Girls playing in traditionally male sports

arbilad · Head Chef

Girls playing in traditionally male sports

trooperswife · Member

I am not one who thinks there needs to be equality in all things. If I am sexist against my own gender because of that, I am okay with it.

I agree with all your stated objections, and would just add:

I don't think that recreations/sports generally played by one gender are best served by becoming CoEd. Both sexes need time to bond and share and have relationships without the added dynamic of the opposite gender. People act differently when they are with just their gender, and that is a good thing. Men teach each other about being men, and women teach other about being women.

Certainly we need to have workplaces and civic duties and such things as places where gender is a sidenote to one's ability to fulfill a role--but when it comes to recreation I think both men and women benefit from time separate from one another.

-- Edited by trooperswife at 09:30, 2006-11-06

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

I remember in my ward a while ago a mother was speaking proudly about her son, who's into high school wrestling, who would forfeit a match rather than wrestle a girl. I admire that kid. But is it really fair to him to have to forfeit matches just to maintain the standards he has set for himself?

Well, according to some interpretations of Title IX (I think that is the one), then it is very fair for him to forfeit if he won't give in to social pressure to wrestle with a girl. Because, girls are "entitled" to participate in the same sorts of sports as boys, and if you don't have the equivalent available for girls, they have to be allowed to participate with the boys teams. Funny how that doesn't work the other way around though.

As a former junior high and high school wrestler, I remember we had a saying. Wrestling was what you did with guys and wrasslin' was what guys (of course only the non-members on our team) did with girls. Did I say that?

But, even back then, there was talk of girls being allowed to wrestle, and to the man (or boy as it were) -- including our state contenders -- we all agreed that we would rather forfeit a match rather than be forced to wrestle a girl if some school sent a girl out on the mat. First and foremost, wrestling is a male sport. Period. It is not proper for females to be involved in wrestling. Second, even back in the early to mid eighties, most boys were still taught to be gentlemen to some minimally accepted level. Third, if you wrestled a girl and lost, it would be absolutely devestating to the young man's psyche. Wrestling is as much a mental sport as it is physical, and there is not much of chance a boy would recover from that blow or that he would live down the razzing and teasing other boys would give him. Fourth, there is the very real issue of physical contact that should not be happening, regardless of how tough the girl is.

BYU dropped its wrestling program several years ago (and they had a decent program too) because of the Title IX implications of having to have the same number of women's intercollegiate sports programs as men's programs. You don't get a problem with women wanting to play collegiate football, but wrestling in high school has in many areas turned into the nightmare we feared when we were teens... that there is girls wrestling as well as co-ed wrestling, and a participant in the sport has to abide by the rules of his state's high school athletics organization. There is also a growing movement within collegiate athletics to have women's wrestling, and if you noticed, they have women's wrestling in the olympics now.

Sorry. It is not sexist. It is just wrong. Back in ancient Greece where modern wrestling as a sport started, women were not even allowed to be present at the matches...

Social engineering, you will find it everywhere... even in high school sports...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I once told a fellow priest, who was a wrestler, "Wrestling is so gay." Nearly got beat up... Then again, that's the way I saw it... Now that the gay thing is so infused our culture, a lot of full contact sports among just men, seem kinda creepy.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:

I once told a fellow priest, who was a wrestler, "Wrestling is so gay." Nearly got beat up...

As rightly you should have! Yeah, you don't call young men in high school who wrestle things like "mat fags" or "gay" unless you are willing to back it up with your strength.

Football players were the worst. They talked big, but could never back it up. A bunch of the football players would come out for wrestling every year during pre-season conditioning, but drop out within the two weeks to the point we were left with only real wrestlers, and that was often barely enough to fill the varisty and JV squads between all three grades. 99% of the football jocks just couldn't handle the intensity and level of physical effort involved... we had one of the better football teams in the state too... The wrestling team didn't cut guys either like football did... guys deselected themselves by either not having what it took, breaking the rules (we had one "star" get kicked off the team for drinking), or losing academic eligibility.

palmon · Senior Member

Our 17 year old son plays recreational hockey. Girls have a league, but there is no checking allowed. As a result, occassionally he plays against teams that have a girl or two. These guys are not small and they cheque hard. It bothers me because it conditions them to be rough with girls.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I still remember a time when I was in High School and one of the girls at the table in the cafeteria explained that a man should never hit a woman. I thought, "what kind of lame rule is that?" I didn't have a lot of close contact with girls growing up, just my mom who was tough as hellfire, and I'd never heard of this rule. I told this girl that if she hit me, I would hit her back. This girl, who deserved a good slap, was emphatic--almost hostile. I asked my parents about it later, and they verified it.

I don't think boys learn how to treat girls, and men how to treat women, by tackling them.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So since it is very common knowledge (or at least should be common knowledge) that boys (and ergo men) are not to hit/tackle/etc. girls (and ergo women), is it okay for girls (and ergo women) to hit/tackle/etc. girls (and ergo women) when it becomes necessary for establishing a pecking order? Agree with Ray that boys do not learn how to treat girls in a proper fashion by tackling them.

Or do girls typically refrain from the physical nature (like guys when they establish an internal pecking order) and just utilize the emotional sparring? So, how are girls taught to treat boys in a proper fashion? What is that proper fashion?

Honest questions here, as I have three girls and could kind of use the info as a Dad...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I guess the point of my little anecdote, was that I didn't know that it was common knowledge that one didn't hit a girl, not even in self defense. It made me wonder if this is even something we teach anymore...

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

I guess the point of my little anecdote, was that I didn't know that it was common knowledge that one didn't hit a girl, not even in self defense. It made me wonder if this is even something we teach anymore...

--Ray

I used to think it was wrong to hit a girl in self defense also. I remember my first time sparing in martial arts. I was a white belt who only half my requirements for Orange done so I had a little orange stripe on that white belt. Most people didn't start sparring until orange belt. They put me in the ring with a 14 year old girl that had a green belt. She proceeded to go all kungfu fighting on my butt. Nailed me in the crotch twice which even with a cup still hurt while I just stood there feeling stupid. The instructor stopped the action. After that I learned that if I'm ever attacked by a girl it is ok to defend myself.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ha-ha! Jason got beat up by a girl!

--Ray

PS> (Ray raises the level of conversation yet again)

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

Ha-ha! Jason got beat up by a girl!

--Ray

PS> (Ray raises the level of conversation yet again)

Yea but she was mean and vicious and all of 105lbs!!! Thank goodness for the cup!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, Jason, was that the cup yo Momma took you shoppin' for?

Reading over that little anecdote, I thought how funny it would be if two letters positioned were changed and altering the reference to belt...

I remember my first time sparing in marital arts. I was a newlywed who only half my requirements for veteran married man done so I still felt the discomfort of the wedding band. Most people didn't start sparring until the honeymoon was over. Didn't realize that I had put myself in the ring with an expert at emotional manipulation. She proceeded to get all teary eyed on me. Made me feel like a total oaf twice while I just stood there feeling stupid. No instructor to stop the action. After that I learned that if I'm ever attacked by a girl it is ok to defend myself.

P.S. I'm now in the doghouse with Mrs. Cat Herder for saying that!

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Thankfully, I was able to buy the cup myself at the karate school!

Those changes were hillarious!

palmon · Senior Member

At my son's hockey game last night, I told his girlfriend and her mother that in this league, fights just did not happen. No sooner than I said that, there was an exchange in front of our teams goal. Apparently, one player (my son) pushed the opposing player out of the goal. He started to come after MS. When MS noticed the ref, he just stood there and the OP started to skate away. Out comes another player and plummels him. Which started others to throw a few punches. At some point, a player hit the refs nose with his helmet (on) and possibly broke the nose. The fight is finally broken up.

MEANWHILE, in front of the goal, MS is looking down when someone punches him in the face guard. He starts to fight back when he looks up and sees that it is - yes - A GIRL.
He stops is swing, puts out his index finger and tells you, "You! Chill!".

After the game, the OT's coach and our manager get into each other's face. And yes, our manager is a girl too.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

How refreshing in our society that women can now be just as big of boors as men.

Not only CAN they be, but 98% of the media encourages them to be Xena Warrior Princess with a potty mouth and a BAAAAAAD attitude. It's almost as if they are expected to act badly.

I've got to say, I don't have a problem with girls competing in traditionally male sports. But if they step into the ring, or onto the ice rink, or the field or whatever, they shouldn't expect any special privileges. I don't think they do.

I did, have a problem the other night at our high school's inter-squad wrestle offs. We have a girl on our team who is very good. She was wrestling for the varsity spot, but lost. She wrestled well, however. Everyone on the team respects her dedication. She's earned everything she's gotten (i.e., no forfeits because "I don't want to wrestle a girl").

Here's what bugged me: The Cheerleaders.

For all the other matches, the cheering was just basically generic cheering, not favoring either opponent. In the girls match, they openly cheered for the girl. What? The boy didn't work out hard? Didn't learn the moves? Didn't deserve a little support? Whatever, he won so I guess he really didn't need cheerleader support, but it kind of was bad form, IMHO.

-- Edited by Hoss Cartwright at 12:12, 2006-12-09