No man knows the day nor the hour....

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

No man knows the day nor the hour....

Pt314 · Senior Member

What if he comes in 2035?

I have thought about it, and I came up with a mathematical distribution expressing the probability between any two years (integration).

Anyway I think I had it a 50% chance between 2020 and 2050, 90% chance between 2010 and 2100.

-- Edited by Pt314 at 09:50, 2007-03-08

arbilad · Head Chef

I wish I remembered the name of the celebration, but the jews have a feast that starts right at the new (or full, I forget) moon. Since back then they couldn't predict the phases of the moon with exactness, they never knew the precise hour when the moon would be in the right phase to start the feast.
I think it's the same thing in this situation; we don't know the exact hour; Pres. Hinckly is not going to get up in conference and announce that Christ is returning Tuesday the 3rd at 3:17pm MDT. But we can see major signs being fulfilled and know that it can't be that far off.
I'm a bit more optimistic than you, Mahonri. I think that the second coming won't be later than 2020. It could be much quicker.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Maybe we can start a pool, everyone throws in $20 and picks a date. Whoever is closest wins the pot. I would be happy to hold the money until then!

arbilad · Head Chef

How would that look when standing in fron of the Savior?
"Honest, I meant to hold the money, but I needed it to buy tomacalatte."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

No, he wouldn't be buying Tomacolatte brand tomacolate... he would be using it to help fund further R&D into how to market that sweet elixor.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

arbilad wrote:

How would that look when standing in fron of the Savior?
"Honest, I meant to hold the money, but I needed it to buy tomacalatte."

D&C 64:23 As long as I do that with the pool money I should be fine, right?

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I am guess December 2012!

I am with arbilad, I think before 2020, but, and this is just my speculation, but I am thinking based on Pres. Hinckleys' talks on the seven good and seven bad years, etc., that it is not far off. I am so sick of the evil and garbage in this world that I would love Him to come soon, even with all the bad things that will precede His coming.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I don't think it'll happen for another couple hundred years... certainly not in my lifetime...

Kevin · Veteran Member

Has anyone researched a possible "must be by" date? Considering the age of the earth, etc.?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Kevin wrote:

Has anyone researched a possible "must be by" date? Considering the age of the earth, etc.?

Just watch President Tom of Iran. If he starts something I'm sure Global Armageddon will speed things along!

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

You guys make me

*Checks calendar for months and years to mark [Tuesday the 3rd at 3:17pm MDT]...just in case*

My guess is 2030 plus or minus about 10 years. In February/March...right after New Year's resolutions fade.

-- Edited by Euphrasie at 17:08, 2007-03-08

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I want to be dead... safely dead... (and preferably all my family and descendants as well) before that happens.

I'm not sure the ticket I'm holding allows me to ride the "Millenial Ushering In" attraction, but if it does, I hope I'm ready to stand in line.

Fregramis · Senior Member

Doesn't D&C 77 verses 6 and 10 pretty much indicate that the earths history (at least the history that counts) are six thousand year periods and the seventh will be the millienium? That number is probably off, but I can't imagine by more than a 100 year span. The Church was restored in 1830 and the earth has had 177 years to prepare for the Bridegroom. I think they only got 120 years while the Ark was being built by Noah!

Anyway, I think the Second Coming will occur in the next 40 years. When the fruit is rotting on the vine, you know it won't be long before it drops. In the meantime, I can't wait to graduate from college and move into a home where my kids can have a backyard and their own bedrooms!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I've asked it before (maybe indirectly), but what value is it to us to speculate about when the Second Coming will occur? I know some of you are just talking tongue in cheek, but on this sort of topic, I can never be too sure with everything.

Hasn't The Lord been pretty clear that He wants each of us to be ready for when our individual time is up? I don't imagine He puts a lot of stock in our "watching the clock" as it were. Does "watching the clock" inspire hope or fear? The answer to that should tell you where the source of the fascination is coming from. The signs and prophecies are given to give us incentive to prepare, to be ready, and as confirmation that our faith in so doing is not in vain.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

It seems some LDS are wishing the 2nd Coming would occur sooner than later, and pray that the Lord will expedite it. They seem to believe the longer we have to wait, the more good people will fall into forbidden paths and become lost. Others feel that if the 2nd Coming and the events leding up to it come on sooner than later, there are a lot of people who will not have time to get their act together, catch the vision, get it, or whatever. My thinking is the longer we can put things off, the more opportunity we have to get prepared. Our kids and grand kids will be older and will be better able to cope.

arbilad · Head Chef

We're told in the scriptures to watch and prepare for His coming. It doesn't seem a small thing to me. And I think you're projecting, Cat. I don't feel fear knowing that He's coming. On the contrary, I'm very happy. I'm looking forward to seeing Him again, and striving to become such a person that I'll know Him because I'll be like Him.
Cat, if your wife went somewhere for a week and left you to care for the kids alone, would you not be happy to see her come back? It's the same exact reason why we look forward to the coming of Christ. Things are tough without Him, and they'll be much better when He gets here. Too often people talk of the Second Coming as if it's a bad thing - it's a wonderful thing, and something that we can be very happy about. Will things get tough before he gets here? Absolutely. But if you'll notice, nobody in this thread has said, "I really look forward to the world going to hell in a handbasket." We look forward to the coming of Christ, not the coming of troubles.
How can it be negative in the slightest for us to be graced with His presence?
So we do as commanded, we watch for the signs that He has given us to let us know of His coming, we prepare as He has told us, and we let Him handle the rest.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, for discussion's sake alone, I'll go along with the idea that I'm projecting in exchange for considering the concept the Apostle Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 8.

Is it possible then, for discussion's sake alone, that those Saints who put an inordinate amount of attention into a speculative aspect of a gospel principle could inadvertantly influence weaker brothers and sisters the wrong way in understanding what it means to watch and prepare?

arbilad · Head Chef

You're asking a loaded question. One of the definitions of "inordinate" is:
not within proper or reasonable limits; immoderate; excessive: He drank an inordinate amount of wine.

So, the question you're asking is, "Does excessively focusing on one speculative aspect of a gospel principle affect weaker saints for the worse?" The answer would have to be yes, of course. If you take any principle to excess, it's bad. You can home teach too much. You can emphasize chastity so much that your child doesn't even have sex within marriage. You can pay too much of a fast offering (to the point where your children are starving and they reposess your car).

So the question is, when does attention to a gospel principle become inordinate? That is a tough one to call. For one thing, it can frequently occur that someone who doesn't have a testimony of a principle yet can think something to be inordinate. For instance, if Brother Jones pays a fast offering, but his kids go around in old shoes because he can't afford to buy new ones yet, then some who don't know that he's paying the fast offering so that things will get better for him financially would think it to be inordinate. The flip side occurs also, of course. If a brother who has his own underground fuel tank because he wants to be prepared might judge unrighteously his bretheren who don't have that yet.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, referencing back to the kind of parallel discussion Shiz started under the LDS topics, what I was trying to get across was that we should be careful in how we approach the looking for the signs (and any associated excitement) so that we don't end up sending the wrong message to those who may not be as strongly rooted in their testimony or understanding of the gospel or who may not have as strong of faith.

I'm not one who can establish what is considered inordinate or excessive, but I would suggest that it may correspond to the amount of attention given the topic by the Apostles and First Presidency in General Conference.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, that's a hard filter to apply, because people listen to talks through the filter of their prejudices. For instance, I have seen a great deal lately about preparing for hard times ahead, get your house in order, the time for repentance is now, etc.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

For instance, I have seen a great deal lately about preparing for hard times ahead, get your house in order, the time for repentance is now, etc.
Exactly. Not so much in the way of a, b, and c have occured so d is upon us and e, f, and g will be happening at time n, thus there is x amount of time left.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I find it interesting that the Prophet has continually exhorted us to "go on with our lives", despite hysteria in the media and such from the last decade or so about the end of the world. People put their lives on hold when they think some impending doom is just about to hit ya... They don't have children, they tend to draw in among themselves and view the world with dark and foreboding fear... Pres. Hinckley doesn't come across that way. He seems ever the optimist and an example of hope.

I admit I'd like to be (pleasantly) surprised by the Lord's coming. I'd like to be "caught" doing good on that day... not because I felt God was gonna come, but because it is a part of my nature to do good, and his coming is just icing on the cake.

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

With my luck I'll get caught playing Lego Star Wars II on the XBox. Just how I want to remember that day!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hahahaha!!! Ain't that the truth... For me it'll be Pokemon...

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm storing rice and water.... but I'm still pruning my peach tree and planting tomatoes.

I'm wondering if I'm working in vain... all the bees have disappeared. Will there be any fruit crops or flowers left without bees?

-- Edited by Mahonri at 01:33, 2007-03-13

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Mahonri, are you storing white rice or far more nutritious brown rice? We've had brown rice go rancid and now store it in a chest freezer.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Mahonri wrote:

I'm storing rice and water.... but I'm still pruning my peach tree and planting tomatoes.

I'm wondering if I'm working in vain... all the bees have disappeared. Will there be any fruit crops or flowers left without bees?

-- Edited by Mahonri at 01:33, 2007-03-13

Other insects and birds can also help in the polination process. Honey bees in the U.S. have suffered severely from mites the last few years. Farmers rent honey bees for polination and have seen the costs rise dramatically because of lower populations of bees.

arbilad · Head Chef

I'm thinking of getting my own bees, although I'm not sure the neighbors would be wild about that. Although, maybe they wouldn't mind so much. It's not like bees are unknown in the area where I live. Just the other day I had to shoo one out of the minivan where I had just put my baby son. There are plenty of plants on the farms nearby. And there's an outfit in California that only charges $20 for a queen and some workers. I'm thinking of making it a project and building a beehive with my son.
Of course, this has an aspect totally apart from preparation for possible future disasters. First, I want my garden plants well polinated. Second, I love honey, but it's too expensive to buy a lot of from the store.

glumirk · Senior Member

Wasn't it President Kimball who said something like "I'm going to live as if He were coming today, but I will still plant cherry trees."

The unwise virgins thought they had all the time in the world to fill their lamps, but the wise ones were filling their "drop by drop" as I believe Elder Packer said. (I have these quotes, they are just at my apartment) I figure as long as I am trying to fill my lamp drop by drop, reading my scriptures a little better, praying a little better, being physically prepared a little better, being obedient a little better, and just keep working on things to improve here a little and there a little, that when He comes, at least I've been working to be prepared. I don't know that anyone will be fully 100% prepared, but the Lord looks on the heart and as long as we have been earnestly trying to obey, I'm sure we'll be ok. We don't know the exact day because the Lord wants to judge us on how we live daily. It's just like when your house is messy and you scramble to clean it up when you find out company is coming. The Lord doesn't want that, he wants us to be ready all the time so that it's ok for him to just drop in.

arbilad · Head Chef

I think that may have been Brigham Young with the cherry trees quote, but I'm not sure. It is a very sound principle.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Martin Luther (as in the protestant reformer and not the civil rights activist who got a holiday):

"Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree."

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

How do you expect to keep the bees alive? There's a certain type of mite that is killing huge populations of bees all around the world.

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Ray, is there an echo in here?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

No.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

No...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

no... ... ...

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

the planting cherry trees quote: Wilford Woodruff. It was in last years RS/Priesthood manual.

arbilad · Head Chef

For those of you who don't think that the second coming is going to be within your lifetime, what form do you think the prophesied sign will take? For instance, when the scriptures speak of signs in the heavens, what do you think those signs will be? What form will confusion of the elements take? What will the love of men waxing cold be like?
Or, if you think this is simply a loaded question designed to make you think that these signs are going on right now, what do you see happening as the second coming gets nearer that is not happening now or has not happened in any period in history?

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

You can count me as one of those, so I will take a stab at responding.

I don't know that I can guess as to signs in the heavens or confusion of the elements. I don't think that weather, astronomy, etc. have changed significantly in the recent past. I think that applies to human nature as well--people's hearts have had some level of waxing cold in many eras of history, and perhaps all of them. The world has usually been a rather cold and cruel place, and natural disasters have, to my knowledge, always been a fact of mortal history.

So how do I think things will be different? Hard to say. Perhaps they won't. Perhaps the point is that people in all times--whether it be 100 AD or 999 AD or 1830 AD or 2007 AD--are watching for the promise of the Lord's coming.

Pt314 · Senior Member

arbilad wrote:

For those of you who don't think that the second coming is going to be within your lifetime, what form do you think the prophesied sign will take? For instance, when the scriptures speak of signs in the heavens, what do you think those signs will be? What form will confusion of the elements take? What will the love of men waxing cold be like?
Or, if you think this is simply a loaded question designed to make you think that these signs are going on right now, what do you see happening as the second coming gets nearer that is not happening now or has not happened in any period in history?

I think peoples hearts are quite hardened already, athough it will probably get worse.

As to signs in the heavens, maybe we will see Betelguese supernova or something. That would be very noticeable.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm looking for a large asteroid or comet with a bead on earth. How else will the earth reel too and fro?

Before the Savior comes, we will loose 1/3 of it's inhabitants... and after that another 1/3. That's over 4 billion that will be moved to the spirit world with the need to be taught the gospel. Either here or there, we'll be busy preaching the gospel.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I was thinking a large asteroid would definitely make up for signs in the heaven. What would be interesting is if we see it coming, but are so screwed up and disorganized as a country that NASA and other space agencies can't do anything about it. Oh wait... I think that's a movie plot... :)

--Ray

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

we will loose 1/3 of it's inhabitants... and after that another 1/3

Reference, please?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

That may take a day or two... I got it from BRM's "Millenial Messiah"

Equality · Newbie

--edited for content--

-- Edited by arbilad at 10:16, 2007-03-20

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

This from a quick search for "third" on the lds.org scriptures--

Rev. 9: 15, 18
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
• • •
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

I don't recall the other or additional third...?? There's lots of "thirds" in the following passages as well--

Rev. 8: 7-12
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Third part is not necessarily = 1/3

And I appreciate a source that isn't "Millenial Messiah", since that isn't a Church-published book.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I always assumed a third part meant 1/3. ??? What else could it mean?

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 13:04, 2007-03-20

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

it is interesting how often 1/3 and 3's come up in the scriptures. We should do a seperate thread on this.

--Ray