When does personhood begin?

arbilad · Head Chef

When does personhood begin?

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

When does personhood begin?When they vote Republican.

(ba-doom-BOOM!)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It would be cool if each conception were a person. Cuz my wife had three miscarriages (one was supposedly twin boys), and it would've been really cool to get to know those souls. But I don't enough about the premortal life and about the millenial/ressurrection life, or even about this life, to be able to say one way or the other.

I think in terms of defending the potential for life, it's generally a good idea, but there should always be room for exceptions.

--Ray

LEVE · Veteran Member

Here's the thougths I've always pondered from President Joseph Fielding Smith:The time of quickening is when the mother feels the life of her unborn infant. President Brigham Young has left us this explanation of the time when the spirit enters the body: 'When the spirit leaves them [mortal bodies] they are lifeless; and when the mother feels life come to her infant, it is the spirit entering the body preparatory to the immortal existence. But suppose an accident occurs and the spirit has to leave this body prematurely, what then? All that the physician says is'It is a still birth,' and that is all they know about it; but whether the spirit remains in the body [i.e, in its own body] a minute, an hour, a day, a year, or lives there until the body has reached a good old age, it is certain that the time will come when they will be separated, and the body will return to mother earth, there to sleep upon that mother's bosom. That is all there is about death.' On other occasions, also, President Young taught that we should have hope for the resurrection of stillborn children. 'They are all right,' he said, and nothing in the way of sealings or ordinances need be done for them.

(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.280)

-- Edited by LEVE at 11:33, 2007-07-20

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I think the important bit to the Church's stance on abortion is the following:

But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.

That's from lds.org Gospel Topics: Abortion.

I think that basically says that the Church admits that there are times when an abortion might be okay, but the person(s) involved bear responsibilty to make sure it's the correct course and that Heavenly Father endorses it for them.

When I was a teenager and trying to figure out my own stance on abortion, I did wonder about the wisdom of absolutes on this topic. The Church's stance suits me just fine.

On the other hand, playing on those possible exceptions has been a tool in the Pro-Choice camp's bag of tricks.

As to defining when personhood begins, do you think that measure in Colorado would have a chance to pass?

-- Edited by hiccups at 12:28, 2007-07-20

arbilad · Head Chef

Hiccups, it has a chance of passing. I'm fairly certain that it will get the 76,000 valid signatures that it needs to get on the ballot. But as for actually becoming a part of the constitution of the state of Colorado, I don't know. Some important votes have gone the correct way in recent times. For instance, we included the correct definition of marriage as part of our state constitution in the last election.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Think Boulder would secede from Colorado if it passed?

arbilad · Head Chef

Boulder would probably just ignore it. For a long time, the old Sheriff in Boulder just didn't enforce the laws against marijuana. Boulder is its own world.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Indeed it is.

You know you're in Boulder when... you see a $3000 mountain mike on top of a $200 VW bug.

-- Edited by hiccups at 12:29, 2007-07-20

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

btw, sometimes I think that some on the ProLife side of the discussion seem to come across as though they want to punish people for having sex, rather than preserving life. I think it's important to discuss the issue without using slogans and snap judgements because clearly much of this area is not clearly understood.

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Does personhood=citizenship in this case? The US constitution guaratees that citizens cannot be deprived of life without due process, and subsequent Supreme Court rulings have extended those rights to groups of non-citizens. I suspect if it passes, it will be challenged all the way to US supreme court, which will finally have to rule on when citizenship and the protections begin, which may be a very good thing with this Court.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Someday, I hope to be a person.

--Ray

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

It's what we ALL hope for...

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think the question when does personhood begin is just another way of asking when does a fetus become a baby? And, that debate will almost certainly continue until the millenium.
There are Pro-life finatics as well as Pro-choice finatics.
Yet, in the past I have heard of women being prosecuted for deliberately trying to harm their unborn baby. It's the same old argument. How many cases have their been when people have been tried for murdering a pregnant woman and charged with two counts of murder?

I remember years ago when I was in Young Women's they had someone come in and talk to us to tell us exactly what happens during an abortion and how far along a person can be to have the procedure done. The person who was giving the lecture even brought in actual fetuses preserved in jars that had been aborted. Some of them were quite large too. They looked like babies to me. That alone, no matter what my belief's or the church's belief's was enough to make me realize the impact of such a procedure. It was an experience I will never forget.
I'm not quite sure why they felt the need to do that in Young Women's but the message hit home.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Wow.

That's just creepy.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

ON a completely unrelated topic...

WHen I was in scouts we went to the Poison Plant Lab at USU. They had all these pickled fetuses of birthdefects caused by various poisonous "weeds" a sheep/cow, or other herbivore might eat by accident, causing these undesirable effects. There was a cyclops sheep, and two headed calf, or some such stuff... we loved it...

It really made me think about how certain plants can be harmful to unborn livestock and that scientists were pretty cool to keep this stuff in bottles!

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 11:22, 2007-07-30

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:
There was a cyclops sheep

Ummmm.... cyclopic sheep! Aaaaaaahhhhhh! {Homer drool on}

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat, I think word of our animal testing program may have gotten out. I think we should initiate "Plan Delta" immediately.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Would that be the "Plan Delta" filed under "R" for river or the "Plan Delta" filed under "C" for cooking of books?

I'm not sure it is wise to initiate the auto self-destruct sequence in public until the masses have been pacified into a stupor of bliss with sufficient tomaccolate gas, thus effecting our expeditious exit stage left...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Plan Delta filed under Z for Zebra which involves releasing striped animals in major urban areas to divert the public's attention from the tastey Tomacolate coated cycloptic sheep.