On another forum one of the members commented about the subject of the thread that "This is a topic you can't talk about in the local ward without someone getting really really torked off." I does happen. Last evening an acquaintance called me from a toll call away to tell me he quit his calling as HP group instructor after a few Sundays of bitter disagreements over issues in the priesthood lesson book.
Thinking back over my 49 years in the Church, I can remember occasions when a member would get "torqued off" over not just controversial topics in lesson books, but also over statements made by General Authorities in General Conferences and in church publications. The issues I remember clearly that set feathers to flying included:
women working out of the home,
sabbath day sports and public entertainment, especially by pros
I think political issues will become more divisive. But there are many others. Some members now feel that we should be accepting of homosexual behavior. I think that issue will become more and more divisive as time goes on. I think we are definitely facing a time where you need to have a testimony, and not just fake one, or you will be led away into dark paths.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Well, I dunnit. I torqued some people off with a sacrament talk I gave this past Sunday. A friend in the ward told me it caused some controversy in a SS class the next hour. Judge for yourselves.
A week ago yesterday, on the day America celebrated the 233rd Anniversary of the signing of our nations birth certificate, namely the American Declaration of Independence, I participated in an activity in Gilbert in which many people had opportunity to express their frustrations and concerns about the "awful situation" they perceive that our country is in, and in some cases the "awwful situation" they are finding themselves and their families in. Blame for the "awful situation" was thrown about in any number of directions by people carrying signs, and speakers, including myself. In my case, the "awful situation" that I perceive, and that many others I associate with also perceive, is that which Moroni wrote of, as is recorded in Verse 24 of the 8th Chapter of Ether.
The 8th Chapter of Ether. Thats your homework assignment for tonite.
I believe that the current challenging situations many of us fear, or are facing already, have been brought about largely by failure or refusal to heed a very important commandment of the Lord; by our collective, general disobedience to or neglect of that commandment found in Verse 6 of the 98th Section of the D&C, and also in the Preface of that Section. Thats the commandment that tells us "The Saints are to befriend the constitutional law of the land."
But before I go any further with this, Id like to tell you about a man who I find one of the most interesting Church General Authorities.
His name is J. Reuben Clark. Joshua Reuben Clark, to be precise. As a member of the First Presidency, he was a counselor to three Church Presidents over a period of 28 years. We've never had another human being in this Church serve as a counselor to Presidents of the Church longer than J. Reuben Clark.
What Im going to tell you about him now is out of two books: "This is J. Reuben Clark: The Public Years", and "This is J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years" by Michael Quinn and Frank Fox, and published by the Brigham Young University Press in 1983.
President Clark was very disturbed that he would be called to the First Presidency of the Church. One needs to know a little bit about the background of J. Reuben Clark at that time as far as the Church was concerned, to appreciate what a shock this was to him and probably to others as well. He hadn't been where he could be active in the church for 20 to 25 years. In Washington, D.C., where he lived and worked from 1906 until 1930, you could go to a little Sunday evening affair that Senator Smoot held, but that was all. He paid his tithing, but there wasn't any Church, very often, to go to. Then from 1931 to 1933 he served a U.S. Ambassador to Mexico. He'd never been a Bishop, never been a Stake President.
Then he suddenly found himself telling Bishops and Stake Presidents how to do their jobs, how run their Stakes and their Wards. Concerning his calling to the First presidency, J. Reuben Clark reportedly said to President Grant, "Don't you make these choices by inspiration?" President Grant said, "Yes, we do." J. Reuben Clark said, "I can understand why a lawyer of international prominence and so forth, like myself, may add to the prestige of the Church. But I don't know what I am doing here. I am doing things that I never was trained to do. I'm instructing people. I feel very inadequate."
Well, according to the story that I read, President Grant said, "That's not why you were chosen as a counselor." Brother Clark asked, "Well, why was I chosen?" President Grant told him, "You were chosen because the Constitution of the United States is in jeopardy. The Church needs to be aroused, the country needs to be aroused, and we've got to start training our people to defend that Constitution before it's shredded and lost." "Oh, really?!" "You are the best Constitutionalist in the Church." And those of you who might remember President Bensons talks and writings about our Constitution should be impressed by his having once referred to President Clark as "The eminent Constitutional authority".
President Clarks speeches about the importance of the US Constitution in Church General Conferences and in public were received with derision and contempt by many. But of all his statements in support of the U.S. Constitution, one that he made in the April 1935 General Conference stands out the most in my mind. He said: "To me...that statement of the Lord, "I have established the Constitution of this land," puts the Constitution of the United States in the position in which it would be if it were written in this book of Doctrine and Covenants itself. This makes the Constitution the word of the Lord to us. That it was given, not by oral utterance, but by the inspiration of his mind and spirit upon the minds of men, inspiring them to the working out of this great document of human government, does not alter its authority.
And in that connection, President George Albert Smith, speaking in the April 1948 General Conference, said: "I am saying to you that to me the Constitution of the United States of America is just as muc from my Heavenly Father as the Ten Commandments."
If there is one single verse of Scripture that has been ringing like a clarion call in my head in recent years, it is Verse 6 of the 98th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants. "Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;". Given by the Lord Jesus Christ thru the Prophet Joseph Smith, at Kirtland, Ohio, August 6, 1833, its message is clear.
"The saints are to befriend the constitutional law of the land." And that is stated in the Preface to the 98th section as well. That message is preceded in Verse 4 by the statement "it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them".
In trying to come up with a good explanation of what the Lord meant by befriending the United States Constitution, I found that in the October 1987 General Conference, the Prophet, President Ezra Taft Benson, told us how to "befriend" the US Constitution. He said "How then can we best befriend the Constitution in this critical hour and secure the blessings of liberty and ensure the protection and guidance of our Father in Heaven?"
Now understand, this is a prophet of God speaking in a Church General Conference, not just me.
"First and foremost, we must be righteous... Two great American Christian civilizations - the Jaredites and the Nephites - were swept off this land because they did not "serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ. (Ether 2: 12) What will become of our civilization?
"Second, we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers. Have we read the Federalist Papers? Are we reading the Constitution and pondering it? Are we aware of its principles? Are we abiding by these principles and teaching them to others? Could we defend the Constitution? Can we recognize when a law is constitutionally unsound? Do we know what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it?
"Third, we must become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented....
"Fourth, we must make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice. We must become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel...." But why should Latter-day Saints even concern themselves with upholding and abiding by the United States Constitution now, in a time when a late nite talk show host would suggest we give our Constitution of another country because we dont use ours any more. Let me cite 4 good reasons, please:
1.) The Lord Himself has stated unequivocally that He is the Constitutions Author. Almost all of the latter-day prophets have declared that the Constitution is a document that was created through the inspiration of the Spirit. The Lord stated, as recorded in D&C 101: 80, that "I, established the Constitution of this land by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose."
2.) Almost every prophet in this dispensation has emphasized the vital importance of defending, upholding and adhering to the Constitution. Those who have spoken on this particular subject have warned us that there is simply no way around this duty if we wish to remain a free people, and that our collective future will be affected radically by our decision to adhere to this counselor to either ignore or reject it. In addition to the Lords statement in D&C 98: 6 that "I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land.", And in that connection, we have a statement by President David O. McKay, that "Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States."
3.) Several prophets have warned that we have apostatized in various ways from the Constitution, and have spoken of that day of destiny when the Constitution will be on the very verge of destruction, or when it will hang by a thread. In that connection, President McKay stated: "...there has been an alarming increase in the abandoning of the ideals that constitute the foundation of the Constitution of the United States, and of the American home, and you will agree with me that there is real cause for apprehension."
4.) The Constitutions role goes beyond just providing a free nation in which the gospel and true Church could be restored to the Earth. The Constitution will become the governing system for the whole world during the Millennium. In that regard, the Lord has told us in D&C 98: 5 "And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind,...". And in D&C 101:77 "The laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established....should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh."
But, as Ezra Taft Benson once stated, "For years we have heard of the role the elders could play in saving the Constitution from total destruction. But how can the elders be expected to save it if they have not studied it and are not sure if it is being destroyed or what is destroying it?"
Active members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in general have many demands placed upon them, including providing for their families, spending quality time with their families, making time for personal and family prayers and Gospel study, engaging in missionary work, conducting family history research, attending the temple, going home teaching and visiting teaching, and participating in other worthy activities. In spite of all these responsibilities, it appears we are also under obligation to defend and promote the freedoms that the Lord intended us to have.
So where does that leave us? Where do we stand? Imagine, if you would please, a group of rafters paddling and cruising down a river. Their guide calls to them its time to turn around and paddle back upstream. It gets dangerous up ahead. But the current is flowing faster now, and the ride is much more fun and exciting, so most of the rafters just ignore the warning and keep on going.
Pretty soon, the current becomes swifter, and the guide shouts a second warning to the people in the rafts. Too late now to get back upstream. Just get to the shore, he cries out. A waterfall is just around the bend.
Again, most of the rafters are enjoying the ride so much that they ignore the guides warning and elect to continue on and enjoy the ride as long as they can.
Then they hear the roaring sound of the waterfall. Then it comes in sight. In panic, the rafters try to paddle for the shore. Their guide no longer shouts to them to paddle ashore. Its no use. All he can tell them now is to rig the rafts for the safest possible splashdown.
So I certainly hope we are all doing our best to follow the Prophets admonitions of preparedness and food storage. That may well be a major key now to OUR safest possible splashdown.
-- Edited by lundbaek on Saturday 25th of July 2009 05:24:19 PM
It's hard for some people to admit that there's a problem in the world today.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Anybody is free to share my talk with other LDS people, especially with LDSs in Congress and Mitt Romney.
One part of my talk that could draw flak is when I stated: "But why should Latter-day Saints even concern themselves with upholding and abiding by the United States Constitution now, in a time when a late nite talk show host would suggest we give our Constitution of another country because we dont use ours any more. Let me cite 4 good reasons, please:" and then gave the four reasons. One could say I was out of line inmaking those assumptions from the scriptures I cited. But it helps to, as President Benson said, "...know what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it."
So, I compiled some of the things the prophets said about the Constitution. The first three of the following statements concerning the US Constitution were given by the Lord Jesus Christ to the Prophet, Joseph Smith. Of the following twelve statements, all made by Presidents of the Church during times when they were serving as President of the Church, two were recorded in the Journal of Discourses, three were given as Messages of the First Presidency, one was printed in The Instructor magazine, and six were given during Church General Conferences. The last paragraph is from the Church publication Principles of the Gospel.
D&C 98: 4-7 4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them. 5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. 6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land; 7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
D&C 101: 77, 80 77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles; 80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.
D&C 109:54 54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.
The General Constitution of our country is good, and a wholesome government could be framed upon it, for it was dictated by the invisible operations of the Almghty.... (President Brigham Young, July 4, 1854, Journal of Discourses 7:13-14)
We believe that the Constitution of the United States was given by inspiration of God (President John Taylor, April 9, 1882, Journal of Discourses, 23:53)
[The Churchs] members are under divine commandments to revere the Constitution as a heaven-inspired instrument. (Preident Wilford Woodruff, December 12, 1889, Messages of the First Presidency.)
By revelation to Joseph Smith, the Prophet, the Lord declared that he had established the Constitution of the United States through wise men raised up unto this very purpose. President (Joseph F. Smith, March 26, 1907, Messages of the First Presidency, 4:150)
...we believe that the men who wrote the Constitution of this country were inspired of the living God. (President Heber J. Grant, October 1919 General Conference)
I thank God that we believe that the constitution of our country was given to us under the inspiration of the living God,... (Heber J. Grant, October 1924 General Conference)
"I am saying to you that to me the Constitution of the United States of America is just as much from m Heavenly Father as the Ten Commandments." (President George Albert Smith, April 1948 General Conference)
Next to being one in worshiping god, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States, (President David O. McKay, February 1956, The Instructor, 91:34)
We urge members of the Church and all Americans to begin now to reflect more intently on the meaning and importance of the Constitution, and of adherence to its principles. (President Harold B. Lee, November 1973, The First Presidency Statement on the Constitution, The Ensign)
In the revelation he [the Lord] gave to Joseph Smith, he said [D&C 98:4-6]. (President Spencer W. Kimball, April 1974 General Conference)
I testify that America is a choice land. God raised up the founding fathers of the United States of America and established the Constitution. (President Ezra Taft Benson, October 2, 1988 General Conference)
The Constitution under which we live....is our God-inspired national safeguard insuring freedom and liberty, justice and equality before the law. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2001 General Conference)
The men who framed the Constitution were directed by the Spirit of the Lord in establishing the basic freedoms guaranteed the citizens of this country....Unless we members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable. The Constitution was established through the inspiration of God to preserve the liberty of the people and to maintain his promise. (Principles of the Gospel, Page 135-136, Page 146-147, Published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1991)
Welcome back Coco. And it's sad that some topics should cause controversy. After all, we should all be trying for greater understanding, right? If someone feels that Lundie is in error, they should attempt to correct him gently. And maybe, just maybe they'll learn something new in the process.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
When I gave that above talk, I corrected one sentence from my written version, and I've just made the correction above. I replaced a statement attributed to Joseph Fielding Smith with a similar one by President George Albert Smith: "And in that connection, President George Albert Smith, speaking in the April 1948 General Conference, said: "I am saying to you that to me the Constitution of the United States of America is just as muc from my Heavenly Father as the Ten Commandments."
This statement coming from President George Albert Smith carries more clout because it was made by a Prophet during a General Conference. It's harder to argue with a prophet.
Our bishop was out of town that Sunday. Earlier this week I was asked by the bishop's counselor who had asked me to speak to give him hard copies to give to the bishop and a member of the stake presidency. Only two complaints have reached my ears, one thru a man I home teach who relayed that the only lawyer in the ward disagreed with my talk without giving specifics, and one relayed thru my wife that the HP Group Leader thinks I spend too much time on that subject. I've only spoken very briefly about it twice in the last year +, both times in a testimony meeting. In one of those testimony meetings, last year, I stated my testimony that the US Constitution is a Gospel Principle. But a fair number of people in the ward know that I did not support Mitt Romney (and most of those know why), and that may have ruffled some feathers to begin with.
Since giving that talk on 12 July in sacrament meeting about the oblligations and responsibilities of Latter-day Saints to the Constitution of the United States in sacrament meeting a few weeks ago, I have been asked what was the connection between that and the parable of the rafters going over a waterfall, with which I ended my talk. I perhaps should have discussed that connection.
Imagine, if you would, please, a group of rafters paddling and cruising down a river. Their guide calls to them its time to turn around and paddle back upstream. It gets dangerous up ahead. But the current is flowing faster now, and the ride is much more fun and exciting, so most of the rafters just ignore the warning and keep on going. I note that from the time of Joseph Smith up until about 1970, the members of the Church received many admonitons to become actively involved in studying the U.S. Constitution and in actively involved in protecting and upholding it. It is my belief that if the Saints had responded positively to that admonition, the Lord would have honoured our efforts by intervening in our government in ways that would have stopped the ongoing apostacy from our Constitution, and brought about a return of our government to constitutional principles. Pretty soon, the current becomes swifter, and the guide shouts a second warning to the people in the rafts. Too late now to get back upstream. Just get to the shore, he cries out. A waterfall is just around the bend. I believe that by the 1970s, the United States was pretty deep into apostacy from our Constitution. But further apostacy from it could have been prevented, and although return to government in compliance with the Constitution would have been slower and more difficult, it might still have been possible.
Again, most of the rafters are enjoying the ride so much that they ignore the guides warning and elect to continue on and enjoy the ride as long as they can. But in spite of the efforts of prophets, certain apostles, and certain LDS and non-LDS citizens to get Americans to "befriend" the U.S. Constitution, those efforts were largely ignored by Latter-day Saints.
Then they hear the roaring sound of the waterfall. Then it comes in sight. In panic, the rafters try to paddle for the shore. Their guide no longer shouts to them to paddle ashore. Its no use. All he can tell them now is to rig the rafts for the safest possible splashdown. Now the United States has fallen so deep into apostacy from its Constitution that I see little hope of resurrecting our Constitution and getting people elected to Congress (both the House and the Senate) and into the presidency. I believe the current challenging situations we fear or are already facing have been brought about largely by failure or refusal to heed that important commandment of the Lord and the warnings and admonitions of prophets and apostles that we "befriend" the Constitution.
So I certainly hope we are all doing our best to follow the Prophets admonitions of preparedness and food storage. That may well be a major key now to OUR safest possible splashdown." I believe the U.S. government is now in the state that Moroni was inspired to warn us about when he wrote that we should "suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you which are built up to get power and gain." So this last statement, to rig for the safest possible splashdown, is my suggestion that we prepare for a breakdown of our government. Only after that, I believe, will those who survive the waterfall be able to resurrect a government based on constitutional principles.
You wrote: " I believe the U.S. government is now in the state that Moroni was inspired to warn us about when he wrote that we should "suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you which are built up to get power and gain." So this last statement, to rig for the safest possible splashdown, is my suggestion that we prepare for a breakdown of our government. Only after that, I believe, will those who survive the waterfall be able to resurrect a government based on constitutional principles."
AMEN!
We really need Our Heavenly Father to start speaking his sermons.
I've always known that over 2/3s of the population on the planet will be on the other side before our Savior returns. I see that happening in the next 4 years. I don't know if I will be around to see the aftermath or not. All that really matters is that I live right and try to help my family to live right so that if we are among those who make an exit to the spirit world before old age takes us here, we will be ready to do what we need to do.
These words of John Taylor have always given me hope...
Journal of Discourses, Vol.21, p.8, John Taylor, August 31st, 1879 We have got this kingdom to build up; and it is not a phantom, but a reality. We have to do it, God expects it at our hands. We have got to have--now do not tell any body for it is a great secret; we have got to have political power. What, will not that be treason? Perhaps so, but no matter; we have got to go on and progress in these things. We have got to establish a government upon the principle of righteousness, justice, truth and equality and not according to the many false notions that exist among men. And then the day is not far distant when this nation will be shaken from centre to circumference. And now, you may write it down, any of you, and I will prophesy it in the name of God. And then will be fulfilled that prediction to be found in one of the revelations given through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety. And they will come, saying, we do not know anything of the principles of your religion, but we perceive that you are an honest community; you administer justice and righteousness, and we want to live with you and receive the protection of your laws, but as for your religion we will talk about that some other time. Will we protect such people? Yes, all honorable men. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.
Therefore, Latter-day Saints, fear God; work the works of righteousness; live your religion; keep the commandments and humble yourselves before him; be one, and be united with the holy priesthood and with each other, and I will tell you in the name of God that Zion will rise and shine and the power of God will rest upon her; and her glory will be made manifest, and we will rejoice in the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel of peace; and the work of God will go on and increase until the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God and his Christ, and every creature in the heaven and on the earth and under the earth will be heard to say, Blessing, and glory, and honor and praise and power, might and majesty and dominion be ascribed to him that sits upon the throne and to the Lamb for ever and ever. Amen.
D&C 98:5 & D&C 101:77, as well as certain statements like the one by Apostle Melvin J. Ballard in the October 1918 General Conference that "...Gods word shall not fail when he predicted that the instrument knows as the Constitution of the United States...was his order of things for the government of men, and it should roll forth to fill the whole earth."; such statements convince me that the Constitution will form the basis of political government during the Millennium. I just wonder how the "Elders of Israel" are going to pull this off when most American LDS voters have never studied the Constitution, wouldnt know if a law or program was constitutional or not, and cheer, campaign, and vote for LDS candidates for elected office who are either lacking the intellect to understand the Constitution or the integrity to be guided by it.
That statemen by John Taylor in the quote DD gave us "Therefore, Latter-day Saints, fear God; work the works of righteousness; live your religion; keep the commandments and humble yourselves before him" remind me that so many LDSs do not realize that keeping the commandments includes the one in D&C 98: 6 and in the Preface to 98 that says "The Saints are to befriend the constitutional law of the land." This became especially apparent to me when I was campaigning for US Congress on strict constitutional principles. Something's gotta change.
Yea I still ruffle feathers with my anti-Romney stance.
Oh that doesn't bother me at all. It's just when some of the anti-Romney people claim that he is an evil man because he doe not agree with you politically that I am bugged with.