FLDS Raid

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

RE: FLDS Raid

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Good one

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

This was from ksl.com just now...

Cockerell also told a state legislative committee that mothers who stayed with their children in state custody launched a coordinated effort to stymie investigators, coaching their children to not answer questions.

That was no surprise to Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. He said, "They have been, from day one, they get points in heaven for lying to authorities. They are taught to lie. Hopefully, they will get to the bottom of the truth on it too. With all the lying, you just don't know."

This type of thing really tries my patience. And yes, they have everything to hide.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

The latest on cnn: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/30/polygamist.abuse/index.html

"At least 41 children taken from a polygamist sect's Texas ranch may have had past broken bones, officials say, and investigators are looking into the possible sexual abuse of some of the sect's young boys."

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Brother. And this is gonna' take everyone by surprise! Oh, goodness gracious. rolleyes

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I wasn't surprised, sadly.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah, me neither.

This is something interesting if anyone is familiar with that "alleged" revelation to John Taylor in 1886.. basically stating that polygamy will never, ever go away. That's been gnawing on my mind through this whole flds thing. I was unaware that the LDS Church had ever made a statement regarding the JT "revelation." There's no date on that, though... not saying any of this is the real Truth... just looking around.

http://www.fldstruth.org/sysmenu.php?MParent=HISTORY&MIndex=37

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

ACLU expresses concerns: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695277280,00.html

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225082,00.html?pg=1

An article about the FLDS lost boys. The whole situation makes me sad and more and more I'm thinking this raid might be a case of two wrongs not making a right. I saw a bit of some FLDS parents on morning TV in a waiting room this morning. I saw people who really want their children back.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355246,00.html

Were they really keeping young women who were pregnant accusing them of not being 18, just so they could be sure to have access to their babies when they were born? That's one theory I've heard put forth. I don't like the sound of that at all.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah. Huh. This whole thing - I dunno, I'm just waiting for something... not sure what, I guess.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

And now from the other side of my feelings on the matter, an opinion piece from Deseret News: http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225231,00.html

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

The young mother of one of the newborns born straight into state custody won a bit of a victory in court.

"The 18-year-old has secured a few more rights over her newborn baby than other members of the Fundamentalist LDS Church have over their children, her attorneys said Friday."

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700226667,00.html

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

And the individual hearings are beginning:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/19/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

Organist · Senior Member

Is this genocide? Because Texas is prosecuting the religious group rather than the individuals, I am inclined to believe that Texas is treading on dangerous grounds, crimes against humanity. Before you break out in laughter, please read how genocide is defined and think about the implications. If they were going after individuals, if they were giving individual hearings, if their intent wasn't the destruction of this religious group, then I would laugh, too. But, they are fulfilling all the criteria for genocide.

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "

arbilad · Head Chef

Organist, I think that you're entirely right - it sounds like they're persecuting them because of their religion. Now, I don't condone in the slightest forcing young girls to marry older men, child abuse, or anything like that. But we have ways of prosecuting the crime, not the group. If someone forced a girl to wed, that's a crime, and there are specific punishments for that. That doesn't seem to be what they're doing in this case.
The danger of this is that, once they have a history of doing this with unpopular groups, such as the FLDS, Ruby Ridge, or Waco, people will be used to it and it will be easy to move on to more popular groups. And let's face it, despite all the good publicity the church has received, we still aren't viewed as the most mainstream folks in the US.
It wouldn't be much of a leap, for instance, to find a holocaust victim who's been baptized posthumously, and call for the government to shut down temples because of it. I don't think it would be successful, but what won't they attempt?

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

Good point, Organist. I'm still amazed that no one in the media has picked up on some of these things as we've talked about. Granted, we are more sensitive due to our history. But, some of the things done are horrible--taking a newborn from its mother?!?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Didn't hic's link right ahead of organist's link to where "individual" hearings were started?

Yeah, I feel the same could happen to other groups pretty easily... being timid can sometimes not be the best approach. I asked my dad about it a while back who burst out, "Where are these people's lawyers? You DO NOT submit to DNA testing!" and sort of blew it off like it was already an unfixable mess. 'Course, my dad's sort of on the opposite end of timid...

And by "timid" - I mean, we're taught to turn the other cheek and stuff, right? What if this really was happening to us? Would we just sit back and wait for justice in the eternities? Would we step up and fight for justice here? How much of a fight would we be willing to hand them?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

This just gets worse and worse.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700227858,00.html

Coco, you'd better just click. I don't want to sum this one up.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Love how the men are so brave and protective... rolleyes

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

Cocobeem wrote:

Love how the men are so brave and protective...

What do you suggest the men do, coco?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Hire better lawyers and PR people for one. Wait, I'm not Coco.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Umm... not run away?

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

They refused the govn to enter without a warrant. From the article, I took it to mean that the men ran from the courthouse 45 mi away TO where the govn was trying to get in. So, I'm not sure what you're saying.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I was referring to the guy in Hildale who was contacted on the phone, specifically.

I don't know... maybe it's the lawyers. I just knoow this would NEVER be happening in my family so long as my husband and dad were alive and kicking. And that's not just cuz my dad's a retired attorney and judge. Isn't it weird that the men don't seem to be targeted at all?

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

I didn't even understand that dude. I mean, seriously, I didn't understand what the article meant by the family service plan or why he wouldn't participate to at least try to see the kids.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357266,00.html

Texas Appellate Court Rules Officials Did Not Have Right to Seize Polygamist Ranch Children

I do believe it's starting to really hit the fan now.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Eeeewps.

Organist · Senior Member

This is good news for those that favor the rule of law over mobocracy.

However, doesn't this mean they'll have to throw out all the evidence they've gathered of actual crimes? DNA tests and so forth? While I strongly disagree with the genocide, abuse and disregard of law shown by Texas, I still want statutory rape prosecuted to the fullest extent. That includes any "legal" marriages with a quick civil annulment. Texas has probably ruined future criminal cases with their abuses, and that is sad.

This situation is going to reinforce the sect's belief that the government is part of Babylon, demonstrated in blazing glory to all who are willing to see. They are going to be very unwilling to cooperate with any future investigations. I wouldn't cooperate.

Early on I had heard that this Texas group was self-sufficient, which was repeated by the media over and over. Does that mean they are not using welfare? By now I'm sure that if there had been any hint of welfare fraud, that it would have been trumpeted by the media. That is another criminal angle to pursue.

Organist · Senior Member

This also makes me grateful to live in a land that attempts to live by the rule of law. When injustices are committed it is wise to appeal to law rather than vigilantism. I feel sorry for the loss of time with children and money, but justice will often prevail in our country.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

3 FLDS Couples Regained Custody Of Children Pending Appeal

http://www.ksat.com/news/16377887/detail.html

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

We haven't talked about those pictures of Warren Jeffs kissing girls who are like 12. I'd been ignoring that part of the story, but I finally had a look at the pictures. That's sooo wrong. My skin gets the creepy crawlies just thinking about them. There was definitely some really wrong stuff going on there. (Not saying how widespread this way inside the FLDS compounds or that CPS had the right to act the way they did.)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah, I saw the pics yesterday for the first time. He's a sick pervert. But, everyone likes to say that there's a lot worse stuff going on out in the world... Whatever.

Organist · Senior Member

They are using those pictures for shock value to justify their whole-scale raid. That picture is disgusting and should prompt quick individual criminal action against the one involved, not a drag-net seizure of children.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360268,00.html

Texas Supreme Court ruled 124 FDLS children be returned to their parents.

arbilad · Head Chef

I don't approve of what the FLDS do (and really bristle when people on the news or talk radio call them "mormons" or "The Church of Latter Day Saints"). But nonetheless I'm glad to see this ruling. People like Jeffs should be in prison. But the individual crimes should be prosecuted, not all children stolen. Everything I heard pointed to the fact that the state stole those children because they didn't like the groups religious beliefs.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

And the judge is using stalling tactics to avoid giving the kids back right away.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360268,00.html

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

He's probably still dry-heaving from the pictures.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Cocobeem wrote:

He's probably still dry-heaving from the pictures.

Dude. It's a SHE. You really ought to get the clicker finger fixed. It's holding you back in life.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh, I thought they got her outta' there already.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Nope. She's been over-ruled a few times, but she's still there.