Kinder, gentler drill sergeants?

arbilad · Head Chef

Kinder, gentler drill sergeants?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I saw a similar article yesterday. Guess that means they can't call the raw recruits maggots anymore...

Hmmm. I guess Hollywood has succeeded again as this is definitely the long term effect of such classic films as Major Paine and TV shows like Gomer Pyle, USMC...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I was always afraid of joining the armed services because of the stories my dad would tell about the abusive and profane training and nature of many of the commanding officers. It is one of the real reasons I used to justify steering clear of military service.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Yeah, it was basically the way my Dad was able to steer me clear of it when I was thinking of Army ROTC for after my mission... he said I would have a much harder time with complying to authority figures there if I had a hard time with listening to authority figures on my mission. My Dad was drafted after his mission and went through OCS and was commissioned as an officer. He had been retired from the military for a long time before I was born, so I never saw that aspect of his life. Besides, I had always looked at being in the Army from a John Wayne glory type of thing and not the reality of what that sort of life was. And yet, my two best friends from my ward growing up went on receive commissions as military officers via Air Force and Navy ROTC after their missions. Go figure. One has become a bishop, and the other I don't know where he is as our families lost touch over a decade ago. I've got a lot of respect for the folks in uniform, and an even greater respect for those who are able to still live the gospel despite the atmosphere.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 13:31, 2006-10-11

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

My BIL just joined the Marines -- he's in basic training right now. He said, " The drill instructors are a little harsh sometime, but only when you don't do what they say."

Doesn't sound so bad.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I've got a lot of respect for the folks in uniform, and an even greater respect for those who are able to still live the gospel despite the atmosphere.

I agree. There are times when I wonder how my life would be different had I gone that path. But overall I'm glad to have avoided such things.

--Ray

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

My father wore the uniform and lived the standards proscribed by his religion and philosophy.

He was a hedonist.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The military has already toned down the drill instructors. They used to be able to beat recruits and the military looked the other way. They could also use a lot of profanity that would curl your hair and other dirty language. They could berate a recruit in ways that you would not imagine but now that is all gone. I thought that was a good thing but I wonder if now it is getting to be too much. Some think that if they boot camp less intense they can attract more recruits. More like camp counsellor than drill instructor.

Most of my ward is made up of Marines and Navy. Good folks for the most part that made it through training just fine.

crazymom5 · Senior Member

My oldest ds has been in the Army since he was 18, he's 25 now. He went through basic for Infantry at Ft Benning. He said the drill sargeants were tough, but he expected them to be. The sargeants are there to toughen you up and to seperate the men from the boys. Ds also chose the infantry because he knew it was the toughest basic and they don't train with women, which he felt lowered the standards. Before he left to go into the MPs after 3 yrs in the infantry, he was able to get his EIB and he did the blood pin! AHHH, this mom was/is one proud momma.

SMILE · Veteran Member

Personally I was a little dissapointed with how soft the Drill Instructors were when I went through Paris Island in 1998. If they are supposed to get softer than that, I pity the members of the armed forces when they actually face combat. They will not be prepared. I don't think Drill Instructors should have the freedom to beat and assult the recruits, at least not too bad. Yet the trend has gone too far towards coddeling the very people we expect to defend us from attack, and fight our battles.

arbilad · Head Chef

Yeah, I imagine that if you're in a foxhole, with bullets whizzing overhead or artillery going off nearby, nobody's going to stop and help you deal with your feelings, or coddle you.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

SMILE wrote:

Personally I was a little dissapointed with how soft the Drill Instructors were when I went through Paris Island in 1998. If they are supposed to get softer than that, I pity the members of the armed forces when they actually face combat. They will not be prepared. I don't think Drill Instructors should have the freedom to beat and assult the recruits, at least not too bad. Yet the trend has gone too far towards coddeling the very people we expect to defend us from attack, and fight our battles.

I thought Parris Island was Marines, not Army... (sorry, had another friend from my ward growing up who ended up retiring as a Marine Captain after being passed over for Major twice... ;) )

An honest question, what exactly did you expect? Since it was not as abusive as you perhaps expected, can you quantify how that made you or your fellow marines softer and less fit as soldiers after you finished basic training?

I imagine, since I am not fortunate enough to have served and honestly don't know anything about military life and training methods, that the powers that be determined a greater need in training existed to focus more on building effective team work and thinking abilities across the board from the get go instead of spending extraordinary time, resources, and effort into the stereotypical "breaking" of raw recruits spirits. Why? Because the military service is 100% volunteer these days. No one is there that did not choose to be there, and so those that will wash out will end up washing themselves out, so why waste the time and expense at "breaking" the spirits of folks who don't necessarily need their spirit broken?

If I could imagine myself in a foxhole or otherwise under fire, I'm going to be more concerned about whether or not I can trust the people I'm with to get me out of a bad situation and/or to do their jobs instead of depending whether they are capable of waiting for 100% top down direction before doing their job.

arbilad · Head Chef

I have no problem with soldiers able to think on their own. I think that's all to the good. But in a battle situation, you frequently need instant obedience. What if they sergeant, for instance, gets told on the radio that there's a missile inbound for the foxhole he and his squad are in? For the good of his squad, they should instantly obey his order to bail out of the foxhole, even if it's otherwise a very dangerous thing to do.
The standard nowadays, unfortunately, is for young men to question proper authority. In a war, there frequently isn't time to explain reasons.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Yeah, that is my point... since those that serve in the military are doing it voluntarily, they typically don't need to have the concept of obeying their leader drilled into them to the same extent as someone who is drafted in against their will. Perhaps a similar concept when trying to get children to do chores and work around the house. How compliant are they when they are forced to do it as opposed to their being a party to the decision to do the chores? Did that make sense? Ultimately, the same thing is being done, but the means and incentives are slightly different.

Any of you retired military folk care to comment? (Arbi, if you're retired military, my apologies, I just assumed you weren't...)

arbilad · Head Chef

I'm not retired military.
I guess my point is that, in my opinion, obedience must be drilled in, because sometimes there is just no time to explain. I want the same thing from my kids. It's an interesting question whether they chose to be my kids or not. But I want to, for instance, be able to have them instantly stop if I yell "stop" so that they don't run in front of a truck. When there's time, I don't mind explaining reasons. In the army there are many situations where you can die if you decide to do things your own way. They are there voluntarily, but they still have to be obedient.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Cat Herder wrote:

Yeah, that is my point... since those that serve in the military are doing it voluntarily, they typically don't need to have the concept of obeying their leader drilled into them to the same extent as someone who is drafted in against their will. Perhaps a similar concept when trying to get children to do chores and work around the house. How compliant are they when they are forced to do it as opposed to their being a party to the decision to do the chores? Did that make sense? Ultimately, the same thing is being done, but the means and incentives are slightly different.

Any of you retired military folk care to comment? (Arbi, if you're retired military, my apologies, I just assumed you weren't...)

Oh yes they do need the concept of obeying their military. Volunteering does not mean you understand the concept of the military, especially when you see those nifty recruiting commercials in which everyone is a superman, but no one shows the pain of boot in becoming such a superman. Remember the movie "Stripes"? While the entire movie was a fiasco, the ideas that both had going into the military were rather typical of volunteers.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

So far, I've enjoyed reading this thread without participating. But since Cat extended the invitation...

During my career in the Air Force, I served as an enlisted member for the first five years. After I finished college, I applied and was selected for a comission, so I spent the remainder of my time as an officer. So I've been through both basic training (boot camp) and OCS (Officer Candidate School.) Here are my thoughts:

Basic training has several purposes. One purpose is the teaching of basic combat skills--effective use and maintenance of a combat weapon (M-16), basic fighting skills, basic survival skills. Another purpose is standardization--establishing a baseline of fitness, and indoctrination through perfectly performing simple routines (maintaining a uniform, wall locker, etc.) that will establish a base of perfectly executing tasks, such as maintaining an aircraft engine according to procedures. Mission success (and commanders) depend on this commitment to standard procedures. Another purpose is to instill a sense of absolute loyalty--Dawson in "A Few Good Men" articulated the concept well when he summed up his defense with "Unit, Corps, God, country." Another purpose is to overload trainees with too many expectations so that they will learn to prioritize in the face of stress and learn to handle failure and the inevitable consequences appropriately.

Each of the services decides how it will run basic training, based on the goals and values of the service. The Air Force needs more highly skilled technicians than front-line combatants, so it's probably the least "harsh" when it comes to treatment of the trainees. My experience is that most of basic training is psychological, and that Air Force TIs (training instructors) are already the kindest and gentlest of the four services :)

Officer training was much more demanding, imho. More on that later.

-- Edited by Roper at 10:49, 2006-10-16

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Arbilad, true, we want our children to be obedient instantly in many situations. It is important. And that sort of obedience is drilled into them. But, do we automatically resort to the lowest common denominator of parental training of children in instilling that kind of discipline, or can we do it through less drastic means?

Jeff, yes, I understand what you mean that no one, unless they grew up in a military setting, knows what the reality of that life is until they are in it. In my case, that is pretty much how my Dad convinced me that maybe my personality was not cut out for that sort of rigorous experience, despite a strong "romantic" notion of it my whole teen years. There is a difference between the pie in the sky look and the sort of enforced discipline that is not only expected but necessary. I'm just saying that it may be that experts and top level brass have concluded that in a 100% volunteer force, less time and effort is needed at breaking recruits spirits who choose to serve before the level of minimum discipline is instilled, or at least in comparison to previous times when the bulk of the military force was conscripted through a draft.

That is why it would be interesting to hear from retired military folk on this. If we have any, those who may have served during a time when the draft was still in place as well as those who served post draft. What do you men and women that actually went through either sort of boot camp / drill sergeant think?

edit to add: Thanks for responding Roper. You obviously posted while I was putting together my post here in response to the other guys. Any other of you retired military folk like to comment?

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 09:52, 2006-10-17