefer just simple straightforward statements... which are all too often misinterpreted. But at least there's one less layer of interpretation to fight through.
I didn't complain about the joke here in the moderation forum because I didn't think the joke was that big of a deal. It didn't offend me. I thought it was dumb, but it didn't offend me. The ensuing discussion about the nature of humor was fascinating and troubling, imo. and yes, I agree that it would have been beter to have that somehwere besides teh humor forum. It's just hard to keep the thread of the discussion when it gets moved from the origin of the conflict.
And since the thread was re-opened, I have opted to remove all my comments.
I am through with it. I hope that my unilateral decision as a regular forum member will encourages those of you who made something out of nothing to be through with it as well.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
The short answer to your question about a pinch is "Yes."
I could qualify that response, but (as a general rule) I believe everyone brings their own sense of decorum as to when a pinch is appropriate or not and to whom, and I inherently trust in the fact that we all share like covenants, and therefore are free to be quirky.
And I fully expect Cat and Poncho to pinch each other now... :)
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Sorry, Cat, but I think this issue needs talking about. You can be done if you want, but you can't tell me to stop looking for answers to this all too frequent issue; misunderstandings and communication of such. I think it's a valuable discussion. If you dont' want us to talk about you, stop making it about you. Fair enough?
I inherently trust in the fact that we all share like covenants, and therefore are free to be quirky. Your trust is misplaced, I fear. I believe that you give everyone the freedom to be quirky, but not everyone is able to give others the benefit of the doubt. I don't give myself the freedom to be quirky, so quirks in others are hard for me to identify and separate from rudeness. Does that make sense? Some people give themselves permission to be quirky and expect others to accept their quirks, but can't for some reason extend that same courtesy to anyone else.
And I fail to see how sharing covenants has one bit of bearing on the topic of quirks. LDS disagree just as much as any other group. It's the contention about the things we disagree about that is inappropriate.
I have a brother who thinks I have terrible reading comprehension... I didn't even catch the fact that you thought "stick in the mud" was a personal attack, for example.
I think it's unreasonable for me to have to keep track of which people have which chips on which shoulders... and with whom... Part of the basic premise of one's membership here is that we're all fellow saints, and that contention is something we try to avoid. I don't think there's anything wrong with a person who feels a little contention, it's how we resolve it--and so... I tend to leave things open and loose so that we can freely resolve them.
There are times when I make a comment that's controversial, for the very purpose of there being a challenge. God placed us on this earth to be challenged. He made the whole world purposefully uneven, and gave certain gifts to some and certain authorities and priviliges to others... and he wiped all our minds clear at the outset. Much of learning and growing comes in bumping up against each other.
But I'm not sure that's what you're talking about...
--Ray
-- Edited by rayb at 14:42, 2007-11-20
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
BTW, if no one objects, I'd like to Delete the thread altogether. NOw that Cat's deleted the whole joke and all his contributions to the thread and apologized it just doesn't make sense to keep it in the humor section.
It just is decidedly unfunny... with no joke, and no punchline... and just the hecklers in the audience...
I would encourage one member of the discussion to apologize to their offended parties for calling another member of the discussion a bigot. After some reflection about the content of the thread, I do feel that particular person went a bit far in their objections...
Again if folks would like to discuss my "unfair" or what they see as preferential and "predictable" defense of Cat, feel free to do so.
I'd be glad to go a few more rounds...
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I object, but obviously that was a rhetorical question since I didn't even see this post before finding that thread was gone.
The fact that you keep begging someone to object to your indefatigable defenses of Cat guarantees that I don't want to talk about it. I smell a trap. Besides, I must go and chauffeur some kids around.
Jen, I'm not sure if I understand your apology. As I see it, you are saying you're sorry you broke a rule, not that you are sorry for any hurt you may have caused by calling Cat a bigot.
Name calling is immature--the goal of such is either to inflict injury or provoke someone. You said in another area that you are sorry for "any hurt I've caused or any statements I made that were out of line. My desire is never to hurt anyone."
So, my question to you is this: Does the apology in the other thread refer to this specific event? Or does the apology in this thread stand as your reply for calling someone names?
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It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
Here's the thing. I saw it as pretty danged racist. I don't think it's a little-known fact that the whole joke of "they all look alike" is bothersome and offensive to our Asian brothers and sisters. Just because of that, however the joke was intended, I don't think any of them would see it as funny.
But I don't necessarily think that Cat is a bigot. I think he does like to stir the pot now and then, and get people a little worked up. My opinion was that that was why he posted that joke. And if that wasn't the case, I can't see beyond the racism. Maybe "bigot" wasn't the best or softest word I could have used, but what I was feeling was behind it. It felt that way to me.
BUT that doesn't mean I want to be hurtful. I didn't say it thinking, "Hey, Cat and I don't see eye to eye often, and I'm still kind of ticked about that last little barb he threw at me. This will really get him!". I said it because I thought I was seeing some pretty clearcut racism, and things like that, I just can't pass by without saying something. I WANT him to not be a bigot, so in a way I was also questioning him: are you doing this to cause a little havoc, or is this REALLY what it looks like it could be?
Either way, it was in poor taste. For that reason, I'm not sorry for speaking my mind. But I didn't say it just for the sake of being hurtful.
Ack. I can't even explain it properly. Hopefully what I've said makes sense. If not, I don't know what else I can say.
**edited to fix unfortunate typo
-- Edited by Jen at 20:12, 2007-11-21
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
I know Pollocks who laugh at Pollock jokes. I know Jews who laugh at Jewish jokes. I bet there are Asians who would laugh at Asian jokes. I think it's all in the way we take things. Sometimes people need to lighten up.
I can certainly understand your feelings regarding the joke being racist. I didn't take it that way. I thought it was not funny. But I did wonder if an Asian would feel it was humorous.
What floored me, though, was the phrasing of your displeasure. To me, it was flat out rude. You called him a bigot. Not that the joke was racist to you; not that it was in poor taste; not that you don't appreciate it. You leveled your comments directly to Cat. I don't like name calling--it's childish and un-Christ like.
I appreciate you wanting to stand up for what you believe is an injustice. I also appreciate anyone expressing an opinion--whether popular or not. As a member of this forum, what I would appreciate is if we (all of us) can express that in a better fashion than resorting to name calling. This certainly isn't aimed directly at you (ok, this specific situation is). I've seen this before with other members and I guess I'm now standing up.
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It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
And before this gets to be a "yeah huh" "nuh uh" type of thing, I'm ok with where things are now (personally). You've explained your thoughts. I've said my thoughts.
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It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
I've seen this before with other members and I guess I'm now standing up.
For the most part I still "feel" speechless... I am trying to logically communicate what my concerns are... in some fashion... Mostly, I agree with much of beef's comments... I have been sharing these happening with hubby, and I have been praying for the hurt hearts of everyone... (BTW... Ponch, email sent...)
Personally, I am disheartened. Suddenly I feel like I am in the middle of a bad "B" movie, with the main characters yelling at each other... "YOU wanna a piece of me...???" And I can't figure out how we got here...
I have to ask everyone... What happened to "benefit" of the doubt??? What happened to assume the best intent, unless PROVEN wrong? And mostly what happen to love and concern of each other's hearts?
I don't think we say hurtful things because we necessarily want to hurt others, though because of the fact that we DON'T have enough love for another. Perhaps because it takes more effort than loving some anonymous person who didn't just disagree with us but inwardly we think they should've known better or hurt our feelings insensitively, or didn't really get over the last time so and so pushed us down, that we simply don't employ as much selfcensorship or care the next time we address them.
We can all be nice to each other when we don't know each other in the hopes that we'll find a new ally. But when you know someone's stubborn or not going to change their opinion or you think they're immature and just don't understand you, that sort of person requires a lot more love.
Perhaps that's why Christ says we're supposed to love our enemies. Cuz at some level we're all really enemies.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I agree with you Ray... I do not believe anyone "intended" to hurt someone else... but like I ask my kids when they break something of value, or accidentally do something wrong that hurts a sibling... "What efforts did you make to NOT have an accident/hurt that sibling???"
Example: When Son2 was a few years younger he got into a habit of breaking a house rule (no ball throwing in the house) by bouncing a basketball against the the arm of the couch (he only did this when I was not around)... It was clearly careless on his part in my view, but he had decided that the action had not cause any problems during the 10+ other times he had done it when I wasn't there to call him on it, so he had become convinced that he knew just how much bounce to use to keep the ball in the area he wanted, and that this was not the same as the rule of NO ball throwing in the house... but let's face it, he was bending the rule and he knew it. So then, there comes the time that there is a jacket lying on the arm the couch when he throws a ball... the ball does a weird bounce... off the zipper, probably... and heads toward the wall... where it hits the antique curio cabinet and breaks it... But that's not all... it breaks a small teacup that was handed down to me by my mother and was given to her by her mother and in fact was over 150 years old and was brought from Scotland by an ancestor...
Son2 felt horrible... And he learned valuable lesson about action/result... but the truth it that for everyone involved it was a pretty big price to pay... and a HUGE price for someone that was simply NOT TRYING very hard to avoid an accident... Even at the time I accepted that the "teacup" itself was not as important as Son2... and in hindsight I can apply some powerful eternal principles that I am grateful to have learned, and grateful that he learned... but my questions to Son2, at the time, when he said I didn't mean to cause the cup and cabinet to break was... "I know son, but what were you doing to NOT cause an accident, because I can't pretend that I am not emotionally hurt by this unintentional breakage?"
In the case of this forum event... I didn't even see a lot of the conversation that caused so much strife between members, but personally I believe that unless I am actively using language and approaching others in a way that will not cause hurt "on purpose" I am not doing my part part to create a pleasant community... and the events of the last days have made me leery about expressing my sense of humor especially, which... I admit is kind of weird... It's made me wonder just how often I have said something that was hurtful, perhaps unintentionally...?
The second thing that bothers me is that I also absolutely will not put up with name calling in our home, it's simply unacceptable here... And I also admit I have a very low tollerance for it elsewhere... There will always be those that misunderstand what we are saying, and especially online it's hard not to have our words misunderstood... I have found that at those times, people can usually work out their differences if given some time to discuss the misunderstanding... but how do you misunderstand actual name calling?
So I read after the fact that Cat was called a name and then he was sanctioned, because he is a lightning rod for certain kinds of controversial posts??? Wait... let me understand... did Cat ALSO call someone a name??? If yes than he should have been reprimanded, I don't even have a problem with public reprimanding... but so should anyone else that was guilty of name calling... in any fashion...
I personally think that posting a comment like, "Cat, your joke is hurtful/offensive to me, (or someone else, if the moderator was posting)... please remove it," would probably have gotten the joke removed. But maybe I am wrong...
I am as close to a non-moderating-moderator as you can get... partly, that is because I recognize that every person here thinks they are right (including me) and you often can not change their minds (especially about politics.) But I simply find it hard to understand the words and actions of the last days.
I saw Cat's joke right after he posted it and thought it dumb... My daughter spent some time in China last year teaching 5-6 year olds... we as a family have come to love the people of China... so I thought at the very least it was narrow minded... but no more narrow minded than any other ethnic joke... which I would not tell... but I don't use bad language either... and there are more than a few "words" that I find are unacceptable for use by a polite person... nevertheless others on this board see them as okay. I have learned to be watchful of posts, because I "expect" that some members will use those words occasionally, but I suspect the rest of the board would find it unacceptable if I got angry and posted angry/hurtful comments when those words were used by others. Especially if they didn't see what all the fuss was about... And the members of the board would be right... If I choose to participate in this forum it is my responsibility to not be offended unless I have been shown that the person doing the offending intended their comments that way... Then I should bring the offense to the attention of moderation... and at that point there can be a resolution...
IMO there was nothing right about the way this problem played out, I don't really care what the rules say... actually. We all have a responsibility to play nice or leave. We don't any of us have to stay here... If you can't get over your feelings that you are targeted (and this means anyone feeling that way...) You need to find a place that you feel IS acceptable to you.
I disagree with the decision to remove ANY moderator, simply because their style of moderating is "controversial"... That would be like me wanting to see Mirk given the boot as a moderator because I personally believe that guns are evil. I won't allow them in my home... I'd rather die than use one to defend my food storage... But I will defend Mirk's right to have a different attitude and to moderate with guns blazing... as it were...
I have to admit... I am really disappointed right now, and I will be looking at my continued involvement here carefully... Maybe it is time for me to spend more time offline again.
Learning the unwritten rules of the humans I am usually around, has always been difficult for me. But I think I've got a halfway decent notion of this subject.
1- If you use a person's or group of people's appearance as a vehicle for humor, odds are, somewhere, someone will find it inappropriate.
2- You're on pretty safe ground when you make fun of yourself, as my avatar and screenname can attest.
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And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, seven hours every day. That would be the sweetest thing of all.
I've withdrawn this submission because it was expressed to me by some that they felt a summary of the events according to how I felt things had occurred would probably best not help Cat decide to stick around. And since that is my motive, I'll take their advice.
Hopefully Bok can do the same. We all have "different" motives.
--Ray
-- Edited by rayb at 01:11, 2007-11-24
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
FWIW, I think that Cat should be offered his moderator position back. I think we should acknowledge that some of us gave offense and some of us took offense, and that the issues will not be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Oh well. That's how relationships go sometimes. We forgive because we likely have needed or will need forgiveness for very similar mistakes.
It's time to move on.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I've withdrawn my summary of problems. Seeing as how I was able to chat with decent well-meaning board members on the chatbox, including Arbi to whom I was able to express my desires... and motives... :)
I apologize to those left with only a piece of this reading... but hey, what can you do?
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I had hoped that the holiday break would allow everyone to calm down.
Bok... I guess I didn't think of how my comments might be causing more contention... I apologize if that is the way my comments are coming across... I'm sorry if that sounds like I am trying to bring disharmony here.
Like the story about the feathers placed on each doorstep, the words we type are not that easily taken back... and yes we need to be willing to forgive and forget... and yet I see lots of comments made where afterwards I can understand anyone who may be wondering if they could possibly continue to express their "real" opinion anymore...
In my case, I took Ray's summary for what it was... I take a lot of what Ray says with a GRAM of salt... (and he knows that I disagree with that whole pot-stirring thing he does...) BUT, I love him like a brother... as I do Arbi, Mirk, Mahonri, Jason and Cat... and the other "guys"... I love you like a sister, especially now that I have met you... as I do Euph, beefche, dyany, and those I haven't met like hiccups, Jen and Poncho... along with all the other "gals"... It hurts my feeling of family when my brothers/sisters hurt one another... Even if I can understand why that hurt exists... It doesn't change my perception of the hurt...
I have found that every member of this board, at least those that post, to be responsible for comments that are inflammatory and callus at times. Including myself. No one is always nice and no matter what I think, I can't read someone else's heart so I try to give the benefit of the doubt, until proven wrong... But as a moderator... I am having a hard time reconciling my feelings of family, acceptance, toleration, and love for the members of this forum and the level of distrust I feel now...
Moderating is a thankless job. that most of us who have done it do because it needs to be done... not because there is some joy involved in the process... where at least in the past there was support from other moderators... and discussion... Currently, at least to me... this appears to not be the case after all. If I am wrong I would WELCOME that correction.
I don't know if anyone noticed or not, but Cat did take appropriate actions in this case. When he saw that the joke he posted was offensive to some people he asked that the thread be shut down and Arbilad did so. Ray, being the humor moderator reopened it, Cat could see that it was going to become emotionally charged and asked him again to shut it down. But, Bok wanted to talk about it and so did Ray.
Then again, maybe Cat shouldn't have deleted all of his posts on it, but I think he did so out of self-preservation. Cat wasn't even acting as a moderator in this situation, but yet his moderator status was revoked. We're still scratching our heads over that one trying to understand why... Which lead to the discussion on another thread as to whether there should be open or closed moderation.
The events on a forum seem to be no different than a car wreck... Everyone sees a different accident based on their angle and experiences...
I wasn't here in the "glory" days when the forum was less contentious... I'll have to take other's word for it... Does it appear that the dynamic changed last spring when the large influx I came with arrived...? There aren't that many from that wave of new uses that post... besides me... I wonder what THAT means...?
Hubby and I are still trying to unfold why I feel the way I do... When I get to a point where it actually makes more sense, maybe I will share. I decided figuring it out "in the open" was only dredging up more contention...
I don't know if anyone noticed or not, but Cat did take appropriate actions in this case. When he saw that the joke he posted was offensive to some people he asked that the thread be shut down and Arbilad did so. Ray, being the humor moderator reopened it, Cat could see that it was going to become emotionally charged and asked him again to shut it down. But, Bok wanted to talk about it and so did Ray. Sorry to be pedantic, but that last part about ray and I wanting to talk about it more occurred in the moderation thread, not Cat's original thread. And that's only pertinent because... well, because I'm pedantic. This is another thing that drives me nuts about the public moderation - there are no less than six different threads dealing with various aspects of this latest issue... and it is making my head hurt trying to keep track of who said what in which thread. It seems like we're just talking about problems, rather than fixing them.
I've closed the thread announcing the removal of Cat as moderator, and I'm going to move it to the Moderator area, so only those with strong stomachs will happen across it.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
