I wanted to move this from the Earthquake in China thread to have a bit more discussion about it.
Organist said: With all the recent destruction in the world (tornados, earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, droughts, famines) I think a large donation to the church's humanitarian aid fund is in order. I'm suggesting a donation that is a real sacrifice, a month's worth of your food, somewhere around 45X your usual fast offering. (90 meals in a month/2 meals per fast usual offering). Rich man Divas (name created by the Catholics) went to hell because he "fared sumptuously" while Lazarus begged for food outside his door. Or increase your usual fast offerings, because Lazarus was right outside the rich man's house, and our fast offerings are used locally.
I replied: While I like the kindness behind your suggestion, your number comes close to our total monthly take-home pay, not food budget.
Then Organist said: The donation means more if it is a sacrifice. The widow in the temple cast in more with her 2 mites than the rich people casting in from their abundance. But it is hard to pick a random number. Tithing is 10%, easy to calculate. Fast offerings are 2 meals, easy to calculate. But a donation to the humanitarian fund is not predetermined. I want it to be a sacrifice, but I am also living off of student loans. To me 45X the usual fast offering (90 meals in 1 month) seemed like a rational number for such plagues of devastation, even if it isn't based in any scripture or commandment. I will have to sacrifice by going without a few things, but I won't be tempted to simply take out more loans.
The point is try to find a donation that is a real sacrifice, whether that is 2 or 2 million mites.
So, a few things come to mind. First, does a donation really mean more if it's a sacrifice? (I'm looking for ideas and opinions here.) Is that the point of the widow's mite story? I had always focused on that as an example of generosity and faith more than a lesson on sacrifice.
Oooh, I think I figured something out. For me, I've rarely felt (like almost never) that something I've done or given was a sacrifice. Does that mean I've never sacrificed? Did the widow giving her 2 mites feel it was a sacrifice? Maybe for me, feeling like I'm glad to be doing the right thing keeps it like feeling like a sacrifice for me? Or have I just had a really easy life? (That last was rhetorical, people. )
Now, regarding donations, I tend to be a slow and steady kind of gal. That doesn't mean I won't give more if prompted or asked to do so by leaders. Just that I've come to a regular amount that I consider generous and that's the norm. I suppose this is a sacrifice as well, but it's also normal, so it doesn't feel like a sacrifice.
So, it is really a sacrifice if it doesn't feel like one?
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
This is something I've done some thinking on in the past. DH and I are both fixers and givers. That sounds like a brag but really we've gotten ourselves into a little bit of trouble before, mostly with time and sometimes with money, because of good intentions. But really, I don't think we should sacrifice to the point that we're in debt. "Give til it hurts" is really subjective, so it's a tough one, but for me it's come down to doing all things in wisdom and order.
For us, right now, we're providing some family down on their luck a place to live. Right now they have a little money put back to buy their own food, but we have to look ahead to when they might run out of money if he doesn't find a job in a timely way. So giving a bunch to other causes wouldn't be wise or orderly, to me. If, a few months down the road, they run out of money and our expenses are higher and we have 2 families to feed and provide utilities for, we'd better have our own preparations in order, you know? So everyone's circumstance is different.
And, if everyone gave SOME, it would go a long way. I do agree that we should be generous, but we can't individually try to save the world, either. We have to start at home and do what we can from there.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Ok, suppose a person is pretty meek and humble. They accept that all they have is from God and really just theirs as a stewardship. Say this knowledge/attitude means that giving donations doesn't feel like a sacrifice, but a joy, does that mean they aren't giving enough?
(And NO I am not that hypothetical person and am under no delusions that I am.)
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
I don't think it means they aren't giving enough. I think it means that they are "in the zone" with the Lord's economy. They are experiencing the blessings of sacrifice - and will probably experience a boost in their substance, which will enable them to give yet more, and round and round it goes.
Mark 12:41 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Since He made a point of showing His disciples this act, I generally get two things out of this story ... One, she was making a sacrifice whereas "most" people give of their abundance, what they would not miss or really feel is gone. Two, never belittle anyone's gift even if it looks like a pathetic gift (applying to all things including money) because you don't know what sacrifice might be for them.
It's easy to become incensed and cry out, "The widow should be RECEIVING money from the Church, not expected to give all she had! That's not right! What kind of sadistic Church does that? Two mites mean literally nothing to such a big Church anyway, at least let her buy her own food for another week, for the love of Pete!"
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Sometimes it is good to give until it hurts. However, it is also good to give what you can. I remember an article in the Ensign where someone felt a little silly just giving a dollar each to funds such as Humanitarian or Perpetual Education Fund(don't recall specifics). Then, they realized that if a lot of people worldwide gave a dollar how much that would add up. I do think of Old Testament times and how they offered sacrfices for thanks offerings and I think it is good to do gratitude giving where you give to something as you are grateful for what you have or were spared. People also give to causes that effected their family to give meaning to their suffering. I do think we need to be responsible in giving. I think a person can go overboard and this can have consequences for themselves or their families. God wants us to save money too and also have food storage.
It does warm my heart to see people giving to those in need.
to both hiccups and bokbadok. I think you just nailed it. That is how I personally feel about giving. To me it is a question of am I really being helpful. I don't worry about whether it "hurts" me or not, that is irrelevant. To be honest, most of the time when I do give, I don't notice it financially (and not out of stinginess). I believe that is because we have been blessed for our intent, not the amount.
Hmm... mirk- you say it's a question of your helpfulness (outcome, result) but then you say you're blessed for your intent, not the amount (outcome, result).
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Oh, and about the parable of the widow's mite... I do wonder if it's meant to be representative of how we live our lives and not just how we give donations. Like do we give it our all in how we live the gospel or are we just impressively pious when it will be noticeable?
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
Hmm... mirk- you say it's a question of your helpfulness (outcome, result) but then you say you're blessed for your intent, not the amount (outcome, result).
I meant the amount of $$$ donated. The blessings come from the intent of the donation, not the amount donated.
Here is a C. S. Lewis quote (quoted by Elder Christensen) that I have always appreciated about the question of how much we should give:
In addition to paying an honest tithing, we should be generous in assisting the poor. How much should we give? I appreciate the thought of C. S. Lewis on this subject. He said: I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare. If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, they are too small. There ought to be things we should like to do and cannot do because our charitable expenditure excludes them.
Joe J. Christensen, Greed, Selfishness, and Overindulgence, Ensign, May 1999, 9
We are told more than once in the scriptures not to run faster than we have strength (for example, King Benjamin said it specifically pertaining to the topic of giving to the poor). But I think if we follow the advice above, where we identify something on which we would like to spend some of our money and forgo that purchase in order to donate to the humanitarian fund, then I think that makes the contribution more meaningful to us and helps us stay less attached to the things of the world. And if you do it that way, then you can clearly identify it as a sacrifice even if you are completely willing to make the contribution.
I was talking with a co-worker who was leaving to go chair the local United Way branch. I asked her about the impact Burma would have on donations to local agencies like the Boy Scouts and rape crisis centers and what not. She said that surprisingly, when some big-news disaster occurs, donations will quite commonly go up across the board. We figure that when people get thinking about how lucky they are, they're more likely to fork over some additional discretionary $$ to charitable organizations.
We've always given to humanitarian aid, but I'm increasing my donations. We're short on extra money, so we've had to be creative. I've got my weekly 'eat at my work's cafetireia' budget - I'm turning that into a 'eat a $1.70 bowl of chili instead of a $6 lunch and give the rest to Humanitarian Aid' budget.
LM
-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 09:57, 2008-05-18
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And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, seven hours every day. That would be the sweetest thing of all.
Dilbert, I really like that quote. Thanks for posting it.
Beginning a few years ago when Sunday School talks would talk about sacrifice, one point consistently brought up was that we humans never really sacrifice, because God rewards us with more than we give, and we'll receive a lot more in the hereafter. I disagree with that viewpoint, because we live and give on faith. There is always a bit of uncertainty, unless one has received the sure word of prophecy.
I agree that there is much more to an offering than feeling "sacrifice", there is also the feeling of love and charity towards our fellow men. It is done for many reasons and "sacrifice" is usually an observation rather than motivation. Abraham offered his son for a sacrifice, Martin Harris was asked to put up his entire farm for collateral, and the early saints built the Kirtland temple in their poverty. The great offerings in the past have stretched those who gave.
If the amount I am giving does not require me to go without something else, it is not really a sacrifice. It may be a worthy, generous, godly donation that does a lot of good in the world, but it is not a sacrifice. Billionaires donating private jets, or millionaires funding scholarships, or 6 figure people donating to charities, or 5 figure people give their loose change to the homeless may be good things, but not necessarily sacrifices. I think the rich have to work hard to give make a sacrifice. And all of us are rich compared to billions in the world living on dollars a day.
There are also sacrifices of time and talent. The person who plays the organ in your church probably sacrificed thousands of hours over a dozen years learning to play. The stay at home mom has "given up" many things. A sacrifice is not just monetary.
To be very clear, I'm not trying to talk anyone (myself included) into smaller donations. Obviously, how much I donate is a matter for me to consider prayerfully with consideration to the input of my leaders.
In all honesty, I feel better giving when I'm not thinking about what I'm giving up. What I mean by that is that I don't go looking for what else I could be buying if I didn't give the donation. I don't think that's what makes it a sacrifice. Could I have bought stuff with the money if I didn't donate it? Of course. But that simply wasn't my money to spend. That's the way I think of it. So, it doesn't end up feeling like a sacrifice. (Even though I still think it qualifies as one now that I've thought this through.) But if I start to think of the stuff I'm giving up by donating, then I'm either congratulating myself or coveting what I missed out on. That's not the place where I want my heart to be.
This works the same way for other ways I can give as well. I don't think to myself, "Hey, if I hadn't had these kids, boy, I sure could spend my days enjoying myself more. What a sacrifice this has been." Nor did I think before having any of them, "I should have a child so I can sacrifice my time." Does that make it not a sacrifice, because sacrifice wasn't my intent?
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
The coveting twist hic put out there (and I don't think organist meant it the same way - but that's why ongoing conversations are so interesting, cuz people can see such different things from the same few sentences...) reminds me of...
Mosiah 4:24 "And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. 25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received."
Oh, and those thousands of hours over the years...? That was really the price to pay to keep our horses. Coco's Dad: "If you don't have time to practice, I guess you don't have time for horses." Coco: "Yes, I have time to practice, Dad."
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
The coveting twist hic put out there (and I don't think organist meant it the same way - but that's why ongoing conversations are so interesting, cuz people can see such different things from the same few sentences...) reminds me of...
I hope I was clear that the coveting was my deal and I'm not suggesting that it is going on with anyone else.
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
While I like the kindness behind your suggestion, your number comes close to our total monthly take-home pay, not food budget.
)
to both hiccups and bokbadok. I think you just nailed it. That is how I personally feel about giving. To me it is a question of am I really being helpful. I don't worry about whether it "hurts" me or not, that is irrelevant. To be honest, most of the time when I do give, I don't notice it financially (and not out of stinginess). I believe that is because we have been blessed for our intent, not the amount.
