Men and Brethren, what shall we do?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Men and Brethren, what shall we do?

lineuponline · Veteran Member

Bunker is NOT the answer. The answer is in the Book of Mormon, given 5 times by example.

Lehi

Nephi in 2 Nephi 5:5-6

King Benjamin's father in Omni 1:12-13

Alma the Elder

the brother of Jared

No *place* will be safe, but a Zion people who are both prepared and directed by the Spirit will always be safe. Consider John Taylor's vision of the Last Days:

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=86

arbilad · Head Chef

I think we continue to live our lives as righteously and as normally as we can. As Line upon Line pointed out, no place will be safe. The only safety is in the Lord. We do good works. We plan for the future. We plant cherry trees.
The alternative is to stop living life and hide in the mountains in your Quonset hut. That doesn't sound too interesting to me. By all means be as prepared as you can for calamity. But don't let future calamity detract from the current day.
I want to start a bakery, for instance. I'm not going to be able to do it in the near future. But I still plan on it, even though the world seems to me like a bunch of tinder waiting for a match. Obviously, in a collapse of civilization, a bakery won't do me much good. But even if the whole world were absorbed by nuclear fire tomorrow, I think it's still been beneficial to me to plan a bakery.

Tyro · Veteran Member

Since we don't know how long or short the time will be until things get so bad that we are just surviving, it seems like we have to go ahead and live life as fully as possible. Otherwise, we could waste an awful lot of time and miss out on a lot of growth and opportunities.

You have a good point, rayb, about how living as righteously as we can and influencing/helping others to do the same could make a difference in how the end times play out. There are so many unknowns....

lineuponline · Veteran Member

In short, 3 things: live right, be prepared, prepare others. 2 Nephi 32:5. The end.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

line: So you think we'll just move and the problems will go away? When seas are supposed to be melting and massive earthquakes are going off, as you're fond of throwing out there, there really doesn't seem like there's much point in moving.

This is the problem I have with a lot of doomsday chat. It is speculation and scary, when we are commanded not to let our hearts be troubled. Well, if you spend all your time dwelling on the doomsday, how can you not be troubled?

Do you honestly tell yourself that because you have cans of wheat under your bed that you'll somehow not be devoured by the apocalyptic dooms you foresee?

Do you not understand how paralyzing much of this fearmongering is? WHen you see great and terrible things in far off places, imo, it is time to share the gospel all the more with our neighbors.

And I don't mean the doom and gloom gospel and our idea of the last days, but the actual GOOD NEWS of the Gospel. The HOPE of the Gospel. If the love of men is waxing cold, let's wax it warm! Let's be positive! Up Beat! Let's look forward to the day when the lamb and the lion can lie down together... etc... etc... The scriptures say "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that publish peace." not "your doom"... I'm not suggesting all is well in zion, but let's use OUR TIME and the innovations of OUR ERA and do all we can with it.

This evening I drove home listening to a Gospel Rock radio station. I know alot of that music is dreadful, but I admire the way that God-fearing people have adopted the genre that was generally about rebellion, sex, drugs and rock and roll, and have turned it into something (at least somewhat) uplifting!

I get no doom and gloom from Pres. Hinckley's messages at conference. He's always hopeful and loving and optimistic about the future, despite the challenges. I heard an interesting idea just recently about a friend of mine who moved from higher education into the workforce. He said that Pres. Hinckley and church leaders in education are anxiously attempting to figure out ways to effectively teach college level education over the internet. Because the church has these unused buildings all over the world, and they are only used on Sundays and some weeknights or early mornings for youth activity.

A man working to expand the educational opportunities for underprivileged members all over the world, doesn't sound like a man preparing for the ultimate demise of humanity. Maybe we just have our priorities screwed up?

I mean I think signs are great, but other than doing the basics, I intend to do the everyday stuff, like getting my home teaching done, learning patience and virtues. Finding ways to cope with today's technology, RATHER THAN BEING AFRAID OF IT, and using it for the betterment of others around me. I think that goes a lot farther than warning people about an imaginary conspiracy with imaginary marks of the imaginary beast. (I'm not saying these things won't come someday, but to try to put meaning to them now, in the time when we are not in them, imo, is only asking oneself to be deceived.)

Of course that's my opinion...

--Ray

PS> Oh yeah, and if there's anyone out there feeling bored and living in Utah, and things just aren't spicy enough for you, and you're seeing all the hypocrisy there, and you can't seem to feel important and need this doom stuff... here's a plea... Move into the missionfield where you're needed! I don't know that I'll ever get back there, though Utah's a breath of fresh air by comparison... to me... but I feel needed here... as imperfect as I may be... and you know... I bet you'd be needed too... We need more members willing to go out into the world and share a positive example of what true CHARITY is...

-- Edited by rayb at 23:27, 2006-09-06

arbilad · Head Chef

Do you honestly tell yourself that because you have cans of wheat under your bed that you'll somehow not be devoured by the apocalyptic dooms you foresee?

Actually, yes, I expect the Lord to save me if I do that and the other things he's commanded (home teaching, being a good father, etc.)

I think that there's a difference between fearmongering and knowing what's going on. There's so much good work to be done that we should all be actively engaged in doing the Lord's work, regardless of whether the Second Coming is tomorrow or a thousand years from now.
But, at the same time, it would be foolish to not be aware of what's going on. Part of the reason for that, I think, is motivation for all of us to do our individual parts to make the world a more righteous place.
One of the biggest dangers that the Saints face is complacency. We see it all the time. "Someone" will get the missionary work done. "Someone" will get the hometeaching done. "Someone" will mow the widow's lawn, etc. We think that all is well in Zion. But the enormity of the work that faces us is so huge, that all of us could probably be doing more than we are. I see an awareness of the dire situation of the world merely as a motivating factor to go out and get the work done.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Motivating folks by fear just seems a temporary stop-gap to me. Further it often causes resentment and members can lose focus.

How do you teach saints to cultivate charity when they're afraid? I think they're two diametrically opposed concepts.

--Ray

lineuponline · Veteran Member

rayb wrote:

How do you teach saints to cultivate charity when they're afraid? I think they're two diametrically opposed concepts.

I know what you mean. In fact this was a discussion on another board - how there's quite a difference between the spirit of warning (D&C 88:81) and the spirit of fear (2 Timothy 1:7). Fear and faith are practically opposites, yet the spirit of warning is a form of love, care, and concern for our fellow man.

lineuponline · Veteran Member

rayb wrote:

line: So you think we'll just move and the problems will go away? When seas are supposed to be melting and massive earthquakes are going off, as you're fond of throwing out there, there really doesn't seem like there's much point in moving.

In each of the five Book of Mormon examples, they all had a Zionistic group (minus Laman & Lemuel) and were led by the Spirit on where to travel and when. They were also as prepared as they could possibly be, as the Lord provided the rest. John Taylor's vision also indicates that people were travelling with backpacks.

This is the problem I have with a lot of doomsday chat. It is speculation and scary, when we are commanded not to let our hearts be troubled. Well, if you spend all your time dwelling on the doomsday, how can you not be troubled?

Speculation? Scary? Having a problem of this topic is a problem. It stems from the natural man to disbelieve or forget something because one does not want to believe it, and may even lead some to declare prophecies as speculation. Those prepared are neither troubled nor afraid but look eagerly when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed. Almost ALL the Doctrine and Covenants contains doomsday chat. It's the 3rd most common topic next to Christ and missionary work.

Do you honestly tell yourself that because you have cans of wheat under your bed that you'll somehow not be devoured by the apocalyptic dooms you foresee?

The Lord has commanded us to prepare ourselves. He expects us to do our part, THEN the Lord provides.

Do you not understand how paralyzing much of this fearmongering is? WHen you see great and terrible things in far off places, imo, it is time to share the gospel all the more with our neighbors.

And I don't mean the doom and gloom gospel and our idea of the last days, but the actual GOOD NEWS of the Gospel. The HOPE of the Gospel. If the love of men is waxing cold, let's wax it warm! Let's be positive! Up Beat! Let's look forward to the day when the lamb and the lion can lie down together... etc... etc... The scriptures say "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that publish peace." not "your doom"... I'm not suggesting all is well in zion, but let's use OUR TIME and the innovations of OUR ERA and do all we can with it.

This Relief Society mentality is exactly what Nephi (2 Nephi 28:21,24,25) and Ezra Taft Benson warned about. What advisor omits the warnings for fear those reports may be too troubling? What kind of parent refuses to inform of the dangers in the world? Must the Lord alter his Holy Word to be "pleasing" to the ears of man? Since when has Revelations become politically incorrect?

Verily I say, if Ephraim desireth a Disney Bubble, the Lord will give Ephraim a Disney Bubble, and then shall the prophecies be fulfilled spoken by Isaiah the Prophet in the 28th and 29th chapters.

This evening I drove home listening to a Gospel Rock radio station. I know alot of that music is dreadful, but I admire the way that God-fearing people have adopted the genre that was generally about rebellion, sex, drugs and rock and roll, and have turned it into something (at least somewhat) uplifting!

I get no doom and gloom from Pres. Hinckley's messages at conference. He's always hopeful and loving and optimistic about the future, despite the challenges. I heard an interesting idea just recently about a friend of mine who moved from higher education into the workforce. He said that Pres. Hinckley and church leaders in education are anxiously attempting to figure out ways to effectively teach college level education over the internet. Because the church has these unused buildings all over the world, and they are only used on Sundays and some weeknights or early mornings for youth activity.

A man working to expand the educational opportunities for underprivileged members all over the world, doesn't sound like a man preparing for the ultimate demise of humanity. Maybe we just have our priorities screwed up?

President Hinckley warns us on almost all occasions. Sometimes we need to listen for them, and I know it takes listening more than once for me to pick up on them. Both spiritual warnings and temporal, such as getting out of debt in 1998 and 2005 (warning of future famine), food storage First Presidency message outlining year-supply as bare minimum per member, the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy in October 2001 (Acts 2:17-18), etc.

I mean I think signs are great, but other than doing the basics, I intend to do the everyday stuff, like getting my home teaching done, learning patience and virtues. Finding ways to cope with today's technology, RATHER THAN BEING AFRAID OF IT, and using it for the betterment of others around me. I think that goes a lot farther than warning people about an imaginary conspiracy with imaginary marks of the imaginary beast. (I'm not saying these things won't come someday, but to try to put meaning to them now, in the time when we are not in them, imo, is only asking oneself to be deceived.)

Many conspiracy theories are imaginary, but one is not, and it is now. As we know in Ether 8:25, this conspiracy fact will be a group that seeks to conquer the world, and will succeed in doing so (and subsequently bring to pass Armageddon). This is not opinion, this is prophecy coming from Moroni, Ezra Taft Benson, and others.

"I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world." - Ezra Taft Benson, "I Testify" October 1988 General Conference.

PS> Oh yeah, and if there's anyone out there feeling bored and living in Utah, and things just aren't spicy enough for you, and you're seeing all the hypocrisy there, and you can't seem to feel important and need this doom stuff... here's a plea... Move into the missionfield where you're needed! I don't know that I'll ever get back there, though Utah's a breath of fresh air by comparison... to me... but I feel needed here... as imperfect as I may be... and you know... I bet you'd be needed too... We need more members willing to go out into the world and share a positive example of what true CHARITY is...

There is a great err if one assumes the two are mutually exclusive.

ethos · Member

a quote from billy the kid in "young guns" might not be the best place to use for many things, but the general idea is worth relating:

"You remember the stories John use to tell us about the the three chinamen playing Fantan? This guy runs up to them and says, "Hey, the world's coming to an end!" and the first one says, "Well, I best go to the mission and pray," and the second one says, "Well, hell, I'm gonna go and buy me a case of Mezcal and six (euphemism for prostitutes)," and the third one says "Well, I'm gonna finish the game." I shall finish the game, Doc."

you can see the different mindsets: 1. find religion (fast!), 2. commit more sins (because who cares?), or 3. finish the game.

I like to think that me and most of my lds counterparts will finish the game. that we will be prayerful, charitable, obedient and hardworking to the bitter end. that our attitudes will reflect a faith and hope in Christ at the hard times and the easy times. yes, we should be informed, but more importantly, we should be anxiously engaged, and smiling.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

This may be more Relief Society thinking but...

D&C 6:34 Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail.

--Ray

PS> Thanks Nnerraw... :)

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, of course we have no need to fear if the Lord's on our side. Think of it this way: even if the most crazy, most outlandish conspiracy theories are true, the worst they can do to you still is take away your life. If you stay faithful, whatever they do to you in this life will only be a moment in the eternities.
Still, I think that there's an awful lot to be happy about in this life. For instance, I'm really glad that they've made conference available on the internet. That makes it so much easier to stay in touch with what the Lord would have us know.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ah but maybe there's a secret combination that has written a computer program to interrupt your internet feed and replace the audio stream with subliminal hypnotic messages that say, " You're gay! Do drugs! Leave your family! Be selfish! Eat fatty foods! Drink Coke! Drink Dr. Pepper! Vote Democrat!"

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

Ah but maybe there's a secret combination that has written a computer program to interrupt your internet feed and replace the audio stream with subliminal hypnotic messages that say, " You're gay! Do drugs! Leave your family! Be selfish! Eat fatty foods! Drink Coke! Drink Dr. Pepper! Vote Democrat!"

--Ray

Ah, but we know that even if they do that, you'll have the power to resist. We've been told that we won't be tempted above that which we are able. Which is one reason why you, Ray, will never be given the opportunity to insert subliminal messages.

Subliminal messages Ray would insert if he were head of a secret conspiracy:

You must start a grilled cheese sandwich cult
Pink is a perfectly appropriate men's suit color for Sacrament Meeting
Send a dollar to the first five people on the list, all of whom happen to be Ray, then put your own name on the list in the vain hope that Ray won't edit it out
You must all go to JK Rowling's house, break into her safe, and find the last chapter where we find out what became of Harry Potter
You will now no longer refer to toilets as a "john", but as a "john kerry"

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I love the messages!

Rocinante · Member

Ah, but we know that even if they do that, you'll have the power to resist. We've been told that we won't be tempted above that which we are able. Which is one reason why you, Ray, will never be given the opportunity to insert subliminal messages.

Interesting. Isn't he the one the developed the new Bountiful header?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You do not know the power of the Rayside. Join with him, and he shall rule the galaxy as Ray, and hmmm... well, supreme troglodyte king... It is your density... George McFly has foreseen it!

He has already infiltrated power supplies and is giving that silly bunny with the drum a run for the money via his Ray-o-vac brand ... And, this after having had direct influence on the earth for eons in the form of those shiney warm bright things that come from the star at the center of the solar system called sun-Rays ... And he is in the water in the form of sting-rays and manta-rays. He has even been found in math and cartesian coordinates in the form of a ray, and let us not forget he is omnipresent where ever there is data storage for IT in the form of disk ar-rays ...

All hail Ray and the Cult of Subliminal Grilled Cheese!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Thankyou chiefmost disciple of Ray. Now get back to the griller and grill up some more sandwiches...

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

"We’re advising our clients to put everything they’ve got into canned foods and shotguns.”- The Brain Gremlin

Seriously though, I don't worry about it plus the bunker is too expensive. Maybe I'm just jaded but I really don't pay much attention to dooms dayers anymore. Bad things are going to happen but bad things have always happened in my lifetime. They will continue to happen. I can prepare spiritually and temporally for them but I cannot do much to stop them. I always did like that quote from Young Guns that was cited earlier. Live your life in such a way that if the world would end tomorrow you wouldn't have any regrets. If our life is in order all we need to do is finish the game. The race of life is not won by those who are the fastest, the richest, the strongest, the smartest, or the best looking, it is won by those who dare to finish it. The vast majority of the people who live through the natural dissasters cited by some will survive to rebuild and go on. As bad as the destruction from a Hurricane is, most people survive and are able to rebuild their lives. Property can be replaced or rebuilt. As long as my family and I can be together forever then the rest is just window dressing.

Jason

Oh, please Ray, can you refrain from referring to areas outside of Utah/Idaho as The Mission Field. It is a bad term that I have heard too many members use as an excuse, insult, or disparaging remark. It isn't nice and it's not accurate. I know most people don't mean anything by it but it does get a little tiring after a while. Some folks I know get a little perturbed when they read or hear comments like that. It gives the impression that somehow they are looked at as second class members living in horribly wicked places while the more enlightened sit on the hilltops of Zion looking down on the wretched. Thanks!

-- Edited by salesortonscom at 12:03, 2006-09-15