Is Israel suicidal?

arbilad · Head Chef

Is Israel suicidal?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

If nothing more, they gain the appearance of the moral high road to at least most of the western world...

And, as I've understood it, a cease fire is not really an agreement to stop build up or troop movement or the like behind your own lines. A cease fire, at least by anecdotal traditional definition is pretty much just that... a temporary agreement to stop aggression across a front line in order to gather wounded off the battlefield, bury the dead, exchange prisoners... Of course, the two, almost three, generation old conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is not your typical conventional war where there are trenches and front lines and the like. I don't know.

Roper, you're the military expert around here. What do you think?

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat Herder wrote:

If nothing more, they gain the appearance of the moral high road to at least most of the western world...

And, as I've understood it, a cease fire is not really an agreement to stop build up or troop movement or the like behind your own lines. A cease fire, at least by anecdotal traditional definition is pretty much just that... a temporary agreement to stop aggression across a front line in order to gather wounded off the battlefield, bury the dead, exchange prisoners... Of course, the two, almost three, generation old conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is not your typical conventional war where there are trenches and front lines and the like. I don't know.

Roper, you're the military expert around here. What do you think?

In this specific instance, the Palestinians agreed to stop running guns. They also never really stopped firing rockets, they just wanted the Israelis to stop attacking them while they regrouped.

What good is the moral high ground if you're destroyed as a country?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Well, not really an expert...I was trained to be an analyst--interpret intelligence issues from several different perspectives to help commanders determine an informed course of action. So here's my take:

Of course the Palestinians will use the cease-fire to regroup and rearm. Israel knows they will, and shouldn't expect anything different. As Cat said, this may be a move to hopefully show the Western world, specifically Europe, that Israel is committed to a peaceful solution.

Which leads to what is, I think, a dangerous way to prosecute a war--public opinion. From a military doctrine standpoint, you should use overwhelming force to destroy the enemy's capacity to make war. Of course, various factors complicate that, especially with Israel, but once you abandon that doctrine in favor of a "politically correct" campaign, you have chosen the path to extended warfare, greater overall losses, and, in the end, failure. It's a lesson we learned the hard way in Viet-nam and one that we seem determined to learn the hard way again in Iraq. Israel seems to be heading the same direction.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Makes me wonder... could all this be some of the precurser events that could eventually lead up to the prophesied (as in foreodained but not pre-destined) battle of Armageddon, where the "nations of the world" are gathered against Israel arrayed to give them battle? The enemies of Israel decide that the only way they will win is to gather together that overwhelming force to absolutely destroy Israel? Isn't that what a number of the wacko's (al Sadr, Pres. Tom of Iran, the nuts in Al Qaida, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Baathist regime in Syria, that Muslim Brotherhood group in Egypt, and who knows who else) want? They all want to gain power and control over their part of the world (and build an islamic empire after their own interpretation that extends as far as they can reach it) and are using the Palestinian "cause" as their excuse / rallying point...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

That's the way I interpret the signs, Cat. And although it is extremely un-PC to put it this way, I see it playing out as Islamic regimes united against Israel--Muslim vs. Jew.

The disturbing part is that the prophesies speak of Israel standing alone when the Messiah comes. Where will the US be?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hmmm.... possible scenarios?

happens so quickly we can't do anything

we have no mutual defense treaty in place (do we?), so we are not "obligated" to stand with them

they do not ask us for help because of the threat that it could present us

we're too busy being stretched all over the world as the UN's / NATO's main peacekeeping police force or in minor flare-ups that we do not have the resources or logistics to respond

we're handling internal concerns like holding up the Constitution that is hanging by a thread that the Elders of Israel will stand up to protect (hey, had to give you guys that are stockpiling the ammo in your backyard bunkers a nod there... )

we've become so isolationist that we, like Europe, do not want to get dirty by "interfering" in other people's business

We all are lucky enough to have a friend who reveals himself to be an alien and who has a book about how to hitchhike around the galaxy and we all get transported aboard a passing freighter just as the bulldozers start coming through the wall...

One thing to remember, the coming of The Lord will be at a time no one is expecting it... that is why I said I wonder if these events could be precursers (like increased generational hatred in the longer scheme of things) that lead up to the events that precipitate that battle. If you listen to the ilks of Pat Robertson or some of these other televangelists and other evangelical christian preachers, we've got maybe a couple good years left and then it will be time for God to yell out "Okay, that's it, everyone out of the pool!" I don't see or feel that coming from His living prophet though. Only the same, simple and yet firm message of have faith and hope in The Savior, repent and be obedient to the commandments of God.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Are we scripturally an "extension" of Israel? Where will we stand? I imagine that depends on who is in power in the US. Much of the world does stand aligned against Israel.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

TitusTodd wrote:

Are we scripturally an "extension" of Israel? Where will we stand? I imagine that depends on who is in power in the US. Much of the world does stand aligned against Israel.

That's how I see it. Israel started to gather here and this is where the New Jerusalem will be. As members we are counted as part of the house of Israel so that may be why the U.S. isn't really left out on this prophesy as long as the Lord's people are righteous the nation chooses righteousness.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

That is also one possible scenario, of sorts... I remember asking my Dad the very question when I was probably 10 or so... where would the US be at the battle of armageddon? (Of course, I also asked at a dinner party out of the blue once if we were Democrat or Republican...) Would we as America be against Israel or with Israel? He said it was his opinion that there would be a few countries that would somehow stand with them, and hopefully the US would be one of them.

We who have entered into the covenants are indeed of the House of Israel (either literally or adopted in). Remember, the House of Israel is not just of the tribe of Judah. The modern state of Israel is pretty much limited to the tribe of Judah, isn't it? While many of the peoples in the muslim world may have lineage back to Abraham, they don't trace it through Jacob.

An interesting and informative article on the topic of who is Israel and Abrahamic lineage is found at the Church's website under this title

Of the House of Israel

Daniel H. Ludlow, “Of the House of Israel,” Ensign, Jan. 1991, 51

Pt314 · Senior Member

Every single time Israel attacks back, the world media always makes it look like they are the aggressor. I am guessing that they are thinking that maybe they should let themselves be the victim this time, in order to have the rest of the world like them. The problem is that it won't work.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Anyone remember the little thing that took place in Lebanon this past summer?

Hezbollah started flagrant attacks against Israel, and after giving some time (don't remember how long) for the gadiantans to stop and for Lebanon to take control, then they moved in to take care of the situation on their own when it was clear the aggressors wouldn't stop. I was really surprised at how lopsided the news coverage was. Even from Fox. Israel was still made out to be the aggressor, or counter-aggressor, in the "rumor of war" that pummeled Lebanon for how many weeks.

How many of these sort of events are going to be necessary to have a cumulative effect of turning all the nations of the world against Israel? Is that part of the strategy of the gadiantans in that part of the world, as they absolutely love to get the media to portray them as nothing more than "gunmen" trying to defend their homes?

The problem I see is that Israel doesn't really know what to do and they act from a no-win situation attitude. They want peace, but the extreme fringe elements kill off (literally or politically) the doves in their political leadership... but then the hawks get in control and the people decide they don't really want to have a war either and the hawks get ousted because they "bumbled" or were indecisive or went to the peace table...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

Anyone remember the little thing that took place in Lebanon this past summer?

Hezbollah started flagrant attacks against Israel, and after giving some time (don't remember how long) for the gadiantans to stop and for Lebanon to take control, then they moved in to take care of the situation on their own when it was clear the aggressors wouldn't stop. I was really surprised at how lopsided the news coverage was. Even from Fox. Israel was still made out to be the aggressor, or counter-aggressor, in the "rumor of war" that pummeled Lebanon for how many weeks.

And look at Lebenon today. The Hezbos are threatening to overturn the government because they voted to investigate the murder of an old cabinet member by the U.N.. Suddenly other cabinent members have been murdered also destabalizing the already weak government. Gadiantonville?