I think America's greatest flaw in the world, is the tendency we have to buy first, ask questions later. I honestly don't mind that we purchase cheaper goods from other countries, and I'm grateful we live in a time when the whole world is benefited by the largess of our nation, but when we purchase goods from countries that do not provide opportunities for their citizens, we inadvertantly are paying to prop up dictators, tyrants and murderous regimes, all for the sake of the bottomline. Further we are left open to criticism and scapegoating by nations who see our wealth and claim something funny's going on, when they pocket the profits they could be using to better their own people's ingenuity.
Thoughts? Am I completely off base here?
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I think yer right ray but unfortunately, very few countries manufacture decent goods anymore. When was the last time you saw a working textile mill in the U.S or a T-Shirt factory?
Ray, I think your question hints at a larger one: When and how should government impose morality on an amoral market? We do it with environmental laws, child labor laws, etc. In your particular example, I guess it depends on the prevalent political priorities (I like alliteration, too.) With our collective attention focused on the upcoming election, Iraq, our new "good fences make good neighbors" policy along our southern border, and the Foley fallout, too few people care right now that our economic policies enable the kinds of situations you described.
So for some, it comes down to personal choice. I have a friend who won't shop at Wal Mart because of the way stores bulldoze into communities and strangle smaller businesses. He won't buy anything made in China because of the human rights abuses. He has a whole list (that grows every day, it seems) of capitalistic endeavors he won't support. Good for him! I don't have the energy or time to be so thorough.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I have no idea what is being talked about... does it have something to do with that John Ritter movie where he was the President of the US and was selling off bits and pieces of the country and the country's assetts like an auctioneer at a flea market / garage sale?
Don't have the time to read the posts right now... I just wanted to say I thought the title of this thread was a great example of the use of consenance.
Now, I dare anyone to say the title five times fast!
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Ray, I assume you are thinking of China as the chief exemplar of the phenomenon you describe. Right? I think that we are taking a risk in being so economically integrated with the Chinese--doing so much business with them, both in terms of us purchasing their goods and in terms of them buying our bonds. There is a risk that they could use that economic tie as leverage against us. But I think they need us more than we need them, and that a trade war, while disruptive to the US economy, would hurt them more.
I also think that economic integration encourages countries to liberalize in other ways. I hope to see China become more open to political liberalization as they continue to do business with the US. I hope that this also happens in Russia.
As far as morality--I share your concern. For my part, I hate that we are so dependent on foreign oil, especially from the Middle East. Our petrodollars go towards funding terrorism and Islamic extremism. But I have to have gas for my car! And I am only one consumer. However, I do think it should be the policy of the US guvment to explore North American oil sources, and improve our refining capacity. Just another reason to VOTE REPUBLICAN!!
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I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.
shiz wrote: For my part, I hate that we are so dependent on foreign oil, especially from the Middle East. Our petrodollars go towards funding terrorism and Islamic extremism.
For my part, I hope gasoline goes to eight dollars per gallon because that's the only thing that will get us to seriously consider alternatives. Plus, it might encourage more people to commute by bicycle, giving our population a huge boost in health and fitness while creating a demand for more bike paths
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
That's about what the UK, Germany, and Japan pay for gasoline (and yes, I realize that part of that figure results in a weaker US dollar for conversion right now) but still, proportionally, gasoline is 2 to 3 times more expensive in those countries that have similar standards of living.
I've lived in two of those countries (Germany and Japan.) They have excellent public transportation and are much more efficient in their consumption of fuel.
Something to think about: Over the past twenty years, we have invested billions of dollars (and many times that amount in other resources) trying to guarantee our continued access to cheap Persian Gulf oil. Had we spent that money and those resources developing public transit and alternatives fuels, our dependence on foreign oil would be much lass than it is.
Our investments in the Persian Gulf are sunk costs. We should stop basing our economic and energy policies on "but we've already invested so much in the region." We should start looking at least a few years down the road and make the sacrifices now for the generations who follow.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I agree with Roper. Except that I really like being able to drive to choir practice on Sundays, and going to the temple once a week, and living in a decent home, and commuting to work each day.
Sigh.
THe tradeoffs are so... well... painful. :)
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
That's about what the UK, Germany, and Japan pay for gasoline (and yes, I realize that part of that figure results in a weaker US dollar for conversion right now) but still, proportionally, gasoline is 2 to 3 times more expensive in those countries that have similar standards of living.
I've lived in two of those countries (Germany and Japan.) They have excellent public transportation and are much more efficient in their consumption of fuel.
Something to think about: Over the past twenty years, we have invested billions of dollars (and many times that amount in other resources) trying to guarantee our continued access to cheap Persian Gulf oil. Had we spent that money and those resources developing public transit and alternatives fuels, our dependence on foreign oil would be much lass than it is.
Our investments in the Persian Gulf are sunk costs. We should stop basing our economic and energy policies on "but we've already invested so much in the region." We should start looking at least a few years down the road and make the sacrifices now for the generations who follow.
It is true, that is what they pay. But unemployment is double what it is in the US. Their per capita GDP is roughly the same as Arkansas here in the US. In Europe their lower to middle middle class live roughly equally to the poor in the US as far as square footage and disposable income are concerned. Forget about owning a car, its too expensive for most of us in Europe.
Europe does many things that are different from the US, it doesn't mean that we would necessarily embrace such a lifestyle.
As to the question of investing "billions". We didn't invest it, we purchased gasoline from individuals that invested it to provide even cheaper gas for us. It is not a "centralized" system in which we decide how to invest. We make those choices on an individual basis, the problem is that oil is and continues to be cheap, cheaper than any other source.
By the way, most of our electricity comes from domestic coal production, not oil, it is usually the artificial systems that add to the cost, ie, local taxes, cars that no one will by (hybrids being an example).
As to the public transportation, we can perhaps coerce people to take public transportation, and have money losing propositions like the Eurorail system or the one in Japan (neither is self sustaining and need constant new inflows of tax dollars). I love the public transportation systems there, but I also know the taxes on consumption (ie gas) and other systems are ultimately very very expensive for the individual. Disposable income is very low and owning a house (versus an apartment) is a distant dream that most in Germany and France don't have. I have experienced both systems of government and I find the US system infinitely superior.
By the way, France is a huge importer of oil from Iran (and formerly Iraq), their support of both regimes in the UN speaks volumes of how their public transportation system has freed them from the shackles of the middle east.
When oil naturally and permenantly rises above (whoops missed that) 70/ barrell permenantly, other investments will become more viable and the US which has a relatively unfettered market will grow accordingly. I would like to see ethanol used as a good stop gap, unfortunately the democratic party refuses to reduce the 50% tariff on ethanol imports into the US and the republicans don't consider it a major issue to fight them on it. The reason for the 50% is to ensure pork barrel spending on midwestern farmers.
Europe does many things that are different from the US, it doesn't mean that we would necessarily embrace such a lifestyle.
AMEN TO THAT!!
Also don't forget that a huge portion of the gas prices in Europe are government taxes. I knew someone who worked for IBM in France for a little while, and he said they drove a natural gas vehicle. Since natural gas wasn't taxed nearly as much, it was actually cheaper than gas.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
While Jeff's point about Europe importing from the middle east is interesting, it is also precisely the sort of thing I'm referring to, in terms of the dangers of giving money to the wrong people.
In some ways, I think the old imperialist days would be better, just because there would be more accountability on the part of the country ruling the other country, improving the infrastructure for all the people, not just a few bullies.
But what has happened now... where a few very powerful brutal fiends rule the lives of so many, blame the west for their obvious moral flaws, all the while living immorally themselves, and then robbing them to build dangerous weapons and kill their own people... it's not a good situation...
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
