It is funny how it wasn't a problem three years ago but is a problem now.  Is it manipulation, or simply awareness?  An interesting question, but not one that can easily be addressed here (conspiracy theorists have at it). 

I think it is simply awareness.  9/11 made us look at who was getting into our country and how.  It just brought back to the surface that we have not been doing much to keep illegals out.  The issue snowballed from there.

Eventually the issue would have come back to the fore front as more got concerned about the cost of illegal immigration.  The issue never really went away, just faded back to the background after half-hearted attempts were made to solve the issue back in the 80's.

I support better enforcement of current immigration laws, perhaps some modification to them and a guest worker program - in that order.

After watching a program on the the Mexican-American War I sometimes wonder if we would have been better off retaining control of Mexico at that time (I don't know how possible that would have been).

TitusTodd wrote:

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It is funny how it wasn't a problem three years ago but is a problem now.  Is it manipulation, or simply awareness?  An interesting question, but not one that can easily be addressed here (conspiracy theorists have at it). 

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It was a problem three years ago.  It was a problem 10 years ago.  In California we had Proposition 187 which denied all but emergency/esential public services from illegal immigrants, eliminated afirmative action, etc.  This was back in the early to mid 90s.  There were protests, flag burnings, charges or racism etc.  The initiative passed overwhelmingly in the state of California believe it or not with some of the biggest support coming from legal immigrants who did things the right way.  Unfortunately, the opposition took things to court and got most of it overturned.  Then after the new governor came in he didn't continue to fight for the law.  So nothing new, I think 9-11 did bring things to the forefront again but this fight has been going on for some time.

salesortonscom wrote:

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TitusTodd wrote:

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It is funny how it wasn't a problem three years ago but is a problem now.  Is it manipulation, or simply awareness?  An interesting question, but not one that can easily be addressed here (conspiracy theorists have at it). 

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It was a problem three years ago.  It was a problem 10 years ago.  In California we had Proposition 187 which denied all but emergency/esential public services from illegal immigrants, eliminated afirmative action, etc.  This was back in the early to mid 90s.  There were protests, flag burnings, charges or racism etc.  The initiative passed overwhelmingly in the state of California believe it or not with some of the biggest support coming from legal immigrants who did things the right way.  Unfortunately, the opposition took things to court and got most of it overturned.  Then after the new governor came in he didn't continue to fight for the law.  So nothing new, I think 9-11 did bring things to the forefront again but this fight has been going on for some time.

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I don't think it was 9-11, I actually think it was the large protests recently when many of the leaders in the group waved Mexican flags, and demanded to be US citizens.  I think the jarring demand of citizenship with the obvious loyalty to a foriegn power acted as a catalyst for many many US citizens.  Some of these groups overplayed their hand.

rayb wrote:

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And had Benedict Arnold not failed in Quebec, we'd also be controlling Canada. 

--Ray

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Poor general Arnold.  I feel sorry for the guy.  Maligned and mistreated by his own government and never really trusted by the British.  Of course he did try taking Quebec, the one part of Canada we really didn't want anyway!

Thankfully we got a small chunk of Canada via the final settlement of The Pig War. http://www.nps.gov/archive/sajh/Pig_War_new.htm

BTW, Ray seems to be worried about the human aspect of illegal immigration, that is, that each of these people, whether they're here legally or not, are children of our Heavenly Father. I went to a farm today where they allow you to pick your own vegetables for $15. We probably got around 30 pounds of vegetables each. Anyway, a hispanic person drove us around. I presumed he was illegal, but I have no way of knowing. He was nice, he answered questions as he could with his limited English, and he was very helpful. In all, he seems like a nice person.
But my philosphy is still "Bloom where you're planted". There is enough opportunity in most countries to make it if you try hard. Coming here illegally means, by definition, that you have broken a law. To me, that doesn't say anything good about someone's character. How would you feel about your Elder's quorum teacher if you knew that he shot deer off season in national forests? If you don't like the law, work to have it changed.
I'm not against hispanics coming here illegally because I don't like them. I've found that, by and large, I like them. I'm against their coming here for the many other reasons I've stated.

Hi there.  I usually don't engage in the debate over illegal immigration, because, well, because I'm right, and I don't care about anyone else.    So I haven't read this thread, I'm just here to post a long rant from the non-LDS guy we bought a horse from once.  He was an Air Force pilot that crashed several decades ago, and has been on disability ever since, so this email is actually quite friendly and lighthearted, relative to how he is on other days. 

So, he rambles a bit, and isn't the most charitable, and I don't necessarily agree or support every take he has on things, but I thought it was an interesting story to share.

> From: [The guy we bought a horse from once]
> To: HSR's wife
> Subject: ER & IIs
> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 22:02:56 -0600
>
> Illegal Immigrants -
>
> I just wanted to pass along my recent (Saturday
> night) exposure to the weird & wonderful world of
> the ER on a Saturday night - apparently the best
> time to catch "the show". To start out, I had been
> having problems with pain in my back, and my
> morphine computer wasn't doing it for me. Even with
> doubling the morphine, I was in pain, and then
> suddenly Saturday night it got so bad I couldn't
> move or sit or lie or stand on my head without
> intense burning pain. After consultation with my
> doctor - we headed for Colorado Springs and the ER
> at Memorial Hospital. I had to go to Memorial,
> instead of the Air Force Academy because of my
> computer implant, which the USAF didn't have the
> equipment to deal with. We got there about 11PM, and
> it was fairly quiet. Since I was not bleeding all
> over the floor - I got pegged as "low priority" and
> set off into a corner, which, despite the pain, was
> a good vantage point to watch the show. They did, at
> least, give me a massive injection of dilaudid (more
> morphine) which dulled the pain, but made my legs
> pretty much useless, and promised to contact my
> doctor ASAP. So I sat up for the opening act.
>
> Let me tell you that the stories and e-mails you've
> all seen lately about how illegal immigrants (let me
> shorten that to IIs for now) flood our ERs for free
> medical care is true. I'd say 70 % this night were
> illegal immigrant and didn't have health insurance
> nor a working knowledge of English. Of course the
> hospital is required to have a translator on duty
> (at my and your cost) and she was the busiest person
> in the ER. I'm not sure what part of their cultures
> require this, but all of the IIs feel a need to
> bring the entire extended family there. For every
> "patient" there was generally 6 to 10 extra people
> that came with them. Signs - in English - everywhere
> repeated the order "ONLY TWO visitors per patient" -
> didn't count - apparently if you don't speak the
> language the rules don't apply to you, even if it is
> explained, at length, and often, in your own
> language. Besides the poor overworked translator -
> there were never less that 6 cops there all night (I
> was there from 11 PM to 10AM the next morning for my
> 15 minutes of "care"). They spent most of the time
> breaking up family squabbles among the visitors and
> pushing them, physically, out to the waiting room.
> It astounds me that even though they can't pay for
> anything - they all, right down to the 2 year olds,
> have their own cell phones - 'family plan' don't ya
> know. So the visitors in the ER were on their cell
> phones to the family members in the waiting room, so
> they could continue the family squabbles. Here's
> something else I don't get: why do people assume
> that the louder you talk into your cell phone, the
> farther the transmission will go?
>
> Let me point out another item you'd been seeing
> lately, even in the media: IIs do, in fact, use the
> ER for not only the family doctor, but for the most
> routine of ills. Yet another thing I don't
> understand: why would you take the entire family,
> all the babies too, of course, at 2 or 3 AM to the
> ER, so they can look at Uncle Juan's infected
> toenail that he's had for the last 3 months!? For
> some reason, the majority of the patients were
> brought to the ER for unknown injuries. Here's how
> it plays: Translator & Dr. (T&D): "why is he here
> tonight" IIs: "he fell off the garage roof" (this
> seems to be an ethnic thing - for several of them
> all had this affliction) T&D: "is he hurt?" IIs: "I
> think so? T&D: "can you ask him what's wrong?" IIs:
> "I can't" T&D: "why not?" IIs: "he's drunk and I
> can't understand him" (why you would assume then
> that a translator would then understand him is
> beyond me).
>
> Let's leave drunk Uncle Juan and see what else is
> going on: A young mother from Honduras is in the bed
> next to us. The baby (born in the US and so is now a
> privileged citizen) has a fever. He has a high fever
> and a blood shows high white cells - an infection
> somewhere. The doc orders a urine test, which has to
> be drawn by catheter. The nurse arrives to do the
> deed and the baby starts to scream, really scream,
> bring down the walls of Jerirco scream. Seems the
> little guy is not circumcised and when they push
> back the foreskin they find the massive infection.
> Now the mother starts screaming because the baby has
> a deformed penis. The nurse follows a line of
> questions that reveal: the mother doesn't know what
> circumcision is; no, she doesn't clean him there,
> she didn't know it rolled back (how'd this young
> girl have 2 babies??). Now she starts screaming
> again because now the deformed penis boy is her
> fault because she didn't know he was supposed to be
> washed "down there". Ah yes, cultures of the world,
> see how they enrich us?
>
> I get another shot of dilaudid - no we haven't
> had time yet to actually talk to your doctor - just
> wait a few more hours. Wife heads for home for a
> few winks and to feed the herds.
>
> Two more Uncle Juans have been garage diving. Three
> older Hispanic ladies come in with one unresponsive
> woman. They put her on a Gurney facing me. She lays,
> there, and doesn't blink. Ever. I'm thinking "oh
> great, she's dead - at least pull the sheet over her
> so she isn't staring at me". Turns out she's ODed on
> something the sister's have whipped up at home -
> must be an old family recipe. Some guy (yelling
> Spanish) loses it and it takes six police officers
> to get him on the ground - drugs, ya think? The
> ambulance crew arrives - I see this same crew 7
> times during the night - I've gotten to be on first
> names basis with them. "Routine night" they say.
>
> For a change of pace a young white girl arrives,
> early 20s, carrying a teddy bear and crying. She has
> a spider bite that has abscessed. Big time. (Again,
> why are you coming in the middle of the fricking
> night for something you've had for weeks?). The
> "tennis ball" on her elbow has to be lanced. She
> cries. They actually lance it, she cries. It stinks,
> she cries. She's told they have to pack it, she
> cries. She's told SHE will have to change the
> packing and bandage - yep, she cries. As weird this
> is, when docs and nurses leave for a few minutes,
> she had deep conversations with the teddy bear, . .
> . . and she cries. Thankfully this part of the show
> ends and she leaves.
>
> I get another shot of dilaudid - no we haven't
> had time yet to actually talk to your doctor - just
> wait a few more hours. I finally demand x-rays.
> Nothing broken, probably tore muscles on a bone spur
> in my pelvis.
>
> Over the next few hours there are two white couple
> with actual emergencies - a middle age woman with
> bowel problem and a young woman with severe post
> surgery bleeding. Neither of which arrived with the
> entire family in tow - maybe we Americans have lost
> the "family touch". The rest are either drugs or
> alchohol (the only cross-culturally affictions I
> can see), and fight or self inflected wounds of one
> sort or another - mostly connected to- yep - drugs.
>
> My wonderful Dr arrives 9 AM - he just got
> the page - he was down the hall - connects me to the
> computer and resets my drug paramiters and modifies
> my morphine mix. Go home - don't lift anything for a
> week, sleep for half of that time. Call me direct if
> there's a problem. Then he asks "Why didn't they
> just call me last night????"
>
> As I wait for my wife to pick me up, a helicopter
> arrives with the night's only true life threatening
> patients - victims of a car crash - I didn't wait
> around to find out if drugs or alcohol were involved -
> I already know what the chances were. Guess how I'm
> voting in November . . . .
>

What many of you may not know is that Garage Drinking and Diving is a legitimate sport in the Hispanic Community.  Generally people Garage Dive after a night of celebration for one of the three Mexican Indepence Days, birth of a new baby, or because the Raiders are on T.V.

I am really upset that someone would judge others because they choose to engage in Garage Diving.  How many of you wettos do rock climbing, scuba diving, hunting, or full contact paper/rock/scissors.

You should also all be ashamed for having such poor family relations that no one wants to go with you to the hospital.  You may believe that families are forever but as long as you are not in the same room with them.  For shame.  If you really loved your families then you would be willing to fight for their honor.  How many of you wouldn't need an emergency room after 18 rounds with Jose Cuervo?

So please, don't be so quick to judge what you don't understand or don't truly appreciate.

Hispanics will comprise ¼ of the US workforce in 2 generations.

Hispanics are joining the entrepenurial class. One out of 10 small businesses will be Hispanic-owned by 2007.

Mexican workers in the US sent home $13 billion last year, more than total direct foreign investment.

Hispanics are now generally considered a “must win” voting block in national elections.

 

These things are true, when they can vote and are here legally.

In fact, its not about hispanics, that is a red herring, its about how to handle immigration that hispanics tend to be, for the US (other nations have the same issues, Spain with Morroccans, China with North Koreans, Mexico with Guatemalans, et al), it is an immigration issue in general. 

Consider the fact that a "coyote" charges between $3,000 and $5,000 per person, so we know someone is "bribed" to break the law (either a government bureaucrat or an independent).  The issue is whether or not we are accepting a sufficient amount or whether or not the numbers are out of line with the realities.  We have around 4 - 5% unemployment, that means that we are nearly at 100% unemployment (up to 3% is transitionary unemployment, ie between jobs moving to a new job, and so on).  High employment almost automatically leads to the erosion of income through inflation (more dollars chasing less people).

My point?

1-The borders do indeed need to be strengthened.

2-Immigration adjustment or temporary immigration adjustment needs to be applied.  Temporary as in work visas or temporary work visas as well as increased inclusion.

Present illegal immigrants are tertiary in the sense the damage is done and they are here.  A process must be put together in order to process them (either into the nation, our out of the nation), the method must be arbitrary to the best interest of the nation.

The immigration issue will go away in about 20 years anyway, Mexico's population is aging much more rapidly than the US's.