Disciplining kids

arbilad · Head Chef

Disciplining kids

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Wow! I did another lurksee over there, and dang there are some folks that would have best recused themselves from the tar & feathering... er discussion... early on... man it appears there is a good case of... what's that little phenomena that occurs so often over there? Could it be... groupthink attitude?

I first noticed that thread yesterday. I mentioned to Ray privately that there sure were a lot of folks there getting themselves all in a tizzy over what was nothing more than a father expressing the frustration of the level of discipline that they (he and wife) were having to use that particular day. I wouldn't have displayed the civility to take that sort of innuendo... I would have ended up getting

I doubt because of the politics there that anyone other than Ray or the fellows who stood up to help diffuse / support him against the unfounded and baseless attacks will be reprimanded.

Ray, you can help with my mini-beserker warriors any time!

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Wow! Not belonging to Navoo I really don't know what is going on over there but I will share my discipline views here for all to see. I personally utilize a wide array of different methods of punishment. My brother and I were little hellions. We would get into all sorts of trouble. We lived on a farm so there were lots of options for punishment. Sometimes there was work, sometimes there was taking privileges or things away, sometimes there were harsh words, time outs, and the occassional wood or tupperware spoon on the behind if we were really out of control. We were never beaten but when the spoon came out we deserved it. The reason we got the spoon is mom got tired of here hand hurting like the dickens if she used it to swat us. I personally can attest that several wood and a few tupperware spoons did not live to see another meal. It became a longstanding joke when we purchased replacements for mom on special occassions such as birthdays and christmas. We all turned out fine.

I use similar methods with my own children. Each child and situation is different. I have one child I can just look at harshely and he knows he is in big trouble. I have one that will look me defiantly in the eye even after a swat on the tush. I had to put that child outside in the backyard one night when she was particularly defiant. I don't think a child should be beaten but I will spank one of my children if the situation warrants it. I don't think any parent has the right to tell another one that they shouldn't spank a child. I don't think a child should be kicked or punched or hit on the head, chest ect in such a way that a mark would be visible. I also don't think a child should be called names and put down but I have no problem telling one of my kids that their action or behavior is dissapointing in such a way that I can make them feel very low for their actions.

I'm not a believer in the whole self esteem movement. I do praise the good and condemn the bad things my children do. I get excited for their accomplishments but I don't sugar coat their failures or try and smooth over their bad decisions so that they "feel better" about themselves. I want them to understand clearly that hard work, success, quality, and good behavior are things to strive for. Not trying your best, sloppy work, misbehavior, etc are bad. I do let them know that sometimes they will fail and make mistakes but that the key is to try harder next time and try not to repeat the mistake again. I don't believe in giving out trophys, ribbons, or medals for participation. They hold no value. I only ever truly won a handful of medals for athletics and I kept every single one of them. The ribbons for participation were long forgotten and lost.

I don't know what Ray said on Navoo. I don't belong to Navoo because it sounds too much like Fondoo which just makes me hungry! But unless he was beating his child, I think people should have just butted out.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I don't think Ray expected that reaction. Ray, are you okay?

I was about to make another post but Ray deleted the thread. On the surface I don't feel good about the discipline method he used (not all of it) but I don't think I can judge what Ray did based on what was on the surface of his post. I don't think I know enough about Hannah or the situation to do so. I think some of what he posted was taken wrong. I wouldn't ignore or reward misbehavior either, however.

Parenting is so personal to parents. It should be. But reaction to how others do their discipline and how we take that reaction can get...er...interesting. I remember a spanking discussion I was actively involved in over at Nauvoo a few years ago. Someone said it was evil and not Christlike . We don't spank and I am not a proponent of it and I stated my case but I did not condemn others for it nor would I. It is a personal choice regarding personal situations for personal reasons.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

It is times like what happened in that thread that I am glad I don't have to worry about being a part of that "community" over there. Even when I tried to be part, I was often not received as more than just an unwanted red-headed stepchild outside of The Fortress.

On the topic of disciplining kids, anyone have any ideas as to what a set of parents can do with a four year old boy who obviously exhibits the symptoms of short term memory loss? "Get off the table!" "Don't stand on the back of the couch!" "Stop jumping on the bed!" "Stop climbing up and jumping off the video cabinet!" (note, kid even ripped open an incision and stitches that hadn't healed completely by doing this, but that didn't teach him to stop doing it for more than a couple hours)...

{Bill Cosby}"Sit down! Sit sit sit sit sit!" "Come here! Here here here here here here!" "Be quite! Quite quite quite quite quite!" "Bill! I want you to kill the boy!" "Okay, the beatings will now begin!" "If I have to come back in here one more time tonight, I am going to bring the belt! Now go to bed!"

arbilad · Head Chef

Even if we assume that Ray was totally wrong to shut his daughter up for the whole day without her bookcase (and I don't, personally), Ray was being treated very poorly in that thread. One poster took the attitude of commanding him to stop the punishment right now. They made up many details to support their attack. They behaved very poorly, and, in my case, some of the email aftermath has left a very bad taste in my mouth. Someone sent me an email where they significantly changed what I wrote, said that it was word for word what I posted, and accused me of being a liar for saying I didn't say that.

In other words, the reaction to what Ray said was not only disproportionate, but mean spirited. Not in all cases. There were those who didn't like what Ray was doing, but stated their opposition in a more reasoned and mild manner. That's constructive. But I was shocked by a lot of behavior in that thread.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

There were attacks from both ends of the issue (except from Ray). At least there was one apology. There was some over-reaction and mis-reaction (yes, I made that up ). That is, of course, my opinion.

Having been part of the Nauvoo community for over 5 years now I have seen a few issues that cause quite a stir in the community just as in any "real" community. Most often the reaction was miscommunication. Sometimes the message was misinterpreted. Sometimes the reaction was misinterpreted. Sometimes our flaws just show their ugly mugs. We all fail at times to communicate and some may interpret that as a failure of the community but that is just the nature of any community. I try to express myself with the understanding of how others will react which means I have to know somewhat the people I am communicating with. I also try to take what others have stated within the scope of who they are. Sometimes I fail. I often think that is why a discussion turns heated - both sides have failed to an extent to send and receive the message in context of who both parties are. But then, sometimes people just become rude and don't care. This is not pointed criticism, by the way.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Arbilad said:I was appalled at the holier than thou attitude of most responders in the thread Ray started at Nauvoo. Especially one person who felt that there was absolutely no possibility that she was wrong. What was most galling, though, was that person was making the most horrible accusations behind a mask of being concerned and not wanting to make any accusations. I read that thread with a growing feeling of misbelief that church members could act that way to each other.

That particular poster does this on any topic that she feels strongly about. She has done it to me more than once. The word "homophobe" comes to mind...

Her posts are more about her than they are about anyone else on the board. As such, I hope Ray was able to file her opinion where it belonged.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I know there are folks who don't believe children should be disciplined.

Though I didn't expect to find so many vocal advocates at Nauvoo...

I don't know that the punishment would've been worth the effort had I not received some reaction from my daughter. I know there are some people who believe there should never be any form of discipline, but I don't think that's healthy.

Even as an adult in the church, I feel an obligation to fast (which is something of a timeout) and remove myself from privileges from time to time. I think it's healthy. When a child is younger, some of them don't naturally remove themselves from their indulgences. My little one had started to be pretty onery, throwing tantrums, spitting on her mom and sisters and dad when they asked her to do something, and utterly refusing to be respectful to mom, endangering herself by willful rebellions and well... having read the Book of Mormon, what did God do to his children because he loved them?

Shall we consult the scriptures?

Rev. 3: 19 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Hel. 15: 3 3 Yea, wo unto this people who are called the people of Nephi except they shall repent, when they shall see all these signs and wonders which shall be showed unto them; for behold, they have been a chosen people of the Lord; yea, the people of Nephi hath he loved, and also hath he chastened them; yea, in the days of their iniquities hath he chastened them because he loveth them.
D&C 95: 1 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you—

Hrm... so apparently if it's good enough for god it's good enough for me. :) --Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 13:50, 2006-12-07

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

So, what you're saying is: God is a child abuser too.

Arbilad, what is this email fallout you refer to?

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I believe what was being advocated was misbehavior prevention and not necessarily no discipline. Suggestions were aimed at solving the problem that is causing the misbehavior. I think misbehavior, regardless of cause (other than some disability) needs to result in discipline. The lack of mentioning that by some doesn't mean they didn't think it needed to happen. So some were concentrating on prevention recommendations, others did not agree with your method and the rest had no problem with it.

-- Edited by TitusTodd at 14:20, 2006-12-07

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

arbilad wrote:

Someone sent me an email where they significantly changed what I wrote, said that it was word for word what I posted, and accused me of being a liar for saying I didn't say that.

You are waaaaay too approachable. Most of the people there would rather not send me emails.

I'm like Voldemort.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

So, Ray, I wanted to ask, before you flushed the thread:

How has this episode affected your relationship with your daughter? Are things improving? Does she cringe at the sight of you?

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I'm sorry about the e-mail fallout. That is just sad. I haven't ever experienced that. Any edited post would reflect an edit (but I edit so many of my posts because of little mistakes here and there and not usually for content).

-- Edited by TitusTodd at 14:32, 2006-12-07

arbilad · Head Chef

I'm not going to rehash the disagreement here (I have no illusions that Bountiful is immune from that kind of fight, nor do I think that there is no chance that the other party is not reading Bountiful), but in general terms, I compared what one poster was saying to someone deliberately insulting someone, but with the disclaimer that they didn't mean to insult them. I used an example. I made sure that the example was non-specific (that is, that no one could think it was aimed at them). This poster decided to interpret it as aimed at them. When the thread was deleted, they emailed me and, instead of what I said "What if I walked up to someone on the street and said..." followed by insult, they "quoted" me as saying, "Postername, (insult)". That is, a deliberate misquoting of what I said.

If I ever get to the point where I'm causing offense and hiding behind a shield of false contriteness, please let me know.

trooperswife · Member

Since I post here and there, I figured I'd chime in. I hope that I am considered one of the posters on that thread who gave a reasoned difference of opinion. I suppose ray can let me know.

I think that the biggest problem with the situation was that, apart from what Titus said (parenting is personal), it quickly became a polarized discussion. One side thought that the other promoted abuse, the other side thought the other promoted doing nothing. I don't see where either side did that.

Bottom line for me? I wouldn't do what Ray did. I have my reasons for that, not the least of which is my own personal experiences as a child. I also don't spank my children. I don't know that it's wrong for EVERY parent to spank, but I know with a surety that it would be wrong for ME to. It's about where the line into unrighteous dominion would be crossed.

And can I just say one more thing? (duh, I don't know, can you?) I think the single most important non-spiritual thing we can learn as parents is the developmental stages and abilities of all age groups of children. Many times, just knowing where our children are at concretely within their physical, emotional, social, and biological development, we can clearly see what measures will and will not work in parenting them. Yes, we have inspiration, but we need to study and educate ourselves so that we come from a place of not only how to parent that child, but how to parent that child based on the developmental stage they are in.

Another thing: (see how I just lied about the one more thing thing?) You can never, ever get to the point when you think you have figured out how to parent. My mom, who has successfully raised/is raising 9 children, told me the other day that she still learns every day how to do better, to be better. She doesn't beat herself up if she finds out she could've done something more effective, she just says, "Ok, then, that's good to know."

Somewhere in this blathering is something revelant, I swear...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I would never discipline my children the way Ray did. It's not because I'm morally opposed to what he did. It's not because I think he's wrong. It's because my kids won't respond to that method.

I agree that parents should learn about child development. It has certainly helped me in raising my own kids and in understanding the kids in my class. However, on discipline issues, even the experts are all over the map.

It was interesting to see how a number of folks consider themselves experts because they have a subscription to Parenting magazine, or because they're raising kids, or worked with kids for a while, etc. Perhaps they are experts, FOR THEIR OWN KIDS.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

trooperswife wrote:

Somewhere in this blathering is something revelant, I swear...

Ahhhh! Yer swearin'! I'm gonna tell yer mommy on you!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper wrote:

I agree that parents should learn about child development. It has certainly helped me in raising my own kids and in understanding the kids in my class. However, on discipline issues, even the experts are all over the map.

It was interesting to see how a number of folks consider themselves experts because they have a subscription to Parenting magazine, or because they're raising kids, or worked with kids for a while, etc. Perhaps they are experts, FOR THEIR OWN KIDS.

This is something that I feel is wise too. It can only help. But, for the vast majority of us, we don't have that luxury of being able to take early childhood development classes while in college. Even for those of us who go to BYU don't, the majority of us don't get that opportunity as the classes are: 1. never heard about; 2. assumed to be or actually are limited to elementary education majors / minors; 3. not fitting into a graduation need requirement (e.g. does not fit any of the GE profile requirements). Why isn't this sort of class then considered important enough to incent non elementary ed majors to take? You would think that at BYU, there would be a major incentive given for as many as possible to take at least one or two classes that deal with family life, marital relations, and early childhood development via GE, and it would be opened up to non-student spouses as well since they encourage couples to take some of these classes together (at least the ones I took years ago, and my non-student wife couldn't attend with me because, well, she was just that, not a student of the university).

So, since the majority of people never take those classes, how do they learn to be decent parents? Trail and error and from example of those around them (parents, siblings, peers, friends, etc.). It takes a village to raise a child, and right / wrong / indifferent, that village also teaches parents how to raise the child. If we strive to live the gospel, that can help us out as parents immensely.

palmon · Senior Member

I pick and choose what I read anywhere and hense, did not read the thread that is being referred to. At least, I don't think I did. (Does that cover me if I actually made a post on it?)

I am going to throw out an arrow - I ask forgiveness in advance. It really is not a good thing to be talking bad about a person from another forum. If something needs to be said, it should be said to him/her.

As a former child and a parent of many sons - here is my thought: What works for some makes it worse for others. Each child needs what that child needs. For some, to be spanked would be worse than devastating. For others, it seems to be the only way to get the child's attention.

To be isolated in a room without books? Abuse? Abuse seems to have changed definations from when I learned the meaning. To put a reader in a room with books sounds like punishing a child by giving them what they love and the time to do it in. Now to put a book-hater in that room with books - now that may be punishment.

I have had several neighbors that used a belt to discipline their kids. Yet, these kids were the best behaved kids in the neighborhood. The "greatest generation" where brought up with strict discipline, yet looked what they accomplished.

However you discipline, remember that while the child may not remember it - you will for your life. I harbor guilt for being too harsh with the oldest half of my kids and
too soft for the younger half. That they have grown to be great adults is not because of us, but because of the spirit they came with. (BTW, for some, the journey to being great adults was not so straight and the detours were hard for everyone)

Right now, I'm learning puppy rearing. They respond really quickly to rewards - if that means anything. But, no matter what I do, I cannot get him to pick up his toys and put them away. He just got into the dental floss - can you imagen what happens to him then? Before was chewing my computer wires. I threw him out of the room and am isolating him.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat, you don't have to take a class to learn about child development. Try the library.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

palmon wrote:

I am going to throw out an arrow - I ask forgiveness in advance. It really is not a good thing to be talking bad about a person from another forum. If something needs to be said, it should be said to him/her.

Note: The following is my personal opinion only.

I don't think folks are necessarily talking bad about a person from another forum. The discussion is more centered on what some feel was an unwarranted response assuming the worst in the opening poster the topic generated. If that discussion includes pointing out that some individuals may have grabbed the bull by the wrong end, then I believe it is not entirely out of order. As I've stated in various forms several times before, if folks in said other forum spent more time communicating (which entails listening and trying to understand instead of assuming and getting one's dander up), there would be more overall utility to participation there as well as less of the cyclical contention.

In the spirit of the season, when you mentioned the puppy chewing on the computer cords, I imagined a similar scene as what happened to the cat chewing on the christmas lights in the classic hit comedy film, Christmas Vacation.

bokbadok wrote:

Cat, you don't have to take a class to learn about child development. Try the library.

That is an option as well. But isn't that still kind of like the scenario roper brings up about those who are getting their information from Parenting magazine or what have you? Self-educated? Where are the credentials? How does one know if the books they are looking at are any good or are just there because someone got their ideas published?

palmon · Senior Member

Now I have to watch Christmas vacation.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

palmon wrote:

Now I have to watch Christmas vacation.

Great movie, especially when Eddie shows up!

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Bokbadok:Try the Library.

CatHerderThat is an option as well. But isn't that still kind of like the scenario roper brings up about those who are getting their information from Parenting magazine or what have you? Self-educated? Where are the credentials? How does one know if the books they are looking at are any good or are just there because someone got their ideas published?

I'm not talking about pop-psych books and magazines. I am talking about basic psychology/child development books. There is a difference.

Frankly, you can't be sure that information taught in a college class is any good. Most of the information dispensed in psychology classes is Theory anyway. It's only "true" as long as the theory isn't disproven.

But, if you're very leery of "self-education", perhaps you can sign yourself or your wifey up for a child development class at the local college. Barring the time for that, you could find out what text such a class would use, and go online and buy it.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I know I'm throwing out an arrow here, but I think you're all nutz...

Okay so people disagree with my methods or they agree, what's that to me? I'd be more interested in whether folks think God disciplines his children? ANd how does he do it? And is it appropriate as a parent to follow God's example?

--Ray

palmon · Senior Member

Was kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden discipline? He has certainly set forth a set of rules.

-- Edited by palmon at 18:46, 2006-12-08

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

btw, I don't have a problem with folks discussing stuff that occurs on other boards... cuz well. some folk that are here have not been allowed there, so until things are fairly accessible to all, I think this sort of thing is going to occur. That said did anyone name names besides mine? And you all know I'm such a narcissist that if you weren't discussing me, I'd be sad.

--Ray

palmon · Senior Member

No names were mentioned (besides yours), but enough was said that I could tell who was being referred to.
People here are not allowed there? I am stunned, because this board contains the best of the best.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

How has this episode affected your relationship with your daughter? Are things improving? Does she cringe at the sight of you?

Actually we've come to an understanding... she stays on her side of the house, and I stay on mine.

Okay, I'm joking.

Sondra (my wife) says she's been incredibly good since that day (and I've noticed it too). In fact, today at the bus stop, Hannah ran off with three of her friends. They all ran full-bore down the street without their momma, her mom called out, "Stop!" and she actually stopped and then waited for her mother to catch up. I wasn't even there to back her up! Her friends continued to run off... despite both mothers calling out to their children not to run too far ahead.

In the past she's run off and would not respond without many "threats" from her mother... Honestly, I think she's happier. Not sure that makes sense, but it's like she wanted her parents to set some boundaries and stick to their guns... but what do I know about kids?

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

Honestly, I think she's happier. Not sure that makes sense, but it's like she wanted her parents to set some boundaries and stick to their guns... but what do I know about kids?

--Ray

Apparently a great deal. One of the hallmarks of social development in kids between the ages of four and about seven is the discovery of the behavioral boundaries of their world--familiy, friends, church, school, grandma's house, etc. And it's a lot for them to keep straight. That's why simple rules (and not many of them) and consistent consequences are so important. Kids will push and experiment with behavior to discover those boundaries. When the boundaries are clearly defined, kids can feel safe within them. It would be developmentally inappropriate (and in my opinion cruel) to give them nothing.

arbilad · Head Chef

palmon wrote:

No names were mentioned (besides yours), but enough was said that I could tell who was being referred to.
People here are not allowed there? I am stunned, because this board contains the best of the best.

I did respond to the person in question. I was just recounting the incident because someone asked about my comment about "email fallout".
I didn't try too hard to hide who it was I was talking about, but I figured that if I used this poster's handle then it would seem more like simple recrimination, rather than just bemoaning the situation.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

In fact, today at the bus stop, Hannah ran off with three of her friends. They all ran full-bore down the street without their momma, her mom called out, "Stop!" and she actually stopped and then waited for her mother to catch up.

I'm glad to see that you've got that problem under control. It's so scary. Everyone laughs when they see a little kid running from their mother, right until she runs into the street.

LEVE · Veteran Member

My kids keep telling me to stay off Nauvoo because I don't suffer fools easily. It seems like when someone opens a thread for discussion that many posters get their stupid hats on and type away. In Rayb's thread I was shocked how fast that happened.

Ahhhhhh........ignorance really is bliss... till it comes around and bites ya on the cedar end.

arbilad · Head Chef

LEVE wrote:

My kids keep telling me to stay off Nauvoo because I don't suffer fools easily. It seems like when someone opens a thread for discussion that many posters get their stupid hats on and type away. In Rayb's thread I was shocked how fast that happened.

Ahhhhhh........ignorance really is bliss... till it comes around and bites ya on the cedar end.

Funny, I thought we were all fools in this forum too. I just happen to like it here because I can set the rules, so my sort of foolishness is allowed

arbilad · Head Chef

BTW, Trooperswife, I think you were calm and rational in the discussion. I'm willing to discuss with people anything, as long as they're willing to see both sides, are willing to listen to your arguments and not just ignore them as they try to make their point, accept your evidence, etc.
I'm willing to discuss with someone that black is actually fuscia, if they are willing to debate it, and not just do the written equivalent of putting their hands over their ears and shouting their opinion without end.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

bok,
Ditto. We're on the same wavelength!

Ray said
I'd be more interested in whether folks think God disciplines his children? ANd how does he do it?
Well, He has been known to remove blessings, withhold food and water for extended periods of time, and even allow bodily harm to occur, even unto death, in extreme examples. Now, the difference is that He is perfect, and we are not. He knows when it is appropriate to use the different forms of punishment and time-out. We are learning, and there are some forms that He uses that are not appropriate to our situation as stewards and care takers of our spiritual siblings who are our mortal children. As Trooperswife pointed out, we each need to determine what is best for us and the individual child we are working with.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think God is big on The Silent Treatment. At least that's what He uses with me.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Sometimes I find that sending a child to their room is as much a protection of the child as a punishment. For one thing, it gives me a chance to think things though... remind myself that I love my children more than things. :)

--Ray

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

Aw, man! I missed all the fireworks - I never get to see the fun stuff.

Since we're bashing Nauvoo, I'll add my favorite bash: It's the only MB I've ever been to that allows non-moderators to delete OTHER people's comments. Thread deletion by OP is a tool of the devil.

Anyway, my two cents on the issue:

I have a daughter. I can basically reduce her to a trembling pile of tears with a stern look. Phisical discipline of any kind, painful or not, would be a serious trauma to her, and could really screw her up permanent-like. It doesn't really matter what she's done, or about to do - physical discipline will only make things worse.

My cousin has a son of about the same age. He's a thick-headed, willful, tank of a boy, who tends to want what he wants, and seeks to obtain it by buldozing through whatever is in his way. You almost need to hit him upside his head with a 2X4 to get his attention. He often doesn't hear people talking to him, or shouting at him, or throwing things at him, or picking him up and yelling in his face. There's just him, and the thing he wants. The only consequence his parents have found that the kid will notice, is physical pain. The only threat they can make that seems to dent his desires, is the threat of pain. They often use these threats and consequences. He's a good kid and a tough kid. The words "victim" or "traumatized" really have never met him, much less ever stuck to him.

They are good parents, and so am I.

HSR

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

HSR, I wish you would post more often.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Homestar Runner wrote:

Aw, man! I missed all the fireworks - I never get to see the fun stuff.

Since we're bashing Nauvoo, I'll add my favorite bash: It's the only MB I've ever been to that allows non-moderators to delete OTHER people's comments. Thread deletion by OP is a tool of the devil.

Anyway, my two cents on the issue:

I have a daughter. I can basically reduce her to a trembling pile of tears with a stern look. Phisical discipline of any kind, painful or not, would be a serious trauma to her, and could really screw her up permanent-like. It doesn't really matter what she's done, or about to do - physical discipline will only make things worse.

My cousin has a son of about the same age. He's a thick-headed, willful, tank of a boy, who tends to want what he wants, and seeks to obtain it by buldozing through whatever is in his way. You almost need to hit him upside his head with a 2X4 to get his attention. He often doesn't hear people talking to him, or shouting at him, or throwing things at him, or picking him up and yelling in his face. There's just him, and the thing he wants. The only consequence his parents have found that the kid will notice, is physical pain. The only threat they can make that seems to dent his desires, is the threat of pain. They often use these threats and consequences. He's a good kid and a tough kid. The words "victim" or "traumatized" really have never met him, much less ever stuck to him.

They are good parents, and so am I.

HSR

Reminds me of my two oldest. My oldest daughter just needs a stern look to know she is out of bounds and occassionally a verbal rebuke. The next daughter is a lot like your cousin's little boy. She is getting better but for a while she driving me nuts. I had to put her in the back yard twice at night to get her attention. Different methods for different children. She got better after starting kindergarten where she was even more structured and started to see that we weren't the only ones with rules. I worry about this one when she becomes a teenager because she is so head strong bent on doing what she wants to do and darn the consequences. I could put this child in her room for a whole day and she would just go to sleep. She has that look in her eye when you are punishing her that just screams defiance. It makes things interesting. I wonder what she was like in the pre-existence?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

SO how do you reach a child like that?

I happen to have a relation who was that way. His parents were strong on the discipline. He considers himself a victim for his childhood. He simply doesn't remember all the good times, only the wounds to his pride and how he can get back at them now. Much of his rage has been traced back to a visit to a psychologist who cast him as the victim, and trashed his parents. We so often take sides, commisserate and show sympathy for folk who would be better off if they were told to forgive and forget.

--Ray

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

bokbadok wrote:

HSR, I wish you would post more often.

Me too - when you guys gonna get some liberals here to argue with?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

What you talking about? Why, compared to some of the political leanings we've had here so far, Ray and I are downright liberal in comparison! ha ha ha!

Or do you mean liberal in dispensing of discipline to the kids?

arbilad · Head Chef

Homestar Runner wrote:

bokbadok wrote:

HSR, I wish you would post more often.

Me too - when you guys gonna get some liberals here to argue with?

We had a democrat (not necessarily the same thing), but he doesn't post anymore. We have a liberal that I know of, but she has not posted once. Do you think we scare them off?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I can't speak for the rest of ya, but I know I was showering every day.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I had to put her in the back yard twice at night to get her attention.

Now see...my daughter would be climbing over the back wall. (Yes, she's 4 years old.) We already took the handle off the faucet because of her penchant for flooding the yard or she'd do that instead.

I feel like I probably should have chimed in on that thread as an opposing opinion to the majority, but...didn't really see the point. Especially since it didn't seem like Ray was particularly put out.

It seems like when someone opens a thread for discussion that many posters get their stupid hats on and type away.