The Homosexual Thread

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

The Homosexual Thread

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hey Euphie, that is an interesting question.

I think the music discussion is worthy of it's own thread, so I started one over in LDS Discussions.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

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-- Edited by Euphrasie at 13:44, 2007-06-20

crazymom5 · Senior Member

Ray, why can I not cringe over song lyrics being played at a church function? I did not say I cringe when there is a person with SSA around. Our next door neighbor is SSA and we have no problem talking to him as neighbors. I have known a few people with SSA and i treated them no differently then I treat others without SSA. But song lyrics are a different matter. Over the years I have had my teenagers read a book called "Making the Music Decision" and it talks about how music and lyrics can repel the Spirit. So for me, the song in question repels the Spirit for me.

nuff said by me lest i start offending some. Bowing out of this thread and not even going to the new thread.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Ray, could you clarify / elaborate on what you mean by the cringing?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

First, I'd ask if she read the article...

Disgust over one particular form of sin sends the message to those who struggle with it, that they are more disgusting than any other sinner. Publicans and Lepers... How do you know how many youth at the dance are not headed down the path you claim is not visible? SSA people don't exactly come with a Scarlet S branded to their foreheads.

The lyrics of YMCA mean what you want them to mean. If you want to buy into the carnality of a song, go right ahead, but you might as well make the teletubbies gay, or SpongeBob, or all of Elton John's music... When you cringe at LDS youth enjoying a dance to music that was made by gay people, what exactly is it about the situation that disgusts you? Do you see the youth as hapless dupes destine for a life of homo-ambiguity?

The Great and Spacious building only affects those who heed the jeers and mocking...

This morning I drove to work listening to an evangelical popular music station. I found myself rejoicing in the music they were playing. They were praising God, and I found myself doing the same. The thought occurred to me that they thought I was not christian, and that I thought they were apostates. I could let that thought destroy something good, an expression of faith, or I could turn it around and take control of the situation, and recognize we have differences but we also share much in common.

We LDS are so afraid of sin, when we have the only answer to that problem. Sometimes I think we prefer to be disgusted and afraid of it, rather than face the fact that Christ has the power to overcome all of it. So afraid of the innuendo of sin, that we are often guilty of shameful hypocrisy--the type the Savior condemned with the strongest language.

I would like every "gay" person in the world to have a fair shake at learning the Gospel--without whispering, gossipy, head-shaking criticism. If I could, I would share with them how much Christ loves each of them, and that they are of divine origin. I would tell them that their condition is not unique.

I also would that every member of the church be given a fair shake to LIVE the Gospel, without growing up afraid of sin, but putting their faith in Christ. We all have our own weaknesses and challenges. They are ours and they will either destroy or save us, depending on how we choose to react to them.

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I'll say right off the bat that I haven't read the article, but I will go back and find the link or the posting and I plan to read it...

I'm a little confused by the angle of not wanting our children to grow up "afraid" of sin. I don't think I've ever heard it put quite this way. I've heard prayers of wanting to shake at the appearance of sin-
2 Nephi 4:31 "O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?"
I've heard of righteous persons abhorring sin-
Alma 13:12 "Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God."

But the comment "We LDS are so afraid of sin..." I just don't get where you're coming from. Shouldn't we *want* to avoid it? If we have an issue with SSA, shouldn't we try to replace those thoughts and emotions with something more aligned with God's will, instead of discussing and analyzing and considering and scrutinizing the ins and outs of it whenever we run into other "sympathizers"? Why don't we force it from our thoughts altogether? I don't see the advantage of choosing to dwell on it. I don't see it bringing us closer to the Spirit and mind of God. If anything, even if one does not "act out" some sin physically, but they dwell on it in their thoughts, that is time taken... stolen by Satan... that will never be regained.

Thinking outloud here...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Read the article... It is fascinating how he speaks about how Satan turns this seemingly good desire to avoid sin, and turns it into something loathesome... And he appears to be able to do it just simply and repeatedly pointing out that we all have differences and imperfections.

--Ray

PS> I'm not suggesting we all go willy-nilly sin-happy "Yay for Sin!", but I'm saying that we all need to be filled with tolerance and love for all people, regardless their challenges.

-- Edited by rayb at 16:49, 2007-06-20

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Discussion of one of the sensative topics from the article within this spoiler...

Spoiler: BTW, I also thought the section on early male arrousal to be both funny and uncomfortably true... I wish there was a place we could discuss that in greater detail, about how you tell your young boys what that means... or rather that it doesn't mean...

I think church leaders make a mistake if counselling youth about the problems of arousal and pure thoughts, and assuming that there is a thought at all... they may very well be putting thoughts into their heads...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 17:11, 2007-06-20

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

crazymom5 wrote:
you must be too young to remember The Village People, they came from the San Francisco gay community. I remember when the song hit the airwaves and felt very uncomfortable with the lyrics back then, let alone now.

I was in college, so I wasn't too young... I went to college in the Bay Area and was at SJSU when the song came out, it was a favorite at all kinds of dances... I remember disco dancing and just having a great time! This is the first time I have ever known anyone to insist that this song had a hidden agenda...

You know, it's getting so I can't enjoy anything I used to. Last week someone told me "exactly" why it was naive because I like CSN&Y, Helen Reddy, Frank Sinatra, and Enya music... Man... I don't WANT to know this stuff...!!! Honest, I just want to be my stupid naive self and enjoy life. If someone plants a message in a song and I DON'T get it, does that mean I NEED to be enlightened?

Next, someone will be telling me that there is NO Santa Claus... weirdface

arbilad · Head Chef

Polly, there ain't even an easter bunny.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

WHAT?????

You guys are KILLING me!

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

He's just messing with you Polly. What he meant is that there isn't *A* easter bunny. It's a whole family...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Thanks Euph... I'll be able to sleep tonight now... I think?!?!?!?!

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Gays Dont Want Marriage After All

Thoughts, impressions?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I guess Canadian Gays aren't into marriage. Interesting opinion piece. The numbers are interesting.

arbilad · Head Chef

It jives with what I've heard before. Also, even when "married" gays typically don't tend to be monogamous

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

The church has published a new guide for those struggling with same gender attraction. You can read it here.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, what do you think about it?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm sorry but this sentence is just... well... awkward...

"Someone wisely said that if we plant a garden with good seed, there will not be so much need of the hoe."

"Seed" should be "seeds" and I'd rephrase the second part of the sentence to read "one need not hoe it much."

I do like the pamphlet though the tone is... well... I dunno kinda stark and plastic. The language is somewhat... I dunno... cardboard comes to mind.

It is interesting (and an improvement, imo) it doesn't promise "a cure". This is definitely a change from past advice that's been given out, but I wonder if church leaders are being told of this change. It states outright that having tendencies is not a sin. And I think the comparison of the expectations placed upon hetero and homo are particularly well done.

I also think the advice given on page 8-10 is the real meat of the message, which is really strong and good. It is good general advice for most people, btw. Though the discussion of emotional attachment is... um... a bit psychobabblish... and I really wish that there was a scripture thrown in there to balance it.

Really like the discussion of forgiveness, and not assigning blame.

I do wonder if men with heterosexual compulsions are as readily shipped off to therapy as this pamphelet seems to encourage in SSA.

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 19:06, 2007-07-27

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
I do wonder if men with heterosexual compulsions are as readily shipped off to therapy as this pamphelet seems to encourage in SSA.

Yep. Even more so. Sister Roper will start seeing clients with LDS Family Services later this fall. She'll be counseling women and couples. The director of counseling services told her, however, that the majority of their clients are men, referred to them by Bishops because of pornography addiction.

eta: I agree with the assessment of the plastic tone and cardboard language. I guess it's to be expected, however. This amounts to an official position statement by the church, and so it has to be packaged in the least offensive and most PC terms possible, I suppose.

-- Edited by Roper at 22:33, 2007-07-27

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Interesting.

Fregramis · Senior Member

As part of the gospel plan, we are supposed to eventually become "new creatures" by undergoing a "mighty change". I have never seen a category of individuals so accomoadated for an exception as the SSA crowd. I'm talking about the tendencies, not the actions. They keep stressing that the tendency is not bad just the actions of homosexual immorality. Can this be clarified for me? Does this just mean that the tendency is not bad enough to warrant Church discipline?

For example, I must overcome my carnal sensual and devilish nature by accessing the Atonement. Are there some tendencies (such as SSA) excluded from this CSD criteria? Or is it not possible for the Atonement to change such tendencies untill after the ressurection?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Have you read the pamphlet? It implies one must master one's thoughts.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"They keep stressing that the tendency is not bad just the actions of homosexual immorality. Can this be clarified for me? Does this just mean that the tendency is not bad enough to warrant Church discipline?"

I think that is, in fact, what it means. Alma 12:14 "For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence."

Basically, I don't think priesthood leaders (on the whole) Church-wide are equipped to discern people's thoughts by the Spirit so they are left to take people at face value during interviews. "Are you morally clean?" "Why, yes I am." Alright, then, you are. So we have this system which basically leaves our thoughts to ourselves as far as *this life* is concerned.

At least that's what it seems like to me...

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

So... let me see if I understand this. Are you saying you believe that although SSA isn't bad enough to warrant church discipline, that someone who struggles with SSA tendencies is still sinful, even if he/she does his/her best to avoid dwelling on those thoughts? In other words, if someone with SSA avoids acting on those impulses, they are still morally unclean?

I don't think that's what you meant... but in the context of your posts, that last paragraph seemed to imply that someone with SSA who answers "yes" to "do you keep the law of chastity?" is somehow not being truthful?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I'm saying if he says he does keep the law of chastity, but he really doesn't (actually sleeps around with whatever sex), the bishop has no choice but to take him at his word.

Heterosexual people can have problems lusting over people they are not married to. The UPS man... their secretary... the babysitter... the organist (teehee)... These thoughts are all sinful, regardless if one is hetero or homo. SSA people do not get off free anymore than hetero people do. At least, I don't think so.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ok coco... I agree with that.

Fregramis wrote:

As part of the gospel plan, we are supposed to eventually become "new creatures" by undergoing a "mighty change". I have never seen a category of individuals so accomoadated for an exception as the SSA crowd. I'm talking about the tendencies, not the actions. They keep stressing that the tendency is not bad just the actions of homosexual immorality. Can this be clarified for me? Does this just mean that the tendency is not bad enough to warrant Church discipline?

For example, I must overcome my carnal sensual and devilish nature by accessing the Atonement. Are there some tendencies (such as SSA) excluded from this CSD criteria? Or is it not possible for the Atonement to change such tendencies untill after the ressurection?

I guess this post is what I am having problems with. I don't understand how the tendency toward SSA that is not acted upon is any different, worthiness wise, than the tendency toward heterosexual lust that is not acted upon. Fregramis, care to clarify your thoughts?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Good question, so it is worse if my husband has an affair with a woman or a man?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I don't think one is necessarily worse than the other. Either way, he will break his covenants. Does it really matter with which gender?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I dunno, does it?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

In my opinion, no.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So you don't believe there should be a distinction between biological urges--one's biology--and the choices one makes?

How do your forgive yourself of anything if there's not an acceptance of one's fallen condition, to at least some degree?

Personally, the strength of the pamphlet is that it does not dismiss biology, but attempts to encourage those with such urges to look past them. It's easy to trivialize problems we don't face, but if you grew up from what appears to be one's birth, with urges that were completely incompatible with the most central parts of the Plan of Salvation, while the world around you tells you another story, wouldn't you want someone to tell you you're okay, but that God expects more?

Honestly, at this point in my life, I will coddle any person who doesn't refuse to listen to my testimony in God. If this works, great. If telling them to just suck it up or you're going to hell, works, then use that approach. I hope it works with you. But with what judgement you judge, so shall you be judged... I'd much rather be coddled and loved into the fold than driven there like a dumb ass.

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

As far as the "so shall ye be judged" comment, let's not trick ourselves into thinking if we are unconditionally tolerant, for example, this will come back to us... God's is a perfect judgment. I've always wondered about that comment anyway, "with what measure ye mete, it will be measured to you again..." and stuff like it. What does that mean? What goes around comes around? Does that mean in THIS life? Cuz I'm not holding my breath for justice in this life. Or mercy, for that matter. Does it mean if we're nice to people they'll be nice to us? Again, a nice thought, but not always realized... I guess it's more like the golden rule, like a way of life...? But no, it has to be more than that, because Christ Himself taught it. Here's the actual scripture from the Mark record - 4:24 "And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given." That doesn't seem to have much at all to do with the golden rule to me... seems like a whole 'nother topic... Anyway, tangent...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

And like I said, you can feel free to condemn everyone to hell, if you think that'll motivate you and those around you to go for the celestial gusto... I'm just saying the older I get the less willing I feel to be the judge of anyone--including (perhaps sadly) myself.

The original objection was about thoughts not actions...

I just don't know enough of everyone's circumstance to know why some folk grow up feeling and thinking, I don't know to what degree our brain's wiring has upon our ability to think clearly, to be a judge of any of that stuff... I don't know to what degree evil spirits have power over men, and what degree it is one's mind's chemistry, and to what degree it is my own errant spirit or fallen nature or for that matter bad dreams--or genuine deceptions, or ignorance...

That's all a great mystery to me. I liked how the pamphlet tended to encourage the reader to bypass delving deep into your psyche--in particular discouraging people from blaming parents, abuse, upbringing, biology though they may all be legitimate sources for the temptations-- and all these unsolved issues in order to act in a decent, moral and upright way.

Did Christ sin for being tempted?

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I would dare say that most males have a strong biological urge to procreate with any number of females that appear attractive. But the Lord's standard is no sexual relations except with legal and lawful spouse. The standard doesn't change to account for differences in biological urges.

We are counseled to bridle our passions. We are told that our thoughts, words, and actions will condemn us. Does it really matter if the lust is for one gender over another? Either way, it's lust, and it's forbidden.

-- Edited by Roper at 13:21, 2007-07-31

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So you don't think you'd feel worse about yourself, being an active member of the LDS church, if your natural urges were to lust after your fellow priesthood members? You don't think that would affect the way you interract physically with them, or the barriers and personal baggage you'd have to carry?

And what about dating, and eternal families? You're physically viable, filled with the same amount of lusts as the next teenager or what not, but completely unable to progress in the most fundamental duty men and women have in life?

I'm not saying they aren't expected to bridle their passions like the next guy, but when one's passions are so fundamentally misdirected how do you progress at all?

Most men can at least fake it for a while, get married, hone their lusts, direct it little by little toward their one true love... etc, etc, etc...

I'm not saying it's better... I'm saying it's a challenge.

Heck, Maybe those LDS who have SSA are more blessed for this weakness than other men who just kinda follow their instincts and with the love and prayers of their wives and their many tears eventually get a clue and decide to repent and change their lives.

But then who prays for them and cries for them?

SSAs are forced to face their lusts upfront or they ditch the church. Great divider, right?

I agree the standards are high and true and great and good. Sometimes, though I think there's someone hiding in the mists of darkness clubbing certain folk who are trying hard to cling to the iron rod....

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:

So you don't think you'd feel worse about yourself, being an active member of the LDS church, if your natural urges were to lust after your fellow priesthood members? You don't think that would affect the way you interract physically with them, or the barriers and personal baggage you'd have to carry?

Perhaps... but Ray, that is also kind of a strawman approach too. What about all the men and women in the church who have to fight the natural urge to lust after members of their ward of the opposite gender they may be attracted to? Right, wrong, or indifferent in that comparison, the only difference I see is that of which gender the individual has conditioned themself to be attracted to.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

...so you're saying the church is wasting paper...

--Ray

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

You know, the thought occurs to me that Pres. Faust is just wasting his breath on many saints, in his latest message to hometeachers, about showing empathy and kindness to single members of the church... After all, they just have to bridle their passions.... no biggie, right? What's their problem feeling sometimes isolated from the main body of Christ? They must simply be imagining it!? Faust must be out of touch...

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Whatever our weakness may be, Christ will either heal us or give us the strength to endure in faith. Practicing homosexuals have been healed by Christ. Advocates for the homosexual agenda have been given new eyes by Christ. SSA is not beyond Christ's power to heal.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

No one ever claimed otherwise...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I didn't say that, did anyone else?

Clearly, with the contemporary societal emphasis on and obsession with SSA, it is a topic that the Church and the leaders have felt needs to give some "individualized" attention to, as the adversary uses a little more specialized set of stumbling blocks for those who have become ensared in this trap.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
But then who prays for them and cries for them?

I do. And I imagine you do too.

For some reason, some people seem to have this notion that SSA and homosexual behavior is in a seperate and more vile category of uncleanness.

For some reason, some people seem to have this notion that allowances should be made because it's an unchangeable biological fact.

I don't think either is an accurate position. But I'm still not sure of my own position on the issue, and I don't know if I ever will have a definitive one. I try to be a true friend to those I love who live with it. And I pray for them. And I don't know really what else to do.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Ray said dumbass.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

ray- If I get your point, you're basically saying since people struggling SSA don't even have a correct orientation for basic reproduction, they have a much harder time living the Gospel as a whole? That men with porn problems or multi-partner sex problems, etc. at least don't have THAT to deal with, and probably have an easier time overcoming...? At least they can outwardly fake it within a temple marriage while they privately work on being more moral...?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I don't see why my point should be that difficult to understand.

Take my point of view from the perspective of someone living within and raised in the church. What is the basic message about the church regarding family and marriage? Is it not the goal that is drilled into you since you were a baby and could sing "Families can be together forever"?

Heck, Take away the same gender for a moment and focus on Singles if you think I'm being too lenient to same gender folks. Do you think that Singles have "unique" challenges remaining active and participant in the church? Why does the church put so much emphasis on reaching out to single members of the church?

Should they not at least spend SOME effort on reaching out to single SSAs? Especially if they were raised in the church and have a testimony, but are currently feeling as though they have no hope?

I think this is a real problem, especially for men who have SSA, because there is a great deal of pressure in the church to get married, as it is... to take the initiative and to be a priesthood leader, married and respectable--not a menace to society (as BY would say).

Am I just smoking dope here, thinking that these challenges are uniquely difficult in the current culture of the church?

And you know what, I think men in the church can hide their lusts after multiple women quite easily, and even justify it, considering the whole polygamy debacle... But heck, maybe I'm just predisposed to think this way... maybe I was just born this way... whatever the case, the church is true, Christ's at the head trying his best to help his flock and his children navigate a sewer of worldly notions... so you get through those mists of darkness your way, and I'll try to get through mine...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Just a little restate for clarification, dude.

Just because uber-horny men can more easily hide their lustings, doens't mean they are closer to the Spirit or "better" people... I think any single person, for whatever reason they are single, has certain challenges living in the sociatal aspects of the Church. I was a single mom for a while in this Church. I got to deal with the over-eager hometeacher that wanted to help me with EVERYTHING, and the dirty looks from his wife every week.

What's the point here? I think I've just lost the point. Who said we shouldn't reach out to single people with or without SSA issues? Everyone believes that. I don't know how unique these challenges are to the Church's current culture. I haven't heard the "menace to society" comment for what - 150 years?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I wasn't married til age 26. I heard it pretty much what felt like once a month at least... believe me it's a live and well... But then there's the rub... we all perceive our challenges as worst... and you know what? I've no right to tell anyone that they're not... for that person, who knows!?

--Ray