Ghosts, Spirits, Communicating, Sightings, etc.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Ghosts, Spirits, Communicating, Sightings, etc.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I tend to think along the following lines on things like this...

First, do these sort of things occur... yes and no. Certainly, a large number of them are hoaxes created by slight of hand and con artists. Certainly, some of them really are encounters with spirits. We know from the gospel that 1/3 of the host of heaven was cast out of The Father's presence for rebellion. They were cast down here to the earth, and actively seek to destroy each of us so that we will not merit returning to our Father's presence. They have been around for a long time, and can certainly use whatever powers they have to imitate and draw people away.

Second, anything that does not cause one to believe in and follow The Savior and His power as found in the fulness of the restored Gospel has as it's source the adversary, Satan. See Moroni chapter 10. I don't have the exact citations at hand, but there are specific rules by which true messengers of The Lord must abide, whether the being is a pre-mortality spirit, a post-mortality spirit not yet resurrected, or a translated or resurrected being.

So, the litmus test would be do any of these supernatural / paranormal events (or the mediums like John Edward) persuade one to believe in and faith in Christ or to draw one away from Him?

As to the sharing of any experiences within this realm, it is probably not a prudent thing to discuss openly... whether it is heavenly experience or exposure to something from the adversary. Kind of a pearls before swine thing... we should treasure it up in our heart and only share with those we're moved to by The Holy Ghost.

arbilad · Head Chef

The method for discovering the nature of a spirit, as found in the Doctrine and Covenants:
Ask to shake hands. A pre-mortal or pre-resurrection spirit will refuse, knowing that he has no body and therefore cannot shake hands with you. An angel (a resurrected person with a body again) will shake hands with you, and you will feel that they have an actual hand. An evil spirit will agree to shake hands with you, but you will not feel a hand.
I've often thought that would be very creepy, to try to shake hands and feel nothing. Another good reason to stay worthy, so that if such a situation ever comes up, I can easily dismiss the evil spirit with priesthood power.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

I tend to think along the following lines on things like this...

First, do these sort of things occur... yes and no. Certainly, a large number of them are hoaxes created by slight of hand and con artists. Certainly, some of them really are encounters with spirits. We know from the gospel that 1/3 of the host of heaven was cast out of The Father's presence for rebellion. They were cast down here to the earth, and actively seek to destroy each of us so that we will not merit returning to our Father's presence. They have been around for a long time, and can certainly use whatever powers they have to imitate and draw people away.

Second, anything that does not cause one to believe in and follow The Savior and His power as found in the fulness of the restored Gospel has as it's source the adversary, Satan. See Moroni chapter 10. I don't have the exact citations at hand, but there are specific rules by which true messengers of The Lord must abide, whether the being is a pre-mortality spirit, a post-mortality spirit not yet resurrected, or a translated or resurrected being.

So, the litmus test would be do any of these supernatural / paranormal events (or the mediums like John Edward) persuade one to believe in and faith in Christ or to draw one away from Him?

That's the million dollar question. There are some things like ouiji boards and mediums that are obviously trying to draw us away from him. Seeing some soldiers marching on a field or a woman in period dress walking down a stairway? I don't know? Does it serve a purpose or are we just seeing something? Obviously the 1/3 host is doing their business in this realm for the express purpose of trying to work towards our eternal destruction. As far as the handshake test goes, that's great if you have a messenger. What if you are just seeing something supernatural?

What I wonder is if a spirit not a part of the 1/3 host can use it's own free agency to breach the veil? That is something I have wondered. How separate are we really from those who might be in spirit prison?

arbilad · Head Chef

I wish I had the quotes available to hand, but I seem to remember someone on my mission sending me quotes that posession, for instance, can be detected by looking in the eye, because that is the window to the soul. Perhaps if you saw the eyes of a spirit that would be a good indication?
That's a really good question about whether those who have passed on, or those who are waiting to be born, can choose to pass through the veil. I tend to think that they need permission. But I could be wrong.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

salesortonscom wrote:

What I wonder is if a spirit not a part of the 1/3 host can use it's own free agency to breach the veil? That is something I have wondered. How separate are we really from those who might be in spirit prison?

I doubt that those in spirit prison are granted the ability to "breech the veil", as you put it. What purpose would it serve for someone who has died after not living righteously to come back and "haunt"? To try and atone for some of the wrongs they did wrong ala Dickens' A Christmas Carol? To try and get others to change their ways? No, I don't think so. Remember the parable about Lazarus and the rich man?

Whereas, those that are in paradise, I think they are allowed to "breech the veil" when there is a specific purpose and reason to. Otherwise, my guess would be that the righteous are far too busy to just be doing it as their "p-day activity"

I think part of the Father's plan includes a definite and distinct line drawn between the various spheres of existence on the earth that only the righteous are allowed to cross over when it is in accordance with His will. It is part of the test of faith, and miracles (like visitations from ministering angels... which do happen...) are a sign to the righteous and a result of righteousness and always occur according to the economy and after the established orderliness of The Father's house.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Good points Cat. I guess I'll have to ask when I cross over. Perhaps they are not the ones breaching the veil, perhaps we are. We know in some cases from scripture where there were those whose faith was so strong (Brother of Jared Types) that the Lord could not stop them from seeing Him.

I just wonder, if it's not the 1/3 host doing mischief, and it's not a messenger permitted by Heavenly Father, then what is it that people are seeing sometimes. What purpose does it serve? In the end, there is a scientific answer for all of it, even if we don't understand the answers or the science yet in mortality. Obviously there are certain rules that must be followed by spirit beings. The handshake rule for example is a rule that appears to be a condition. If the 1/3 spirits know about this rule why would they not just refuse to shake hands? Maybe they cannot refuse as a condition of being cast out.

It would seem to me that the forces of the adversary would be doing there best to not provide a postitive paranormal experience. Thus there would be lies, deceit, trickery, ect as a means of leading us away from the Savior. Any person that sees a spirit for second and then it dissapears has only a few choices in my mind. 1. I made it up 2. I've been smoking too much weed 3. I'm being tricked on purpose by my neighbor, brother, etc. 3. I really saw what I saw. If we go with number 3 then the person then must accept that there is life beyond mortality even if they do not understand the full meaning. Thus the teachings of the athiests will no longer have a hold upon that person. They must then begin to look beyond this existence which may lead them to learning about who we are, why we are here, where we are going, and what we can become. Certainly that would be the exact opposite of what the adversary would have us do.

I was talking to a guy once that I worked with who originally came from Mexico about a story I had heard from some other friends of mine about La Llorona. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona ) His eyes got really wide and he told me about seeing her himself and other various supernatural things he had seen. He was pretty sincere and visibly affected by the memory. After talking with him I had to conclude that he either saw what he claims he saw or he honestly believes that he saw what he saw. Stories of similar "women in white" along roadsides, rivers, etc, have been told for generations by people who actually believe they saw it, many pillars of the community.

The scientist/historian in me wants to investigate and find out what is going on in some of these stories. What I'm mainly interested is in any Church leader's quotes or direction given by the brethren for these things.

arbilad · Head Chef

As far as atheists go, I don't think that they suffer a "trial of faith" so to speak when they see supernatural phenomenon. The human mind is tremendously powerful at rationalization. There are several possible explanations for your devout atheist. For instance, it could be a simple hallucination. Or it could be trickery. I don't think it's a problem for many true believing atheists.
Besides, people can be surprisingly contrary in their beliefs. I remember overhearing a conversation between two people discussing miracles. They didn't believe that miracles or spiritual manifestations happened, except for evil ones. They had both experienced manifestations of evil power. But they dismissed out of hand the type of miracles that Jesus did as impossible.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The adversary doesn't need to create a crisis of faith to accomplish his designs even amongst those who are not athiest or agnostic.

If all he accomplishes is to raise a question, a doubt, a line of reasoning that leads away from The Savior, even if it seems that his deception seems to be partially good, then he has accomplished his goal, right?

"3. I really saw what I saw." Well, without a proper context in which to frame it in light of the Gospel, then this can lead to all kinds of "forbidden paths" upon which a person can get lost and never make it to the Tree of Life, let alone to even reach the iron rod. Crop circles, UFO's, etc. As interesting and compelling as these things may seem, do they do anything to add oil to one's lamp? My opinion, probably not. They are distractions often created by charletans, and I think Satan takes full advantage of it...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Very interesting gentleman. I realize that all of this stuff has no real bearing on why we are here. Interesting though how seeing something like this can make your hair stand on end! Thanks for your thoughts!

-- Edited by salesortonscom at 17:11, 2006-10-30

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Going on memory here: I recall that Truman Madsen, in his lectures on Joseph Smith, quoted the prophet saying, "This generation shall have the doctrine of spirit communication, and it won't be from a good source either." I'll see if I can find the exact verbiage, but having Joseph Smith acknowledge it as a doctrine and then saying it wasn't coming from God kinda creeps me out.

-- Edited by Roper at 18:31, 2006-10-30

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Interesting Roper! I can't wait to see that one.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The heading to D&C 41 is kind of interesting in relation to this topic, maybe, kinda, sorta?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

The heading to D&C 41 is kind of interesting in relation to this topic, maybe, kinda, sorta?

Interesting, I wonder if the false spirits were actually spirits or a term used to describe ideas that were not from our Savior as to how the church should be run.

On a side note: One of my co-workers won a night's stay in an old B&B that is supposedly haunted. While she did not experience any screaming, moaning, or visitations during the night others in the hotel reported strange sounds. On a couple of her pictures on her digital camera some strange orbs appear in the photos. Also, the brand new batteries in the camera suddenly went completely dead. A second set also went completely dead. She had to go buy a third set of batteries. While we might be able to chalk this up to bad batteries, I have read and heard from guys that study hauntings that sudden battery drains like this are not unusual in areas where ghosts frequent. My co-worker obviously had a good time though she did have quite a few drinks in order to go to sleep that night. Could alcohol be related to ghost sightings? Probably with most of the sighting of La llorona there was a lot of alcohol involved. Alien abductions and sightings seem to be more frequent among those who are drinking also!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

salesortonscom wrote:

Could alcohol be related to ghost sightings? Probably with most of the sighting of La llorona there was a lot of alcohol involved. Alien abductions and sightings seem to be more frequent among those who are drinking also!

Well, it is certainly alcohol... there is absolutely no documented evidence to show that tomacolatte consumption has a direct correlation to that {dumping report titled 'Tomacolatte Use Increases Incidents of Alien Anal Probes and Sightings of Jimmy Hendrix' into shredder...}

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

As I have assured our shareholders in this year's annual report. There is no evidence of any ill effects from using Tomacolatte. Any and all reports of alien probings or Amazon women on the moon are not the result of Tomacolatte.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I don't talk a lot about possession, having seen it on my mission within the first few months, and then later having helped an Elder after the fact, I just don't think it's a laughing matter, and try to leave well enough alone. I do sometimes wonder how much of what we do, and face, and have control over in our lives is due to our Spirit or other spirits on the attack, or the cleansing spirit of God. It would be interesting to see things the way Joseph Smith could see them, but I think there's a good reason for why we can't.

I've had friends who've played around with matters of the occult, and they almost all come away afraid, or having freaked themselves out... I don't think it's all their imagination, though that too is an interesting possibility... if we in ourselves possess powers that we don't understand and if we open ourselves up to deception and manipulation when we go down those paths...

What I can say is that the Power of the Priesthood is sufficient to overcome these forces, and we should do all we can to revere the Lord and give deference to God over any curiosity we may have with the weird and unexplained devilry that goes on in the world... There are always going to be things we can't explain, but Ironically most of these mysteries, to me have very clear and interesting explanations from the Gospel perspective. The trick is keeping that Spiritual gift of discernment, and being unshaken, I think...

Everything is corruptible. I think many of the objects commonly associated with witchcraft, like crystals and wands, and such, are almost counterfeits of objects that prophets used, like the Urim and Thummim, Gazelem's stone that shines in darkness, the stones that the Brother of Jared used to light the barges, the Liahona, even Laban's Sword and the Brass plates, or the Book of Mormon itself, Moses's staff, the bronze serpent, the Arc and the Covenant, Elijiah's Mantle, are all physical objects that were used in the furthering of God's plan on the earth--physical assists to the kingdom.

In a way the Temple is the most powerful of these objects, for it is a Holy Place of physical dimensions that cannot be hidden, and perhaps the devil has his "haunted houses" though I don't like to ascribe more power to the devil (again through ample discussion) than he already exhibits in my life, because, quite frankly he's already buggered up my life plenty. And my grandpa always told me never to trifle with such things...

:( So I'm just gonna walk away now... :)

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 16:11, 2006-11-06

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Be assured Ray, I was not taking any of it lightly... (other than Jason's suggestion some of what people claim may be related to alcohol consumption )

I don't talk about the things I experienced on my mission for the very reason it is not something to be broadcast.