Should we cry for you, Cactus Texas?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Should we cry for you, Cactus Texas?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Perhaps you've heard... illegals are now crossing in "two's" and "four's"... I guess it's because they've been reading the signs... No Trespassing.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Illegal immigration is a natural effect of a free and open society of laws and free markets. Unless you want to make a communist nation, demand people be branded with identification and screened, sprayed with pesticides and stamped with expiration dates, this will be an unfortunate byproduct of our success. Rather than shutting down more meatpacking plants we should be opening more by the border for really really cheap labor, and moving it away from areas where unions have clogged up the works--like in Michigan--where it's cold and too close to Canada (also known as Commie-Duh!)

--Ray

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Read the article in our local paper. As I mentioned before, Cactus is just north of here - about an hour's drive. I would guess the percentage of illegals before the raid was closer to the 75% figure than the figure given by the mayor of 15%. There is much talk of how empty the town became after the raid. I haven't heard much about how many replacement workers they have been able to hire in Cactus. It would be interesting to know.

A majority of the articles that have come out about the incident have been about how impacted the illegals and families of illegals have been due to the raid. Little is discussed about how, by choosing to come here illegally, the illegals have impacted their families. The blame instead is placed on the government and the enforcement of immigration laws. Who is truly the responsible for the situation? Those who broke the law.

-- Edited by TitusTodd at 09:36, 2007-02-13

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Now I get it. Adam and Eve were just illegal aliens... after they took the fruit... :)

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, what do you think would happen if they instituted a law that said that all stores must remain unlocked at all times, and that there should be no means implemented to catch shoplifters? That stores should just trust people to not take stuff without paying? Stores would be cleaned out within a few days.
Yet that is what is being done with our border policy. Anyone and everyone is getting in. What is the point of having a visa process if a terrorist can walk freely across the border from Mexico into the US? That backpack nukes exist is a fact. That it would be a trivial exercise for a terrorist to walk one across the border is a fact. That there are many terrorists who would want to do so is a fact.
Ah, but how would a terrorist get such a sophisticated weapon? It's easy enough. If you're an underpaid scientist in Russia, and a nice man comes to you with a dumptruck full of money that he'll give you if you only let him have a suitcase nuke. It's a fact that there are underpaid scientists in Russia, you might not have much willpower. It's a fact that terrorists are very well funded (you help fund them every time you go to the gas pump).
So, in this scenario, what's to stop them from bringing nukes across the border? Would your feelings towards open immigration change if you woke up tomorrow to news that major cities across the US had been hit by suitcase nukes, and they could be traced to people who crossed the border illegally? Granted, they probably wouldn't even destroy a few city blocks. But the psychological effect would be devastating.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:

Now I get it. Adam and Eve were just illegal aliens... after they took the fruit... :)

--Ray

Yeah, and there was one heckuva border patrol put in place after they got deported!

Good one, Mahonri! The only thing missing was the rimshot and cymbol crash...

Along the same lines of what TT was saying, I have no problem with folks from other nations coming here to do work. But they need to do it legally and lawfully. What I found telling was how the thought patterning was so engrained in the people in this example, that even after 30 years in this country, 20 of which ostensibly as either a legal resident alien or a lawful citizen, the local business leader of the town appears to have more allegiance to those who break the law of the land who gave him the opportunity to amass the wealth he has now.

I wonder, what happened to all the Laotian and Vietnamese refugees who were staffing the plant years ago? Why did they all seem to move away when this plant apparently was a good thing for them to be able to put roots down in their new land?

arbilad · Head Chef

Poor Ray - he has to be wrong about illegal immigration and Harry Potter!

TitusTodd · Senior Member

As far as the Laotians and Vietnamese go that worked in Cactus at one time, I imagine they moved on to other meat processing plants - namely those closer to Amarillo. I don't know what may have prompted that move beyond perhaps better wages and/or more civilization.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

TitusTodd wrote:

Who is truly the responsible for the situation? Those who broke the law.

Who is truly responsible for the situation called the United States of America? A bunch of guys who broke a bunch of laws. I love those guys.

The perspective that drives the "get tough on immigration" mentality resonates harmoniously with the perspective that drives the failing "war on drugs" and that drove the failed "war on poverty." Everyone wants immediate relief from the symptoms. Nobody wants to invest the time and resources to understand the illness enough to discover a cure.

All I hear is "Well, they're breaking the law!" Did anyone stop to ask why? Does anyone even care why?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

More than 50% of the people who live within the boundaries of our stake are illegal aliens.

My wife wants to move. It was not that way when we moved here 20 years ago.... perhaps 5% back then.

Some of my kids are the only white kids in their elementary school classes.

Its like I live in northern Mexico and I'm in Phoenix.

We had a kid return from his mission in Mexico in December and when he spoke at one of our latino wards the mebers laughed at his 'southern' accent. Most of the illegals here are from northern mexico... although we have them here from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.

If immigration came in and did a sweep, the southern portion of our stake would become a ghost town.

arbilad · Head Chef

Roper wrote:

TitusTodd wrote:

Who is truly the responsible for the situation? Those who broke the law.

Who is truly responsible for the situation called the United States of America? A bunch of guys who broke a bunch of laws. I love those guys.

The perspective that drives the "get tough on immigration" mentality resonates harmoniously with the perspective that drives the failing "war on drugs" and that drove the failed "war on poverty." Everyone wants immediate relief from the symptoms. Nobody wants to invest the time and resources to understand the illness enough to discover a cure.

All I hear is "Well, they're breaking the law!" Did anyone stop to ask why? Does anyone even care why?

That's disingenuous Roper; if you'd care to look at our previous threads on the subject, we have discussed ad nauseum the reasons why and what we could do to solve the problem. But the fact remains that it is a problem. It's basically a silent (and not really bloodless, since illegals are many times more likely to commit violent crime) conquest of our southern states. We have no security as a nation. Anything that terrorists want to do, they could do through our southern (or even northern) border. I feel for these people that they're poor. I really do. But they're also bringing their problems with them, and turning the areas they overwhelm into the same thing as the Mexico they escaped from. They're not solving their problems. They're creating major ones for us. Where's the upside for anyone?

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Who is truly responsible for the situation called the United States of America? A bunch of guys who broke a bunch of laws. I love those guys.

I'm trying to figure out which "thugs" you are referring to. The ones who came here largely for religious freedom or the ones that started the American Revolution to free themselves from an oppressive government. None of those people came here illegally.

Nobody wants to invest the time and resources to understand the illness enough to discover a cure.

Do we really not understand the illness? Come one, we know why illegals come here. It is because their countries are not doing enough for them and rather than cure their countries they come to ours. What do you thing we should invest our time and resources on? What do we not understand?

All I hear is "Well, they're breaking the law!" Did anyone stop to ask why? Does anyone even care why?

Again, we know why they break the law. They know they are breaking the law when they come here. They know the risks and shouldn't be surprised if they get caught and suffer the consequences. Nothing I stated should imply I don't care about their situation. The solution is not turning a blind eye to their existence and letting them come in as they will. There are lots of consequences to their coming here that we have discussed previously that cannot be ignored.

Coming to this country illegally is not solving their problems, just creating more. The solution is to keep them home contributing to change there. If we deem their contribution to our country is important, then we should have a guest worker program. How is allowing citizens of other countries to come here illegally encouraging the countries they come from to do better by their citizens? We are enabling the status quo in those countries to continue the corruption and not take steps to encourage economic progress.

Leaving things as they are is going to do little for the illegals and potential illegals. There will be no progress to cure the illness by ignoring it.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well said, TT. roper, I appreciate your perspective, but the I don't think the "guys" you are referring "broke" laws until after their attempts to work within the laws were ignored and that the body responsible for that law was proven to repeatedly be breaking it's own law. At that point, the law they were under was meaningless, and they had to break from that body of law to create a body of law that was relevant. That is an important distinction.

The start of the solution does not lay in continuing to turn a blind eye to the tidal wave of illegal immigration. It has to stop for the very reason you, Mahonri, and arbilad mentioned... they aren't solving their problems in their home lands by doing this, instead they are importing them to our country.

A general amnesty will not stop the attitudes prevelant either. The whole paradigm has to be changed to "We welcome you to come and be part of us when you come legally. You are not welcome to come colonize our nation, though." Put's a little different perspective on things, if you equate the illegal immigration to modern day subtle colonization efforts, doesn't it?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
roper, I appreciate your perspective, but the I don't think the "guys" you are referring "broke" laws until after their attempts to work within the laws were ignored and that the body responsible for that law was proven to repeatedly be breaking it's own law. At that point, the law they were under was meaningless, and they had to break from that body ...

Exactly what's happening in Mexico.

"Yeah, well, um, you should just stay there and fix the problem anyway." If it was that easy, then why do they risk their lives to come here?

Arbi, it's not disingenous to state that from my experience in participating in these discussions in the past, I don't recall anyone making a real effort to understand why so many immigrants risk so much to come here illegally. I hear the same old rants about breaking the law, and bringing crime in, and bankrupting healthcare, and printing stuff in Spanish, etc.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. Maybe it's a perspective we can't understand because we've never been through it. Somehow I'd like to get some undocumented immigrants to participate on this board, at least long enough to tell their story. They probably wouldn't stick around very long based on the prevailing attitudes here. BTW, I found the "Texas Poll" joke in the humor forum offensive. But, free speech and all that...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper wrote:
Exactly what's happening in Mexico.

... I don't recall anyone making a real effort to understand why so many immigrants risk so much to come here illegally. I hear the same old rants about breaking the law, and bringing crime in, and bankrupting healthcare, and printing stuff in Spanish, etc.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Exactly what's happening in Mexico." If it is their government is corrupt, well, yeah, that is a given for the most part. But, the people are not conducting a "revolution" to correct it. There are some political movements that have there platforms based on reform, but they are still not addressing the problem of the fact a decent percentage of their working class is ex-patriot and one of the largest imports is the sending of cash from these folks back home. Are there any reformers or opposition parties that have as a part of their platform to "Keep our people here to help our nation!"? I don't know, as I don't follow Mexican politics, but I would doubt there is.

Exactly, why do so many immigrants risk so much to come here illegally if it is not for the economic benefit? Are they seeking to flee a repressive government? If so, then they can apply for political asylum thing once they get here. If it is only for the economic perk, then let them come in the front door. How many illegal aliens are really immigrating? How many are simply here to make their fortune (even if it takes 5, 10, or 20 years) with the full intent of returning to their mother nation?

Sure, there are a variety of reasons they come, but the exceptions shouldn't trump the overriding reason for most.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

"Yeah, well, um, you should just stay there and fix the problem anyway." If it was that easy, then why do they risk their lives to come here?

Because they believe it is easier to come here and they are probably right.

I don't recall anyone making a real effort to understand why so many immigrants risk so much to come here illegally.
I don't think it has come up because, frankly, I think everyone believes the answer is obvious. I mentioned a reason in my prior post but you must have missed it. They come here for better opportunities to earn a living for their families here and in their home country.

I hear the same old rants about breaking the law, and bringing crime in, and bankrupting healthcare, and printing stuff in Spanish, etc.
Call them rants if you wish but truth is truth. Dismiss the problems of illegal immigration as rants all you wish but it doesn't make them disappear.

Somehow I'd like to get some undocumented immigrants to participate on this board, at least long enough to tell their story. They probably wouldn't stick around very long based on the prevailing attitudes here.
No one is being hostile against illegal immigrants. No one is saying all illegal immigrants are horrible criminals who take advantage of our country. Many are hardworking people just trying to do better for their families. For many the only illegal thing they have ever done or would think of doing is coming to this country illegally. I cannot blame them (and know I have stated such before) for doing what they are doing. However, those facts do not dismiss the problems of illegal immigration and that the continuance of the status quo does not solve problems within or without our border.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I agree that the status quo on immigration has problems--for America, for Mexico, and for many other Latin American countries. There needs to be a drastic improvement.

What I absolutely oppose, and what I believe is unconscionable for Americans to support, is any policy that denies food, shelter, medical care, or education to children of undocumented immigrants. Specifically, I oppose the following:

- Policies that fine or close down businesses that employ undocumented workers thereby denying opportunities for parents to support their families

- Policies that fine landlords who rent to undocumented workers, and that force eviction of undocumented workers and their families

- Policies that arrest, detain, or deport undocumented workers who are supporting families

- Policies that break up families by arresting, detaining, or deporting a parent, and policies that deport entire families, subjecting them to immediate and abject poverty upon arrival in their country of origin

- Policies that deny medical treatment to children of undocumented workers

- Policies that deny to children of undocumented workers free public health services such as immunizations, screenings, and clinics that are otherwise available to children

- Policies that deny to children of undocumented workers free educational programs and services, including NCLB, Title 1, Section 504, ADA, and Special Ed that are otherwise available to children

What happened in Cactus TX doesn't make me cry--it horrifies me to know that our government did that to families, and my fellow Americans applauded.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

So, basically you want to do away with immigration law. If we don't enforce immigration law then it will encourage the continued breaking of it and the flow of illegals will grow. Illegals have made a conscious decision to break the law in coming here. If we provide all those services that cost this country to illegals it will encourage the continued breaking of the law. You agree that the status quo is not good for anyone yet you want to do something that furthers it and makes it worse.

It is commendable you care as you do for illegals, namely those with families they are trying to support, and their plight. I believe many care about what they are going through. The solution for their problems is not continuing to encourage them to bring their families here illegally and then blame everyone but them when immigration law is enforced and their families are placed in a difficult situation. They placed themselves in that situation. They were probably given a false sense that they could avoid being caught because we have for too long not enforced immigration law.

-- Edited by TitusTodd at 07:55, 2007-02-16

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

roper, what you are suggesting is untenable.

Remove the incentive for breaking the law in the first place, and greater pressure will be created to go through legal means, such as a guest worker program.

But say and then act as if it is unconscionable to enforce laws and it does nothing but incent others to take the risk of crossing the border illegally, living low profile for a while in the country working under assumed identities (again, another illegal act), and then the whole while having access to the same benefits afforded citizens (which in many cases is illegal as it is fraudulant).

We can have compassion on the people, no doubt. But that doesn't mean the compassion equates to mitigating away the consequences of their breaking our nation's laws that come upon them and those who depend upon them when the law is enforced. Should the same considerations you are considering be given those individuals who are natural born citizens who commit crimes? Should the consequences of their crimes when the respective law is enforced be mitigated or otherwise lessened simply because they have children? Well would you want a convicted murderer to just be put on parole for a couple years because the individual has children and they will suffer if the parent is in prison? Sure, the comparison is over the top, but the application is the same.

arbilad · Head Chef

And, as I have pointed out in other threads in the past, the bretheren have said "Bloom where you're planted." They haven't said, "Bloom where you're planted, except if you live in Mexico; then come on up!"
Granted, they had reference to leading a gospel centered lifestyle. But again, as I have pointed out in other threads, you can do that economically as well. The church has a program of microfarm instruction. They teach classes in countries such as Mexico on how to raise enough food to provide for your family. The church also has the Perpetual Education Fund to help people in disadvantaged countries learn a trade that will support them and their family.
There are some excellent opportunities to help people bloom in place. We need more programs like that. We need to teach people to provide for themselves, not to be provided for (such as using US emergency rooms for "free" healthcare).
I truly believe that the US is stronger because we do take in so many legal immigrants. That gives us advantages that many European countries don't have. But let's do it legally; vet the immigrants, make sure they're not terrorists, make sure they're not bringing in some horrible communicable disease, etc.
There's a lot of good in Latin American cultures. Those could be some very good countries. I don't want the whole world to be like the US. Let's have people build up their own countries. In Mexico, if it takes a revolution, then so be it. That country is rich in natural resources, but its people are so poor.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I can honestly say that were I a mexican stuck in mexico with no options for my family, I'd do just as they do and hike across the border into a land of opportunity.

My feelings are that there are other solutions to this problem, other than deportation.

America doesn't throw people away. America is about inspiring the best in any man with a will to work. Why do we try so hard to instill our values in other countries, like Iraq and Afghanistan, yet somehow we think our country is ruined when other countries come into it, seeking the freedoms they cannot obtain in their own lands?

Perhaps if we cared more about the world, other than taking advantage of their huddled masses who can be actively oppressed into low wages (aka China) we would wake up and realize just how good it is to have these folks, and we'd do more to incorporate them into our land, rather than turning our noses up at them and accusing them of being criminals, while we all enjoy our free illegal downloads...

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

I don't know about you, Ray, but I don't download stuff illegally.
And yes, we need immigrants. But for our security, health, and happiness, we need to have a process that everyone goes through to come here. I think the US is richer for my wife having immigrated here. But she went through the proper process. Not wanting illegals is not the same as being isolationist. I think we need to expand our legal visa program. But people need to do it legally.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Why do we try so hard to instill our values in other countries, like Iraq and Afghanistan, yet somehow we think our country is ruined when other countries come into it, seeking the freedoms they cannot obtain in their own lands
We aren't colonizing Iraq or Afghanistan. We are providing them the catalyst to where they can rule themselves freely. The same can't be said about a nation that subtley encourages and facilitates its poor to go work across the border in it's neighbor country illegally and then send a lot of the money back home to shore up the economy rather than to actively work at solving the problems within its own borders that make so many so poor. Culturally, that is a kind of colonization (and a fairly parasitic colonization effort in many respects), as shown by the statistics of language spoken or used in schools, percentage of population make up in cities and towns, and cultural allegiance. Mexican flags being waved at marchs and other protests in the U.S. against immigration reform or enforcement of existing law is another example of this.

Seems to me, Ray, the ones who are most typical of illegal downloading are also going to be the ones who don't feel the need to have any sort of law the restricts behavior or establishes what is acceptable or unacceptable social behavior... after all, a law is only relative to the situation it was written in, so if your or my situation doesn't fit that, well it doesn't necessarily apply to you or me and hence should not be enforceable.

Did anyone notice that there was a group of Democratic lawmakers and immigration advocate groups, including Sen. Kennedy, that was all up in arms because the Citizenship and Immigration Services has proposed increasing fees relating to naturalization? They feel instead of doing that, it should be free to the poor illegal immigrants as a goodwill offering by the U.S. taxpayers, but if it is a "rich" immigrant from some western european nation, then it should be alright to fleece them for as much as they can get. This isn't the article I originally saw, but this is close. Anyway, the CIS is basically funded and operated by the fees it receives from the applicants. Want to be able to process more people, well, more revenue makes sense, so up the fees. But, no that is not acceptable... it needs to be paid for by providing money from the general budget via taxes, and if you're poor, you don't need to put up any money (or have to apply for financial aid to help cover the costs as is the case now).
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,248966,00.html?sPage=fnc.specialsections/immigration

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

How much money did your ancestors pay to the US government to come to the states? The problem is in the beauracracy. I find it ludicrous one can be so against government interference in people's lives and yet wants the government to come up with magical programs that will eliminate all illegals...

Hey and when they get done with the Mexicans, maybe they'll turn on you...

--Ray

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/bankofamerica.asp

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

So, basically you want to do away with immigration law.

That's not what I said, and certainly not what I meant to imply. I want immigration law, just radically different from what you want.

If we don't enforce immigration law then it will encourage the continued breaking of it and the flow of illegals will grow. Illegals have made a conscious decision to break the law in coming here. If we provide all those services that cost this country to illegals it will encourage the continued breaking of the law. You agree that the status quo is not good for anyone yet you want to do something that furthers it and makes it worse.

I do not want to further the status quo. I thought I made that clear in my last post--the status quo isn't working for America or her neighbors.

I want radical change in immigration law. I want immigration caps to be raised exponentially and new processes put in place that will enable many more immigrants to come here legally, so they don't have to break the law to get here.

With the exception of violent criminals, deportation is ethically wrong no matter how you try to redefine the discussion in law enforcement terms.

You know, I am really grateful to live in the United States where there is a system of checks and balances (at least for citizens)--where the dogmatic mantra of "you broke the law" from the executive and law enforcement perspective can be tempered with wise judgement from the judicial perspective. And then hopefully bad laws can be changed through the legislative process.

Unfortunately, I see a weakening of those checks and balances with the legislative branch tacking on mandatory sentencing provisions and the like, which is clearly a function of the judicial branch. And then we have activist judges trying to create essentially new law, which is clearly a function of the legislative branch. Meanwhile, neither is functioning to adequately provide checks and balances on the executive branch, which is working to create new legislation and interpret existing law in order to usurp our individual liberties at an alarming rate (in the name of "security" of course.) But all that's another topic.

-- Edited by Roper at 20:02, 2007-02-16

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Meanwhile the wealthy and privileged can come to America, work the system and with a wink and a pat on the back can gain citizenship.

We call the poor a burden, and pretend that because they're behind other borders we have no moral obligation to them elsewhere in the world--while we fatten ourselves on opportunities that none of us really "earned" on our own.

America's greatest asset is the idea that every man is born of worth, with certain inalienable rights--and that opportunities are more readily available in a land where freedoms are cherished, rather than crushed. That idea MUST be put to the world. What better way than to train emissaries of freedom both without and within our borders?

The pursuit of wealth is but a small factor of why they should be allowed to come here.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:
How much money did your ancestors pay to the US government to come to the states? The problem is in the beauracracy. I find it ludicrous one can be so against government interference in people's lives and yet wants the government to come up with magical programs that will eliminate all illegals...

Hey and when they get done with the Mexicans, maybe they'll turn on you...

--Ray

Compared to what illegal immigrants pay, probably a lot more, in coming to the U.S. There is a difference in paying the U.S. to be able to come here and the expense involved in getting to the U.S. My ancestors, as yours most likely, scrimped and saved to buy passage on sailing ships to cross the Atlantic, or were aided by loans from the Perpetual Immigration Fund. They left knowing full well they were leaving family behind quite possibly to never see them again. Some of them gave up a middle class lifestyle to become laborers or farmers here. They also did not become naturalized citizens right away. They had to go through whatever was in place at the time they immigrated (as Mormon pioneers or earlier). The costs talked about in the article I linked to are fees associated with the process for naturalization as citizens, not in coming to America. How many illegal immigrants from south of the border intend on becoming naturalized citizens? I don't know. We do know that offering general amnesty does not solve the problem of coming in the country improperly. As the article alluded to, many of those who were part of that amnesty ended up enabling others to do the same as they had done prior to their amnesty.

It is not just the Mexican immigrants or hispanic immigrants that are fleecing the system when our government does not enforce the law. In my area, there are many people from India. It is not unusual for a fair number of these people to outright lie about their financial situation in order to take advantage of government assistance that we as citizens would not have access to due to the level of scrutiny we would be put under. Now, I know that is a generality, but before I'm accused of stereotyping, the problem of Indian "immigration" is so well known that many of those who are of Indian heritage and are naturalized citizens or born citizens get mad at the group that fleeces the system. My wife works with several, as do I. There are two different mindsets. One is we are here to become part of America, the other we are here to make our fortune any way we can and then will go home in several years. The latter group will have a whole extended family living in a single family apartment to save money (okay, pretty frugal perhaps), but when it comes to reporting financials, it often is conveniently forgotten that there is only one rent payment made out of the pot of money everyone in the household earns, or the luxury vehicle they are driving actually is registered in someone else's name so that it doesn't show up as an asset, or the expectation is that if you're of Indian ancestry, you should be more than happy to assist them in perpetrating medicare fraud to get health care or prescriptions or welfare type payments because of the size of the household and the reported income of the head of household...

The problem is not WHERE the immigrants are coming from, the problem is that we as a nation turn a blind eye towards the abuse of the systems and the law involved with immigration, be it legal or illegal. We should welcome all who want to come, regardless of if it is temporary or permanent, I have no problem with that. But, we need to remember that anyone who comes here (or any other nation in western hemisphere) needs to live a certain level of righteousness, according to the Book of Mormon prophecies concerning the land. I think that implies being obedient to the law of the land, even if one does not worship The Lord. What do you think? Just laws are not there to simply be window dressing. They should be enforced. And immigration law is enforceable for the most part, if the government and people of our nation had enough stomach to actually do it.

In reference to the snopes link, I don't feel the banks are behaving ethically here. But, I don't feel banks as business entities are necessarily members of the moral high road society anyway. Banking corporations are not like the Bailey Savings and Loan... that is a myth. They are like Potter. Helping people is not the modus operandi for anything they do. Making money hand over foot is. I saw an article about the Bank of America thing sometime ago, but didn't want to discuss it.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I guess the question is whether or not banks or any of American businesses SHOULD be required to enforce immigration (in some states like Mexifornia I don't think it's legal to even ask) before giving a service.

Ironically our own IRS gives out independent tax ID numbers because not everyone has a Social Security Number... and they want a piece of whatever anyone is making, regardless of whether they're a citizen or not.

In answer to the original question posed, I think we should cry for Cactus Texas. You can cry for your reasons, I'll cry for other ones... :)

--Ray

PS> In regards to The Book of Mormon, doesn't it talk about the last days and the Gentiles, and when they are ripe with iniquity that the seed of Lehi shall go among them like young lions in a flock? Maybe this is it? The majority of Mexican citizens are of mixed Native descent.

I see it as a fulfillment of prophecy, and honestly, I don't want to get in the way of it. I just try to live as good a life as I can, and try my best to teach the Gospel to my neighbors and friends...

-- Edited by rayb at 00:16, 2007-02-18

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
It is not just the Mexican immigrants or hispanic immigrants that are fleecing the system ... It is not unusual for a fair number of these people to outright lie about their financial situation in order to take advantage of government assistance that we as citizens would not have access to due to the level of scrutiny we would be put under.

Well, since providing all that "government assistance" is not the proper role of government, citizens have no more constitutional right or entitlement to it than non-citizens. If it's available, then it's really charity that should be given to anyone who needs it.

The real fleecing is being done by the government to taxpayers, who don't get to decide if they want to provide that kind of charity. That's why it's wrong--not because some receive it and others don't.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I have no problem with more immigrants coming here legally if we have the jobs and infrastructure to support them. I really do not know what our capacity may be in that regard but we have to be careful not to exceed it. I also want them to truly be a part of this country by meeting the requirements of citizenship which include learning English. Loyalty should be to this country if they are going to be citizens of it and not be just a place to work.

...deportation is ethically wrong no matter how you try to redefine the discussion in law enforcement terms.

I just can't agree with that. When someone comes here illegally the law of the land is broken - what is ethical about that? The stated consequence of crossing into this country illegally is deportation.

arbilad · Head Chef

I've been thinking about this issue, and it struck me that one reason why certain businesses and our government are so eager to let illegals in is that it creates a peasant class that they will be able to control the same way that nobles of old did.
Think about it the similarities. Peasants were good for cheap, unskilled or partially skilled labor. Peasants had few to no rights (if you're an illegal immigrant working for someone under the table, try to appeal to the state's labor department if they cheat you), and peasants worked at the whim of the noble (if a noble wanted to throw a peasant off his land, what recourse did he have?).
How is the state of the illegal different? If you come in legally, you have legal protections, you can't earn less than the minimum wage, you don't live in fear that at the whim of the government they'll deport you back home. Your situation is much better.
From the standpoint of certain businesses and the government, illegals are much more convenient. They can be treated much worse than any legal employee could be treated. They can be paid much less. And if you really want to, they can be deported at will.
By allowing unchecked illegal immigration, the government is creating a new peasant class.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

TitusTodd: Ethics is primarily the study of what benefits or harms persons. It is a seperate consideration from social conventions, laws, or religious beliefs. Many societies (including ours) enforce laws that are unethical. Jim Crow laws in our own recent history serve as a good example. In a previous post, I articulated several government policies that directly or indirectly harm children. Such policies are unethical.

Arbilad: I agree that undocumented workers get exploited here primarily because they lack the protections of citizenship. That's another reason we need to move quickly and decisively on a plan that will provide them citizenship and make it easier for all immigrants to gain citizenship.

An observation: NAFTA had a lot of support--we were so eager to send our jobs across the border because one of the benefits would be cheaper consumer goods. Yet when cheap labor comes across the border in the other direction, we suddenly get interested in enforcing old bad laws, passing newer and worse ones, and building fences. I think that illuminates a societal selfishness that's 180 degrees out from the principles upon which the Kingdom of God should be established.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

By allowing unchecked illegal immigration, the government is creating a new peasant class.
Perceptive, arbilad, perceptive.

So, which side of the debate is really doing what needs to be done to counter and end this perpetuation of a shadow serfdom within what should be the shining example of a democratic republic?

Was slavery done away and the lot of those people who were in that bondage improved by continuing the practice of importing and selling of more slaves? Were the abolitionists being incompassionate to all the people who never got the chance to be captured and sold into slavery?

Were the peoples of Europe under the various nobles and rulers lives improved by keeping them illiterate and unable to own anything for centuries so that the nobility could maintain the social order? The people were really happy in their stations, and the rulers were kind to them all the time, right?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

One of the promises of NAFTA, whether directly spoken or not, was that it would help stem the flow of illegal immigrants into the nation by providing opportunity there.

we need to move quickly and decisively on a plan that will provide them citizenship and make it easier for all immigrants to gain citizenship.
And the first step is to make it clear that in order to make the cut for getting on the citizenship fasttrack is that all immigrants need to come here legally in the first place.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 11:07, 2007-02-19

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, perhaps I didn't make myself clear, but I think that creating a peasant class is bad.
Indentured servitude had a purpose, and even though it was sometime harsh, at least they had many rights. Maybe we could do something similar instead of a guest worker program? A company could sponsor foreigners and agree to be responsible for them while they're here. In return, the immigrant could promise to work for the company for 5 years at a greatly reduced rate. At the end of that 5 years, they qualify for citizenship. I think it would work great.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

No, arbilad, it was me who didn't make myself clear... I agree with you, just had never looked at it that way. I don't know if a modern version of "indentured servitude" would work. Culturally, it is so foreign to our way of thinking and sensibilities. Of course, we already have the concept of sponsership in place with immigration. But, I could see groups like the ACLU and the like challenging it all as unconscionable, unconstitutional, and any other number of unsavory descriptors we could come up with. Guest worker kind of bridges this.

I was trying to point out that similar examples of where whole groups of people were perpetually kept in a generational level of serfdom or sub-lower class was not changed by continuing the status quo that created the situation. My contention is that by enforcing immigration law, it is actually helping that group of people (the illegal immigrants) long term to come free of being serfs with little or no legal protection. On the other hand, being lenient in not enforcing perpetuates the system that enslaves the group.

Who ended up better off in the end, the Israelites who followed Moses in a drastic change to their lifestyle, or those who decided leaving the comfort zone of Egypt was too harsh?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It's only shadow serfdom if you take away their wealth as they get it, and force them to remain in servitude. Their children are born citizens, they can enter the education system, and reach beyond what they might ever obtain in any other place.

So Are college students and Highschool workers who scrimp by on minimum wage also in serfdom?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 14:32, 2007-02-19

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

It's only shadow serfdom if you take away their wealth as they get it, and force them to remain in servitude. Their children are born citizens, they can enter the education system, and reach beyond what they might ever obtain in any other place.

So Are college students and Highschool workers who scrimp by on minimum wage also in serfdom?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 14:32, 2007-02-19

Actually, Ray, even though the kids are physically located here, they are not encouraged to learn English. In many places they can complete most or all of their education without having learned good English skills, partly because they live in a community where everyone speaks Spanish. Jason pointed out examples he has seen first hand of people whose opportunities were limited because they never learned English well. So, the serfdom continues into the coming generations.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

arbilad wrote:
Actually, Ray, even though the kids are physically located here, they are not encouraged to learn English. In many places they can complete most or all of their education without having learned good English skills, partly because they live in a community where everyone speaks Spanish. Jason pointed out examples he has seen first hand of people whose opportunities were limited because they never learned English well. So, the serfdom continues into the coming generations.

Huh? Bilingual ed and ESL programs are specifically designed to help English language learners become competent in English by fourth grade at the very latest. Almost all are competent in English by second grade. In Texas anyway, all children have to demonstrate English competency before middle school--they take and pass the same standardized tests as their peers. It's simply not possible for any student, native speaker or otherwise, to graduate from elementary without demonstrated proficiency in English.

Are other states different?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The majority of those highschool students in California who are unable to pass the highschool exit exam are those who do not speak english. If they aren't speaking it by their senior year of highschool then the system is obviously broken. The other group that makes up the majority are those students with some sort of disability which we would expect to see someone with a dissability struggle with the exit exam. Illegal immigration = Poverty. Of course, poverty in the U.S. is way better than living in poverty in the Philipines, Africa, or the Dominican Republic.

Illegal immigrants are less likely to report crimes, be vaccinated against harmful diseases, and are more likely to suffer health problems and be victims of crime. The children of illegal immigrants are more likely to be arrested for a crime, become a single parent as a teenager, and to not graduate from highschool than those who come her legally.

Just as a side note. I was watching the fox news last night and they were talking about the latest amnesty bill that some elected official attached a rider to that would require the Mexican Government to allow U.S. companies to invest in their oil industry before granting amnesty to illegal workers. Mexicans went crazy loco when they heard that and it effectively killed the bill. I guess the Mexican constitution itself prohibits any ownership in the oil industry in Mexico outside of the Mexican government. No wonder they want to come here. NAFTA may not be the great boon to Mexico anyway. New Holland operates a tractor plant in Mexico. Last year they moved part of the production to Italy because it is thousands of dollars less to make the tractors there. How? There is so little skilled labor in Mexico that the skilled laborers were being paid a premium to work in the plant. This extra cost of labor made it cheaper to go to Italy where there is a higher percentage of the population that is educated and skilled.

I agree that puting a fence up is not the total solution. Enforcement will only go so far. I believe that opening up legal means with proper vetting of who gets to come here so that criminals are not being let it is also part of the solution. I think that our neighbors to the south should get preference when the number of legal immigrants is determined. If a system is put in place that is fair, that system needs to work with immigration enforcement. I also think there should be greater pressure placed on Mexico to reform their economic system. There is no reason that a country with as vast a supply of resources and agricultural area as Mexico that it should remain in its third world status. It is simply shameful. They have a huge market for their products just to the north as well as for their natural resources. Tourism is another huge industry. But what incentive is there for them to change when the poorest, least educated can be pushed into the north where they will no longer be a burden or a disgruntled electorate for Mexico but will be a huge source of American dollars flowing into their economy. There is no incentive for them to make the changes their people need. The coruption of organized crime and even whole families running towns and states in Mexico is staggering.

Currently, I am working with a young man on helping him complete his graduation requirements in our town. His parents do not speak english but are here legally and have worked very hard. They own their home here in town. He speaks fluent English and Spanish and will most likely graduate. He is planning on going back to the area in Mexico where his family is from because all of his relatives work in the various government offices in the area. They basically run the area in Mexico. He even told me he can get me passports or papers for just about any country through these relatives. If he stays here he faces having to work and go to school. There he can go to school and everything is set for him through family contacts. Can you imagine if that happened in the U.S.? There would be investigations, charges of coruption, etc. But there, it is standard proceedure.

That's why it needs to change. Illegal immigrants live in the shadows in farming ghettos and under the worst conditions in this country while those in government who pontificate on on changes to the system live in homes that cost over a million dollars. They don't live in these communities, they are not subject to seeing people relieve themselves in the yards of one bedroom homes houseing five or more families or in the park across the street. They are not forced to clean up the discarded appliances, furniture, and other garbage dumped along the waterways and farm lands by those who do not have a garbage service because they are not even here legally. Their children are not attending school with children carrying diseases that should have been erradicated or forced to see mass infestations of lice run rampant in classrooms every year. I should take some pictures of the houses in this town, houses that would be condemned in Utah, Ohio, New York, and other states. How many times have they seen a mexican field worker passed out in front of the store in their suburban virginia town with some sort of alcohol in a brown bag at their side?

There have been instances in our area of crimes being committed against illegal immigrants or involving illegal immigrants where the cases were not pursued because the victims and witnesses simply dissapeared. Why, because they have no permanent homes in our area and they are not here legally. Women and children who are the victims of sexual assault and who are not here legally are very unlikely to report the assault or the perpetrator of the crime.

While the politicians bloviate the suffering continues. Blanket amnesty and opening the borders is not the solution. A balanced approach is needed that involves both enforcement and legal status for those who do not have a criminal background and are willing to work. No one has the guts to do what needs to be done in Washington or in the state capitals. They are more concerned about passing bans on lead ammunition, requirements for florescent lightbulbs, prohibitions on spanking children, or meaningless resolutions against the war while they jet off to their high dollar fundraisers. I'm not bitter, I'm just armed!

-- Edited by salesortonscom at 16:09, 2007-02-22

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

{looking around for the source of the patriotic music playing during Jason's speech...

}

Don't forget that they are also cutting deals with criminals to send a message to those who are trying to enforce border control... don't do it too well or you will go to prison...

Too little focus in all this political debate is placed on the self perpetuating situation and "shadow" fallout of illegal immigration, as you pointed out Jason. It is a complex issue, but not one that has warranted the analysis paralysis the government has used as an excuse to play dumb about it for so long. If they really looked at the type of things the average person has to deal with on both sides of the border, what the citizenry of our nation has to deal with, how the illegal immigrants actually are living, they would see the why and reason that this needs to be dealt with expeditiously. But no, they are more concerned with posturing and pointing fingers at each other, saying things like "Can't we just get along" when it is within there political party and "So-in-so is way out of line for saying what was said and you need to make sure he is censured and apologizes" when it is in the other party.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

We do not need immigration at all, let alone a guest worker program. The border should be shut down, there is absolutely no reason at all for this to continue. There are ways to fill the jobs, it is just that the no one in government has the cajones to do it.

A fence is needed on the southern border with the military patrolling it and the military patrolling the northern border.

BTW, illegal immigration into Mexico, that will land you in jail.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

No immigration at all? We don't need it? We are all the products of immigration and you want to shut it down completely? That seems an awful lot like overkill. I think this country can continue to benefit from immigrations with fresh perspectives and ideas.

As the child of an immigrant mother (legally), your wanting to shut down what allowed me to be. That doesn't sit too well with me for some reason.

-- Edited by TitusTodd at 15:59, 2007-02-28

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I knew there was a reason I was avoiding this topic.

*backs out*