Illegal Immigration

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Illegal Immigration

arbilad · Head Chef

This is a huge security issue, in my opinion. Also, we have missionaries and strong church organizations in those countries. We long ago stopped the practice of moving everyone to Salt Lake to be with the main body of the church, and it has long been the official policy of the church that people should build Zion in their own countries.
On my mission in Ukraine many people asked us if the church would help them move to the US. We were instructed to tell them that the church would not help, although there were measures that they could have taken to do so. Does the Lord love His children in Mexico more that He loves His children in Ukraine? If not, why is it necessary for Mexicans to move to the US to get the gospel, but not for Ukrainians?

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

A couple of months ago a member of my ward who is from Mexico (she's been here for 20 years, and I believe she is legal) gave a talk in church. She spoke of coming to the U.S. because she wanted to be in Zion. She said that now she realizes that Zion is not just a place, and that Zion could be found in Mexico too.

But I'll bet she has no plans to go back...

Fregramis · Senior Member

One threat is the health issue. How many Mexican citizens are immunized against mumps, measles, TB? When people insinuate racism on this issue, it displays an ignorance on the subject which is dangerous. This is not about race, it's about borders. Why do kids see redlines on maps, for show?

Is it fair to have two standards for immigration: legal and "amnesty"? Of course not. But the cheap labor companies are selling out our children's future. Karl Rove wants to edge out Democrats with a new Hispanic "majority". And bleeding hearts everywhere are sympathizing with the invaders. Face it, we're screwed people.

Patrick Buchanan is right on the nail with his new book, I'm afraid. I think 3 Nephi 20:15-16 and Mormon 5:24 is on the verge of fulfillment.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

"why is it necessary for Mexicans to move to the US to get the gospel, but not for Ukrainians?" A search on the "North American Union" and the "SPP" should explain why it is so important for some people to get as many Mexicans into the USA and legalize them. I recently suggested to a lot of folks in our ward and stake, many of whom favour the illegals' case, that they all kick in toward hiring any old rusty freighter that I could sail to Ireland, collect all the unemployed men that I could chase ot of the pubs and their families, and sail them to Boston and NYC where they'd blend in very nicely. Apparently the 12th Article of Faith does not apply to illegals from Latin America.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Didn't you already make that point in your first post?

Melissa · Veteran Member

I'm all for building a fence. A big one. It's riddiculous what is happening on our borders. I'm all for legal immigration. No problem there. But when these people are coming over, not with the intent to become part of our society, not meaning to ever learn the language, just basically spilling their country over into ours, that's an invasion and it's high time someone did something about it.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

While I'd like to see more control on the border, and I've been up and down this issue, and agree with a lot of the concerns folks have, I do get concerned with the entitlement mentality that many conservatives have in regards to employment rights, and the apparent hypocrisy with which they will defend things like Walmart--though they purchase huge quantities of goods from China, a country that oppresses its people far worse than Mexico.

I also cannot help, as a mormon, to have kind feelings for many of these people from mexico, for their heritage may very well be from father Lehi. I think we should do all within our power to welcome those who come here, encourage them to do all they can to be legal citizens. I know some folks call it amnesty, but I think many of the current administrations attempts to legitimize folks who came here illegally, are decent and worth considering, and if it is "amnesty" then we have the right to make such exceptions.

I think it's wrong to keep these people from the American Dream. Especially if we cannot get Mexico to create a middleclass and open itself to more free enterprise. We are all children of God. We were fortunate enough to be born in this country, and we should do our best to share the values of this country before they're obliterated by the cold hard media-driven godless commercialism that threatens to envelop us all.

--Ray

Spotted Horse · Veteran Member

No one is trying to keep Mexicans from the American Dream, only asking them to go about it legally, as people from other nations do.

Melissa · Veteran Member

This morning I was upset as I read this article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51746

The Mexican flag was being flown at an American post office. People were protesting, holding signs calling this a "stolen continent." and "Illegal European Invaders Go Back to Europe."

These are not people looking for a way to live the American dream. They are invading our country in a hostile way and our government is letting them. Why? Makes me want to pull my hair out!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I refuse to believe that this is the desire of the majority of folks who come into this country. The more we dig in our heels and refuse to encourage these people to become legal, the more this sort of thing will be commonplace. And why shouldn't it? We need to stop thinking in terms of "us and them"...

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, and a fervent believer in the Book of Mormon, I have difficulty reconciling our current immigration laws... they weren't always the way they are now, so why should we believe that they are immutable now? What does it mean to be American, if we turn our backs on how we got to be who we were?

That said, I also don't approve of "la raza" crap, or turning America in to Mexico. I think we should work towards integration. I do think those who enter our country illegally ought to have opportunities, if they can demonstrate that they've been contributing to it, to become legal. Perhaps they should pay a fine of some sort, to make up for breaking the laws, but I don't think it is reasonable or hospitable to declare open war against illegal immigrants as some demogogues have done...

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Does the Lord love His children in Mexico more that He loves His children in Ukraine? If not, why is it necessary for Mexicans to move to the US to get the gospel, but not for Ukrainians? I so agree with this. I have no animosity towards those who wish to come to our land as immigrants so that they can become a part of the great American experiment and be free from oppression. But, they need to come legally, and there should be a limit to the amount of "bleeding" of the economy and wealth that then ends up going back to other lands. Disincent people from coming to siphon and leech for a period of time (even if they are "contributing" to the economy in the process as proponents claim) and incent them to stay and integrate.

With all due respect to those who really believe the idea that Arbilad brings up, but I personally think it is a red herring to themselves so that they can ignore an issue that is hard and won't just go away by ignoring it. As a rule, we're told to build up Zion where we are at, in our native lands. Just like members in the US are not counciled to "gather" to Utah or any other designated spot besides the Stakes of Zion, members in foreign countries are not really supposed to be "gathering" to the US. So, is it wrong then to expect most people will be taught the gospel in their native land? And, unless I'm wrong, every Latin American nation has an ample LDS Church presence and has missions and missionaries. Sure there are individual exceptions, but let's not confuse the need to be open to exceptions with prophetic council...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm not sure the US Economy is a compelling religious argument.

Melissa · Veteran Member

Ray, you said:

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, and a fervent believer in the Book of Mormon, I have difficulty reconciling our current immigration laws... they weren't always the way they are now, so why should we believe that they are immutable now? What does it mean to be American, if we turn our backs on how we got to be who we were?

Would you please elaborate? I'm not sure I get your meaning here, and I would like to.

Also, I don't believe it's necessarily the intent of the majority of people who are entering our country, but I believe it's the intention of enough that it's a major problem.

Again, I have nothing against Mexicans, or others immigrating. I have nothing against Mexicans becoming Americans and sharing in the blessings this land has to offer. One of my close friends fits that category. I do have a problem, however, with the reconquistas and those who disregard our nations laws and seem to be crossing the borders at an alarming rate.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Melissa wrote:

Ray, you said:

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, and a fervent believer in the Book of Mormon, I have difficulty reconciling our current immigration laws... they weren't always the way they are now, so why should we believe that they are immutable now? What does it mean to be American, if we turn our backs on how we got to be who we were?

Would you please elaborate? I'm not sure I get your meaning here, and I would like to.

Oh bother. Now I'm being required to back up my feelings with facts... See this is where I tend to fall apart in the argument. :)

Can I just say "no"?

That lundbaek fellow posted a big long post on scriptures of the last days. About how the Lamanites would accept the Gospel and then go through the corrupt Gentiles like lions among sheep. I have long kinda thought that part of that seems to be occurring here in this regard.

I'm a little queasy about advocating some actions that will only antagonize people, especially children of Israel. God fights for his people. Further, Christ didn't qualify the charity he praised in his parables to those who were legal residents. We don't hear a parable that goes, "I was hungry and a legal citizen and ye gave me food. I was naked and a legal citizen and you clothed me. I was without shelter and a legal alien and let me in." Neither did King Benjamin say we should put conditions upon our charity to beggars. We can't say "The man brought upon his own suffering, cuz he crossed the border illegally."

We should be more willing to give, and to lift our neighbors as well as ourselves. Does "Love Thy Neighbor as thyself" have a condition on it, that says, "as long as they legally entered your country."

I think we should support laws that assist our neighbors in dealing in a legal and forthright manner. Instead of building in traps to ensnare a certain percentage of our population, we should find ways to encourage them to work within the system of laws.

And maybe it's gonna cost us a bit more. But suppose one day, the Prophet says, "America has become a cesspit of filth. Our children are dying spiritually everyday and the powers of Satan are so great that all ye who love the Lord must up and flee to Mexico," would you do it? WOuld you expect the Mexicans to welcome us if for some reason we were the most vocal adversaries of their own children fleeing oppression and exploitation?

Again, I have nothing against Mexicans, or others immigrating. I have nothing against Mexicans becoming Americans and sharing in the blessings this land has to offer. One of my close friends fits that category. I do have a problem, however, with the reconquistas and those who disregard our nations laws and seem to be crossing the borders at an alarming rate.

I think by sharing more success stories and focusing on the elements of what makes people better and stronger and more integrated we can change the opinion of many folks who are feeling threatened by believing that we're going to take away their children, or deport them, and break up their families, and all that. I think reconquistas feed on this sort of thing.

Further I agree with you that the reconquistas are wrong. I think they're as wrong as say the Islamic Jihadists, or any group that segregates people by racial characteristics.

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, if I ever lose my job, can I depend upon you to support me with your credit cards, a 2nd mortgage on your house, etc? Of course not. Of course we should extend help. But only to the limit of your abilities. All over the border states hospitals are going out of business, for instance, because of the vast numbers of illegal immigrants receiving free care.
It's kind of like air conditioning; if you leave the doors and windows open to extend the benefits of airconditioning to your neighbors who don't have it, then they don't really benefit from it and your cooling is vastly less. It's the same way with borders. Open borders are a very real security threat. Unlimited ingress of illegal immigrants is a tremendous drain on our economy.
Just like it's not realistic for you to support me on your credit cards, it's not realistic to expect that we can take care of everyone who comes over. The immigration system is an attempt to control how quickly they come over so as not to plunge our economy into chaos.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

No, but I do have a spare room that is currently empty and if you would like, you and your family can move in until you get a chance to get back on your feet.

When I lost my job, many members of our ward offered the same thing. It was very uplifting. I have heard it suggested by critics of liberals that one of the problems they have is that they tend to think of money as a limited resource, that there are only a finite amount of wealth available, and that's why they tend to tax the rich more than the poor, cuz they're trying to redistribute it... yet a lot of the talk I hear about illegal immigration falls into this very same fallacy.

Or if we love our neighbors, too much, we might just run out of love for our families...

I will readily admit my heart is not governed by economic laws and maybe I'll never be uberwealthy, but I adhere to the principle of tithing, that if I give what little I have, I will have enough for my own needs, through the grace of God...

And I don't know why medical costs are so high, but I don't blame illegal aliens entirely, though. I also blame trial lawyers and a lot of regulation and red tape... and for profit HMOs... which make it appear that you can get quality healthcare without paying for it, when it's always been the case that quality healthcare costs money.

--Ray

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Just for the record...I live in a border state, about 1 1/2 - 2 hours from the border. I see tons of problems. And yet, somehow, I still lean toward ray's opinion. (I never thought I'd type that.

)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

arbilad · Head Chef

Money and jobs are not a limited resource. Given time, we could absorb all of Mexico. But trying to do it at a rate that is too high is folly. For instance, I believe that someday I can become rich. But if I spend like I'm rich right now I'll never get there.
Also, what's wrong with helping them in place? Mexico is a country with great natural resources and a rich cultural tradition. Their government may be the pits, but people have overcome worse. I like the BYU program that teaches them advanced farming techniques for small plots of land.
I'm not against immigrants. My wife is one. But there's nothing wrong with having a controlled method of immigration.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

And I agree with you, Arb. I just don't think we're at the saturation point. For one thing, I like the idea that our farms can at least stay in business, something that migrant workers have really helps facilitate. I think it's important that America have some capacity to feed its own people, rather than import all goods from other places.

If we encourage those who come here, to work and put in their best effort, these folks who actually raise families, they will want even better for their children. Rather than embracing entitlements, it would be possible to adopt this issue, in a sensible and reasonable set of policies that encouraged free enterprise and self-sufficiency.

I agree with the church's perpetual education fund, and things like that. I think it's great. I also like how the church encourages us all to give our all for Zion... which smacks of socialism to many folk... but that's a different topic...

Here's another thought in a different vein...

What's better? Importing lots of highly skilled, well educated workers who are here on a temporary basis, or importing low-educated hard working folk who have no intent of staying in the country?

--Ray

lineuponline · Veteran Member

rayb wrote:

I'm not sure the US Economy is a compelling religious argument.

What about getting out of debt?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

We could always start a new thread about deficit spending... Though I don't think illegal immigration is what causes this... if anything our deficit spending funds programs which are appealing to everyone, including the illegals, and it's a little hypocritical to get annoyed with them, when there are regular everyday citizens that exploit the same programs... Many of these migrant laborers, at least work pretty hard.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Many of these migrant laborers, at least work pretty hard. No doubt there. Isn't it funny how annoying little things like that (and being Christlike) can cloud the real issue of law enforcement and border security when it comes to illegal immigration. I hate it when that happens...

Spotted Horse · Veteran Member

lineuponline wrote:

What about getting out of debt?

Hey, that's my job! I'm doing it as fast as I can, but somehow the number of people getting themselves into debt seems to be climbing faster than I can get 'em outta debt.

Help!!

-- Edited by Spotted Horse at 21:26, 2006-08-30

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Glenn Beck had somebody on his show this morning from the Dallas area. Had some pretty radical views on what should happen to enforce legal immigration. I didn't catch the name or the guy's website, but for kicks it would be interesting to review what he had to say if anyone else caught it and has the url.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

What about the impact of illegal immigration on those of us already here? Wages have not been keeping up with other economic trends--the working and lower middle classes are suffering out here because wages are not keeping up with the rising price of housing and energy. And a big reason for it is all this cheap illegal labor. The "jobs American wont' do" line is a myth--there are American citizens who would do those jobs, if they paid enough. Instead of raising wages, hotels and farms and restaurants and construction companies and anybody else can hire cheap illegals, who are happy to be making a much better deal than they would in Mexico. And this has an effect on other industries as well--why should a retail place offer more than $8/hour, when McDonald's is still getting away with paying $6? If McD's had to raise their wage to $8, then Dillard's would probably go to $10. Sure, corporate profits wouldn't be so high, but the average American would be better off.

Pink Floyd · Veteran Member

fear of shiz wrote:

And this has an effect on other industries as well--why should a retail place offer more than $8/hour, when McDonald's is still getting away with paying $6? If McD's had to raise their wage to $8, then Dillard's would probably go to $10. Sure, corporate profits wouldn't be so high, but the average American would be better off.

Perhaps. But if EggMcMuffins continue their price rise (from $.99 to $1.49 to $1.89 and now $2.29) and ended up at $2.89 to cover the wage increases, I wouldn't buy them any more. And perhaps I WOULD be better off.

But McDonald's would sell fewer EggMcMuffins every days. And therefore. perhaps. would need fewer employees to make them.

arbilad · Head Chef

I don't think that McDonalds necessarily needs higher wages. At least where I live, I know plenty of people who aren't illegal immigrants who work there. Jobs like that are ideal for high school students or other people just entering the job market and learning to hold down a job.
As far as the jobs that people say we need immigrants to fill, such as picking cabbages, many of those jobs have historically been filled by US Citizens or legal resident aliens. The difference back then was that they paid a decent wage that encouraged some to seek after that work. Now they know that they can get away with paying illegals much less. It's not that there's a lack of people here willing to do the job. It's just that employers aren't willing to pay enough.
Sure, maybe my cabbage will get more expensive if they pay a decent wage to attract legal workers. But maybe not. I haven't noticed cabbage getting any cheaper as illegals flood across the border. Actually, quite the opposite. Besides, I don't know what the profit margin is on cabbage. Maybe the cabbage farmers are making a huge profit, and could afford to pay more. At any rate, wages are only one component of the price of a thing.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

There is also the very real thing to think about economically if one wants to argue either way concerning the "advantage" of paying low wages to illegal immigrants in "the jobs Americans won't take." Sure, we can pay people more money and thus incent people after this or that sort of work, but the real thing to consider is that raising wages (across the board or across a whole industry sector) does not necessarily result long term in the wage earners having an increase in buying power. What is the $ worth that one is being paid?

Higher wages end up meaning higher costs in the whole production and distribution of goods model. Those expenses are not absorbed by business. They are passed on to the next party in the chain. And, guess what, ultimately the consumer pays for it all in the form of higher costs. So, if everyone ends up getting a raise so that they are making $10 / hr for working in agricultural harvesting or flippin' crabby patties or making beds, and then the cost of a head of cauliflower goes up from $1.50 to $2.50 and a value menu crabby patty goes from $.99 to $1.59 and the cost of the hotel room goes from $79.00 / night (pre taxes) to $89.00 / night, has the buying power of the consumer who used to only have $5.00 but now has $10.00 gone up, remained static, or gone down?

More money does not necessarily mean better standard of living long term if prices go up and inflation is something people ignore, particularly when the economy does not incent thrift and saving. And throwing more money into a consumer based system generally only means inflation is going to go up, because the money or currency of an economy has to have an intrinsic economic value behind it (even if it is not based on gold or silver or something tangible). It is like stock. A company is only worth X real dollars, and a share of stock in theory represents X / # of shares worth of the company. Add more shares of stock, and each individual unit is devalued.

And I'll be quite now, because I think I'm getting into stuff I really do not understand...

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, you have a good point that higher costs generally translate into higher prices. But it's a complex equation. Labor has been getting cheaper as illegals flood the country, but food prices haven't gone down. They've only gone up. Part of the reason is surely higher gas prices. But there are many, many factors.
Also, illegals are getting public benefits such as emergency room care, public schools, and soon college tuition. Our taxes help pay for these services, so even though their wages are low, and perhaps food prices are lower because of it, they cause a drain because they use services that they don't pay for. This isn't a small issue. Many hospitals are going under in the areas where the most illegals are.
It's a complex issue, but I think it's far from proven that the low wages of illegals are a net boon to us. And there are those who say that if we make them legal, we could get taxes from them. Somehow I don't think that the employers are going to be too wild about paying the employer contribution to the taxes. Also, illegals can pay taxes right now if they want. The IRS has something called a "taxpayer ID number". You don't need to prove legal residency to get such a number. And you can use it to pay taxes.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

Cat, you have a good point that higher costs generally translate into higher prices. But it's a complex equation. Labor has been getting cheaper as illegals flood the country, but food prices haven't gone down. They've only gone up. Part of the reason is surely higher gas prices. But there are many, many factors.
Also, illegals are getting public benefits such as emergency room care, public schools, and soon college tuition. Our taxes help pay for these services, so even though their wages are low, and perhaps food prices are lower because of it, they cause a drain because they use services that they don't pay for. This isn't a small issue. Many hospitals are going under in the areas where the most illegals are.
It's a complex issue, but I think it's far from proven that the low wages of illegals are a net boon to us. And there are those who say that if we make them legal, we could get taxes from them. Somehow I don't think that the employers are going to be too wild about paying the employer contribution to the taxes. Also, illegals can pay taxes right now if they want. The IRS has something called a "taxpayer ID number". You don't need to prove legal residency to get such a number. And you can use it to pay taxes.

Precisely. It is a very complex issue, and those who argue about how it "adds" to our economy by keeps prices down are taking a too simplistic look at it. Wages are being kept down, tax revenue is not being collected (or at least not being collected properly), expenses as in social cost go up and the real costs we pay to cover the gaps out of pocket and through taxes go up.

So, wages have essentially stayed stagnant for most people (even though we think we are getting raises every once in a while... the three or four I've gotten in the last 8 years have never even come close to a typical COLA increase), the drain caused by illegal immigration has impacted us actually negatively... by lowering the increase of wages across the board while increasing cost of living for everyone and thus lowered the quality of life and economic strength and buying power of every citizen and legal immigrant.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

That's close enough to what I was saying.

Mattai · Member

The whole issue aside from the economic harms that illegal immigration has on the country, is the whole Aztlan metality that Latino activists and increasingly illegal aliens have here in the Southwest. They believe this is Mexico and have no need to assilimate, learn English, or become American. Recently Maywood, CA just south of LA is 97% Latino and 70% illegal aliens declared itself sanctuary city to illegal aliens. There the Mexican flag has hung at the U.S. Post Office. If that's not an act of treason, then I don't what is. Also SaveOurState.Org, anti-illegal immigration group protested, the Latino activists demands the racist whites to go back to Europe where they came from. This is the kind of hate speech and rhetoric we Americans are increasingly facing, yet major media and those living outside the Southwest turn a blind eye.

If the Senate bill passes, not only will the bill legalize the 20-30 million illegal aliens and also all their relatives in Mexico too. That's some 60 million people with no education, who are mostly illiterate with no desire and motivation to assilimate into the mainstream American society. They will become the "mainstream." Is that the direction America wants to go??

Mattai · Member

Well, it looks like Washington will not vote on immigration before the November elections. Great. A Democratic House, A Republican Senate, and A Republican President -- a receipe for distater for full amnesty in '07.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/05/us/05cong.html?ei=5094&en=30b1a0cdbe6ab394&hp=&ex=1157428800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

-- Edited by Mattai at 04:54, 2006-09-05

arbilad · Head Chef

I really don't think that they should pass any new laws - especially not any giving amnesty. I think that the current laws need to be enforced. For instance, if employers were actually checked to see if they were hiring illegals.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

I really don't think that they should pass any new laws - especially not any giving amnesty. I think that the current laws need to be enforced. For instance, if employers were actually checked to see if they were hiring illegals.

Yeah, I agree with this. Shoot, with all the Sarbanes-Oxley stuff that corporations have to do now, there is a whole new "industry" that has arisen in auditing... and companies have to show they are compliant with the law, so that means they have to pay for the services of these auditors. So, I imagine a similar sort of bureaucratic thing such as enforcing laws on the books could actually be a boon to the economy by putting people to work as HR law compliancy auditors... Ironic, isn't it. Enforcement could result in more red tape and bureaucracy and the feeling of government meddling in the affairs of private enterprise based on how we operate.

So, what do we do? Nothing or further the move towards a big brother socialism (because that is what the cry would be... and is when local government tries to start enforcing or whistleblows... by "expanding" government to enforce)?

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Mattai, don't fear--there won't be a Democratic House.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

The first thing we do is turn off the spigot. We have to control the border. Once that is done, then we can start to consider what to do about those that are here. But until the leak stops, there is nothing we can do about the water that is already in the boat.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

As a sixth generation farmer in Central California I want to tell you what I have seen. If some of you came to my town you would be shocked at the poverty here. Illegal immigration depresses wages and has caused farmers to not advance technically. The towns are heavilly balkanized. Having 30 people live in a one bedroom house with kids using the yard for a toilet is not uncommon. It happens right on main street about 200 yards from where I am sitting. In five generations we have seen the flow of people come into the area to do the farm labor. We had the Oakies after the dustbowl come. We had blacks from the south flee to California and now we have illegal mexican labor. Legal immigration is good. To be a legal immigrant means you have a stake in this country. Those who are in this area illegally have no intention of staying here. They work here and send the money home. The vast majority of illegal immigrants do not want to become citizens. They send the money home and hope to retire there. If they can save enough money they can live quite well in Mexico. Because they do not want to stay they do not have a reason to become proficient in the language or encourage their children to do well in the schools. They do not take on an American identity or strive to assimilate. Past generations of immigrants to this area stayed, got their kids educated, got them out of the fields and moved to the cities. I could drop you into some of these farm towns and you would swear that you were no longer in the U.S. The poverty is staggering. The schools are overwhelmed with children years behind in their education, unable to speak the langage, unable to communicate with parents, and then the kids dissapear as the family moves around following the crop harvests. For nearly 20 years we had double digit unemployment and those who understand how the unemployment numbers are calculated will realize that the illegal workers are generally not counted in this number. Get in an accident and you are more likely to see on party or the other flee the scene. The cost of auto insurance is very high as a result plus the health system suffers. Try going into a hospital emergency room around here. You will be hard pressed to find an empty seat. No insurance + no money means you go to the emergency room where they are legally obligated to treat you.

It is sad. No one should have to live like this in America. You can't give people a way out of the situation because they aren't even supposed to be here. Where do you put the 30 people living in a 1 bedroom house? The Azatlan/Mecha/MAPA groups are the minority. These people live in the cities and have regular jobs. They aren't living in these towns. If you are illegal and your daughter or wife is assaulted do you report it? They do not. Countless crimes go unreported in these small farming towns. Hardened criminals and drugs flow through these towns. TB is rampant along with countless other illnesses that should not exist in the US. Bed bugs and other invaders should not be here either but they are.

I'm not a closed border advocate. I recognize that we need and want immigrants in this country but the way things are now it is chaos. Some say to blame the employer. All I am required to do as an employer is fill out an I-9 verification form and make a copy of their social security card and driver's license. I know a kid down the street that can sell me both. If I do more than that I am overstepping the bounds of the legal system. Any less than that and I am breaking the law. I know a guy who has hired the same worker twice under two different names. Both times the man had all the right documentation. Which time was he here illegally? The first time, the second time, or both? The worker isn't talking. If the farmer called it into INS, nothing will be done. They are overloaded.

Farmers are technologically behind. With cheap illegal labor there is less of an incentive to use technology. As a result, the farmer is probably 30 years behind where they could be technology wise and it is harder to compete on the world market. Farmers sell their products as commodities on the market based on supply or demand. Prices are controlled up the chain. The farmer sells his products at the market rate so raising prices to cover increased labor costs is not the answer. He must eliminate labor costs in order to remain competitive in the world market. Farmers in the U.S. have the highest standards and the most regulation of any farmers in the world. They must compete with farmers from Europe where they are heavilly subsidized and farmers in the third world who have low labor costs, no chemical regulations, and no insurance requirements. Do you know what is on that peach that you are eating? Do you know where it came from? Illegal labor is bad for U.S. farming longterm. It makes us less competitive.

Illegal immigration creates an almost slavelike class of shadow workers who have are being exploited by a system where they have no recourse. Those who are here legally have legal protections and a chance at moving out of poverty. Illegal immigration is bad for the immigrants (legal and illegal), bad for communities, bad for business, and bad for the security and health of the U.S. Government programs are not the answer. If you are really interested in this subject I highly recommend a book Dr. Victor Davis Hanson called Mexifornia. He is a fellow at the Hoover institute and a farmer from a nearby town. His descriptions of what is going on in these farm worker ghettos will shock you. You have probably seen him on Fox News and he has a weekly syndicated column. Most of the time he speaks or is interviewed regarding the war on terror but his roots are here in Central California agriculture.

At any rate, that's my two cents. Things are really sad in these towns and no one here is a winner when it comes to illegal immigration especially in the long run.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

The following is from the office of Congressman Ron Paul - TX via thelibertycommittee.org and I think gives a good idea of what a large element of our FedGov really has planned for us. It is, I believe, what illegal immigration and amnesty is all about. Emphasis mine. - Lundbæk

September 15, 2006

The U.S. House voted yesterday to build a fence on the U.S.-Mexican border by passing the
Secure Fence Act of 2006. We applaud that decision. However, we cannot relax our
vigilance on the issue of illegal immigration and here’s why. The legislation authorizes construction of only a 700-mile fence on the 2,000-mile border. (Presently, there is fencing along just 75 miles of the border.) In addition, the legislation does not authorize any money to pay for the fence construction. That omission is unusual because most bills include an authorization of money to pay for what the legislation directs. Money will presumably be added this fall to the Homeland Security appropriations bill, but that is an open question. In addition, Senate Majority Leader
Bill Frist has said, according to a Capitol Hill source, the U.S. Senate will not vote on
any immigration bills during the rest of this year. If the Senate doesn’t pass the Secure
Fence Act the House passed yesterday, the legislation dies.

So why don’t the Republican-controlled Congress and White House pass substantial and
comprehensive legislation to correct the problem of illegal immigration; legislation the
vast majority of Americans want? In a word: amnesty. The Democrats want amnesty for the estimated 10 to 20 million illegal aliens in the United States. The Republicans do also.

President Bush has always wanted to grant amnesty. Republican Senators Bill Frist, John
McCain, and Kay Bailey Hutchinson have joined Democratic Senators Ed Kennedy and Harry
Reid in support of amnesty. And Republican leaders in the U.S. House have been unclear on
their position.

But it’s clear to us that the political elites of both parties want to grant amnesty
because of their desire to create a European-style Union made up of Canada, the U.S.,
Mexico and Latin America. To them, the United States of America is an outdated idea.

So passage of the Secure Fence Act by the U.S. House yesterday was simply a token to
voters this November. But the vast majority of Americans want more than tokens. They
want substantial legislation passed now to stop illegal immigration.

Congressmen Ron Paul, Tom Tancredo, Virgil Goode, John Hostettler, Walter Jones and others
are working to that end. Congressman Paul proposes:

1. Physically secure our borders and coastlines.
2. Enforce visa rules on people already in the U.S.
3. Reject amnesty.
4. End welfare-state incentives for illegal aliens.
5. End birthright citizenship.

Congressman Paul strongly urges his congressional colleagues and President Bush to approve
these proposals this year. (See “Immigration Reform in 2006?" at http://www.house.go
v/paul/tst/tst2006/tst091106.htm)

Don’t be lulled into thinking the problem of illegal immigration will be solved by
yesterday’s passage of the Secure Fence Act. Our U.S. representatives and senators, along
with President Bush, need to know we know what they are not doing about illegal
immigration. And that their inaction will be remembered this seventh of November.

Capitol Hill Switchboard: 202-224-3121
White House Switchboard: 202-456-1414

Kent Snyder
The Liberty Committee

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Pres. Bush's immigration plan was not an amnesty. If you pay a fee for breaking the law it's not amnesty. The last ad is very irresponsible demagogery, and is one of the reasons why nothing is being done on this issue.

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The reason nothing gets done is that you are branded a racist if you support enforcing the law. A fine for entering illegally before granting some sort of legal status has been attacked by the illegal immigrantion rights extremists. They say you are racist and that is the worst insult anyone can call you. No one wants to be called a racist. You can call someone all sorts of nasty names and accuse them of all kinds of horrible deads but somehow the term "racist" gets the media humming and immediately backpedaling. If you want to shut down debate on any subject, frame it in terms of race and call your opponent a racist. Guaranteed to work 100% of the time.

Very few elected representatives can stomach the possibility of being called a racist and they want the votes of Latinos. Bottom line. This is why nothing will be done.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think things can be done. I think it's deceptive jargon to claim that nothing will or ever can be done. My frustration with the issue is that the imperialist right has an unrealistic and overly draconian view of the issue, and it suits the opposition to just let things remain unchecked.

Also much of the opposition is within the Conservative Business community.

As for the racist charge, I hear a lot of folks claim things that sure smack of racism to me. It's no better on the other side either, one side sounds like a racist, the other acts like one. I don't care about accusations, though.

--Ray

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

The big question Re. illegal immigration is what our government is not doing to stop it that it could do to stop it. Or why doesn't the Bush Administration want to stop the invasion of illegal foreigners? And why does it claim the best solution is just declaring them all legal through amnesty lite and guest-worker proposals. Just maybe the Bush Administration is pursuing a globalist agenda.

I have concluded that President Bush & Co. is secretly working to merge the United States into a trilateral government with Canada and Mexico. Back in March of 2005, Bush, Mexican President Vicente Fox, and (then) Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin entered into an agreement which binds the three countries into a regional or hemispheric government, and this is one of the main reasons why Bush and others are so obviously determined to grant amnesty to Mexico's illegal aliens. I think they are following through with a commitment made by President Bush to Mexican President Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Martin. I fully expect President Bush, before he leaves office, will issue a "guest worker" Executive Order or Signing Statement if the House of Representatives refuses to accept the Senate's amnesty bill. Bush has repeatedly demonstrated his willingness to circumvent Congress by issuing executive directives to get his way.

I note that this new planned nation has a name. It's called the North American Union, and it seems to be going forward without congressional involvement or any input from the Supreme Court. The agreement to create this union is called the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America, and seems to be taking after the European Union, whcih I observed during our recent mission in Denmark.

The SPP, or NAU, already has leaders appointed in the form of 3 cabinet officials from each country. Those from the USA are Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez, Secretart of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff, and Secretary of State Condolezza Rice.

Among those alternate media investigative reporters who are following this, there is major concern that the only tariffs would be around the Nnorth American continent, but not between Canada, the United States and Mexico. The stated objective is "to guarantee a free, secure, just and prosperous North America."

We'll not likely hear or read much of anything more of this in the mainstream media; not since Lou Dobbs gave his opinion of it on a TV show somemonths ago. We'll have to keep tabs on it thru the alternate media. And the John Birch Society is all over it as well. But I think anyone conceerned about illegal immigration ought to be equally concerned about this appartnt effort toward greater unification between Canada, the United States, and Mexico.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

So we finally get what we wanted back in 1812 and 1847?

James K. Polk would be proud.

Honestly, if Canada and Mexico wanted to join the United States, I'm sure we could add a few stars to the flag. Would bring a lot of oil into the country. Cuba is welcome, too, after Castro finally bites it.

Of course, I'm not sure we would want Quebec....Maybe we'd just let them go their own way.

And I'd worry that a great many of our Canadian friends would be Democratic voters...Hmmmm....maybe it's not such a great idea after all.

arbilad · Head Chef

Actually, Shiz, in this case it's quite different. Unless I misremember history, in those instances we were interested in additional territory flying the US flag. This SPP is looking to establish a government over the governments of Canada, the US, and Mexico. This would mean, probably, the death penalty going away, for instance, because the ubergovernment would strive to make all laws "equal" and "fair". Ukraine, for instance, did away with the death penalty in the hopes of joining the European Union eventually. And in many countries you can't buy vitamin supplements anymore, or if you can, only in limited quantities. In the U.S., for instance, you can still buy 1000 milligram tablets of Vitamin C. The European Union has determined that that can't be allowed, and thus has outlawed Vitamin C in anything but very small quantities.
We have enough idiocy on the part of our elected representitives to deal with without having to deal with an additional, unelected government.
BTW, I think we could do a lot of good in Mexico if we were to admit the various parts as new states (I think Mexico is a bit big to be one state). They have rich natural resources, a wonderful cultural condition, but a very corrupt government that mismanages everything badly.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Arbi,

That was just my way of saying that the way I would accept such an expansion would be under those terms. I was just having fun.

Jeffery_LQ1W · Senior Member

Illegal immigration is an interesting concept with some historical reference.

Consider the Proclamation Act of 1763, post French and Indian War. The line was initiated to keep the peace with the indians on the other side of the Appalachian Mountains. It was a border established by the UK to keep he colonists on one side of the border, the Indians also warned colonists not to cross the border (death could have easily ensued). It should have been a slam dunk shouldn't it. Don't cross the border or get scalped. What did the logical English citizen do?

Well, if you look to a Pennsylvanian called Daniel Boone, you become the equivalent of a "coyote" (modern parlance for someone who smuggles illegal aliens into a country). Boone took settlers over the border despite the attempts of both sides of the border to stop him.

Think of the indentured servant who has now freed himself of servitude based on the passage fare. Now the opportunity for free land makes itself known. But where west of the Proclamation line is free land available? It isn't. And in the days of the colonies, land was wealth, it was also the ticket that allowed you to vote (only landed white men could vote) and therefore run for office. Opportunity beckoned and Boone was the vehicle.

So history does repeat itself and we now face a similar problem. It is funny how it wasn't a problem three years ago but is a problem now. Is it manipulation, or simply awareness? An interesting question, but not one that can easily be addressed here (conspiracy theorists have at it).

Should we limit immigration? What are the requirements we should set in place? How do we enforce them?

As long as Mexico remains a mess, people will cross the border, and they will find a way to do so. The Berllin Wall was an excellent obstacle, but it also was an acknowledgement of a lack of humanity. We have, based on estimates, around 12 - 20 million illegal aliens in the US, most from the southern regions of our continent. And yet we also have an unemployment rate of 4 - 5 percent (unlike Europe which has almost twice as much, especially France). One could argue that the illegal immigration is a hedge against run away inflation (take away twelve million workers and wages would shoot right up, along with prices to reflect the wage increases). I don't think we would enjoy such a thing.

I think the guest worker program is a good one, along with a much more stringent enforcement and barrier (or obstacle) at the border, though one that should not deny humanity (as the Berlin Wall did).

One other note. Rome did not begin its decline until Hadrian built his wall (and expelled the Jews from the Holy Land, since Hollywood is not expelling Jews, then maybe we shouldn't build the wall here either ).

arbilad · Head Chef

I have no problem with legal immigrants. My wife is an immigrant. But illegal immigrants are a very real problem. They don't pay taxes, but use our public services. They frequently vote, even though they aren't citizens and have no stake in this country (most of them plan to return to Mexico after having put aside a lot of dough). Their living conditions are horrible. They are disproportionately responsible for crimes. In LA County, 95% of the arrest warrants issued for murder are for illegal aliens. Because of their desire to not assimilate, they create a "us and them" situation. Remember: "United we stand, divided we fall."