Followup to girls in boys sports thread...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Followup to girls in boys sports thread...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

What a sicko. I don't know if it is the result of girls doing boys sports though. These pervs have been at track meets, volleyball games, and basketball for years. All are single sex teams so I think the problem isn't really the girls on the wrestling team in this case. The problem is a sicko doing something evil.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

salesortonscom wrote:

I don't know if it is the result of girls doing boys sports though.

Well, yeah of course it isn't a result of it. I was just thinking in a narrow-minded sort of way as to another argument for excluding them from what was my sport of choice when I was a teen...

I mean, using that sort of rational, and the fact that there are sickos out there and you want to remove a venue where they can get their jollies, one would have to definitely say girls shouldn't be doing swimming or diving or cheerleading or gymnastics or any of the other sports they are in.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

salesortonscom wrote:

I don't know if it is the result of girls doing boys sports though.

Well, yeah of course it isn't a result of it. I was just thinking in a narrow-minded sort of way as to another argument for excluding them from what was my sport of choice when I was a teen...

I mean, using that sort of rational, and the fact that there are sickos out there and you want to remove a venue where they can get their jollies, one would have to definitely say girls shouldn't be doing swimming or diving or cheerleading or gymnastics or any of the other sports they are in.

Exactly, The only reason I watched girls sports in High School is because I liked looking at highschool girls.

When I was in highschool there was one school that had a girl on the team. She lost nearly every match and cried afterwards. Our coach said that if a girl ever tried to join he would work so hard they would quit just like they did when they tried to go out for football. I think it is perfectly fine for boys to have some sports just for boys and girls to have some sports just for girls.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Our coach said that if a girl ever tried to join he would work so hard they would quit just like they did when they tried to go out for football. I think it is perfectly fine for boys to have some sports just for boys and girls to have some sports just for girls.

The girl on our highschool wrestling team isn't put off at all by hard workouts, so I guess if a girl joins your team, you may just end up with the best-conditioned team in the league.

But I agree, boys ought to be able to have boys-only sports, and likewise for girls. I also think that men should be able to have men-only social clubs, but that bird has flown, unfortunately.

Ros · Senior Member

"But I agree, boys ought to be able to have boys-only sports, and likewise for girls."

I agree. Absolutely.

However, I would like a definition of "traditionally male sport." I don't think it is the best arrangement for a single girl to be on the boys football team. But I do think girls should be given the opportunity to play a variety of sports.

My High School didn't have girls sports. The girls were cheerleaders and drill team. Period. Now, i realize that was a different century and it has improved but for me there were no options. I really wanted to play soccer. The best I could get was a managers position for the boys team. That way I could work-out with them and attend all the games.

A girl who wants to be on a team so she can play the sport is well within her right to do so. A girl who wants to play on a boys team just so she can prove something or break some anti-feminist mold is just annoying.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

I may have misspoken. I meant TEAMS more than SPORTS.

Girls or boys have my permission to participate in whatever sport suits their fancy. Boys and girls should be able to have single-sex teams and leagues.

Ros · Senior Member

Hoss Cartwright wrote:

Girls or boys have my permission to participate ....

Hoss has spoken. So let it be written, so let it be done!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Ros wrote:

I would like a definition of "traditionally male sport."

Wrestling is about as "traditionally" a male sport as you get... think Greco-Roman style wrestling (from which freestyle developed in modern times)... back in the ancient times of Greece when the first Olympics and stuff were done, women weren't even allowed at the event venues, and wrestling was one of the events. Or so I have it off the authority of the History Channel...

I personally do not like the idea of girls / women wrestling, nothing sexist, it is simply a sport I do not believe is unisex in nature. On the same hand, the only problem I see with the concept of equality of gender in access to any sport is the social engineering that comes in as the result of Title IX. There must be an equal number of sports available for both genders, and if one sport can not be reasonably accomodated for the opposite sex or an alternative add on sport (to where cumulative the school now has more sports programs), then the only alternative for the school is to drop the sport altogether. This is what happened at BYU and several other universities who would not allow women's wrestling and did not have the funds or facilities to bring on another women's collegiate sport. In order to avoid being non-compliant with Title IX and NCAA requirements, they opted to simply disband their wrestling program.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 12:39, 2007-01-14

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Title IX does not say there must be an equal number of sports for men and women. Rather, there must be an equal number of scholarships offered to men and women. Because BYU (and other Division I schools) offer 85 scholarships for football players, that means 85 scholarships for women's sports must counterbalance that. Since there is no female equivalent to football at the intercollegiate level, that discrepancy must be made up by borrowing scholarships from other male sports: gymnastics, wrestling, soccer, and others.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well, the mechanics I cited may have been incorrect, but the net result is the same. Unless there is a way to fund additional scholarships (and I believe it is a finite # given per school), then certain sports and teams for one gender end up suffering to equalize for the other gender.

It may have been, and I'll have to look it up to make sure, that BYU dumped it's wrestling program because it was not going to allow a female equivalent to wrestling at the school.

It could also have been a combination of the two.

But the question also comes up in my mind, why does a program have to have scholarships for athletes at all in order to exist? Say BYU decides, hey, we aren't going to give any athletic scholarships to wrestlers anymore, but the team / sport stays... I still don't think that would have cut the mustard with what was coming down the pipe.

Anyway, got me thinking. Aren't there going to be student athletes that will go to the school and still want to do the interscholastic sport without a scholarship? I mean, granted, a scholarship is a great incentive if the young man or young women is really in for the academic aspect of college. But, if all things were equal, if a student wants to go to a school bad enough and doesn't get an athletic scholarship, they are still going to attend the school, don't you think? I had a room mate right after our missions who got on one of the teams at BYU as a walk on. He was hoping to get a scholarship eventually, but didn't. And, due to health reasons (which were just being determined at the time) that limited his competitiveness and to concentrate on school, he ended up resigning.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

RE: Followup to s in boys sports thread...

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

It may have been, and I'll have to look it up to make sure, that BYU dumped it's wrestling program because it was not going to allow a female equivalent to wrestling at the school.

Yes, look it up, will you? I don't believe this had anything to do with BYU's decision. Do you think there was threat of a lawsuit or some NCAA ruling or something? I would like to see an accurate statement about the issue , rather than hearsay.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

RE: Followup to girls in boys sports thread...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

In a sexually "modern" society, wrestling just ain't right.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Here is an article from BYU Today, Summer 1999:

MEN’S GYMNASTICS AND WRESTLING TEAMS
CUT FROM Y ROSTER

By Carri Jenkins

After long and careful study, BYU has decided to phase out the men's gymnastics and wrestling teams.

"This has been a very difficult decision, but one that had to be made," said BYU advancement vice president K. Fred Skousen. "Across the country, fewer schools are sponsoring men's gymnastics and wrestling teams. The trend is particularly apparent in our new Mountain West Conference, where even before BYU's decision there were not enough teams in wrestling and men's gymnastics to conduct an NCAA-qualifying championship."

"This has been particularly painful for me," said athletic director Rondo Fehlberg. "We have done everything we could do to preserve these two unique sports, which have had such strong traditions on our campus. As a former wrestler my heart goes out to these athletes and their families and supporters.

"We are especially grateful to coaches Makoto Sakamoto and Mark Schultz and their staffs, who have guided these programs under increasingly challenging circumstances."

A report out last fall in the NCAA News Digest says men's gymnastics and wrestling are undergoing significant decreases in NCAA Division I sponsorship. The number of men's gymnastics teams nationwide fell from 41 in 1992–93 to 27 in 1997–98. Skousen said that in making the decision, BYU and other Mountain West Conference schools evaluated the strengths and stated objectives of the new conference. As a result, the University of New Mexico has decided to eliminate men's gymnastics, wrestling, and men's swimming.

BYU plans to phase out the two teams over a one-year period, meaning all incoming seniors will be able to complete their eligibility at BYU. For underclassmen BYU will either facilitate transfers to other schools or continue financial assistance for athletes who choose to stay. Under specific NCAA legislation, athletes who transfer will immediately be eligible to compete.

"We realize that we are going to lose some fine athletes and coaches who have made great contributions," Skousen said. "We will do everything possible to help them pursue their dreams."

And then from The Daily Universe (ostensibly)

Cougars last stand in wrestling

Daily Universe Feb. 22, 2000

By James Randall

It may have seemed like a funeral for collegiate wrestling in Provo, but the BYU Cougars made sure they went out in grand fashion on Saturday night.

In what was most likely the final home meet ever at BYU, it seems only fitting that a program feeling pinned under Title IX, budget constraints and administration, would end its meet the same way the program is ending – Pinned! Pinned! Pinned!

Except on this night it was the BYU wrestlers doing the pinning.

Back-to-back-to-back pins from the three final wrestlers - Adam Bendorf, Brandon Ruiz, and Chris Miller – helped the Cougars rally from behind to beat the Air Force Academy, 28-15.

"Bendorf stared off with a pin and a boom, boom, boom," BYU head coach Mark Schultz said. We needed that first pin sp bad- that made the whole difference."

"That pin turned the corner," assistant coach Terry Geuling said.

The team finished the season strong, beating nationally ranked Oregon State last week and pinning a talented Air Force team this week.

Heavyweight Chris Miller has finished particularly strong, beating a nationally-ranked wrestler last week and pinning his man this week.

"I think it really boosts our confidence. It shows us where we're at and kind of sets a gauge to what we need to do in two weeks at regionals," Miller said.

Rangi Smart BYU's hottest wrestler with a 10-match winning streak, agrees with Miller.

"I think it has given us a lot of confidence going in," Smart said. "Last year we beat Oregon State, but we lost to Air Force. It kind of took the wind out of our sails. This year has been the exact opposite. We'll all be looking to wrestle even better."

The three pins that put BYU on top came from the three heaviest weight classes.

"Heavyweights are a different breed," Schultz said. "A lot of times you get impatient. It's magnified in heavyweights – one mistake and it's done."

From a meet in the Delta Center with wrestling powerhouse Iowa, to Trent Rollins losing a match at the very last second, to a finale with Air Force that included three consecutive pins for a come from behind win, this year has been memorable for the BYU wrestling team.

And then from a non-BYU source:

BYU cuts wrestling, gymnastics.

Source: The Albuquerque Tribune (Albuquerque, NM)

Publication Date: 04/02/1999

PROVO, Utah Brigham Young University is dropping wrestling and men's gymnastics programs because of the dwindling number of schools that offer the two sports.

The two sports will be eliminated following the 1999-2000 season, the school said Thursday. The move came one day after the University of New Mexico said it would cut those two programs, plus men's swimming, effective immediately.

Nationally, the number of NCAA wrestling programs in Divisions I, II and III has dipped from around 700 in the early 1970s to 300. Men's gymnastics programs have dropped from 100 to 26.

Sounds like Hoss has it spot on. The programs across the nation have pretty much become the casualty of Title IX policy as interpreted and enforced by the NCAA. They create a no-win situation in which everyone get's penalized since equity is not feasible by adding.

So, I wonder, what would convince the MWC schools and other schools who have dropped sports programs to start them up again? What incentive would they need, if all that was preventing them from maintaining them in the first place was equal scholarships, funds and attention to a women's sports program?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

My alma matter cut several mens sports as a result of title IX restrictions. Initially it was just mens soccer, cross country, and swimming. Soccer supporters rallied and came up with enough money to support it on it's own for a couple years. As I understand it, title nine isn't just about scholarships, it is also about how much money the school spends on men's sports in relation to women's sports. If there are fewer men's sports then the money balance required by title IX is achieved. Last year it was announced that wrestling would be cut but men's crosscountry would be brought back. One of our wrestlers medaled at the last olympics and the program was extremely popular but it all came down to money and title IX. There are some wrestling supporters that are trying to save the program like they did with men's soccer. We will have to wait and see.

arbilad · Head Chef

It's of course a noble goal to try to allow women more opportunities to participate in sports. But artificial quotas typically don't work. Telling colleges that they must spend an equal amount on female and male sports forces them to make weird decisions like this.