President Spencer W. Kimball identified who the Ten Virgins are in the Church

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

President Spencer W. Kimball identified who the Ten Virgins are in the Church

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Then again, maybe she won't. evileye

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

You want me to post it for you?

arbilad · Head Chef

I like the "their responsibility was each for themselves" line. We can't live the commandments for another person. We can help them, we can teach them, and we can just be supportive, but living the commandments is, in the end, up to them.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Yes. I don't get the temporal blessings that come from paying tithing because hiccups pays her tithing...hiccups gets them.

arbilad · Head Chef

And I can't go to the Bishop and say "I want to pay Mirkwood's tithing for him this week."

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

mirkwood wrote:

Yes. I don't get the temporal blessings that come from paying tithing because hiccups pays her tithing...hiccups gets them.

And you can't have my spiritual blessings either.

Just to be clear.

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

arbilad wrote:

And I can't go to the Bishop and say "I want to pay Mirkwood's tithing for him this week."

Boy, a guy can always dream though!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You can post it if you want, mirk, but I'll say in advance... I know this thinking of mine is not "motivational" or "inspirational" to most people. In fact, many find it downright depressing. That's why I just said it to mirk.

Here- I'll just post it:
My own personal thought is that the Ten Virgins represent not just Church membership but temple-going members of the Church. People who fully "expect" to have a part in the rewards of the Celestial Kingdom. People who are there waiting so to speak for the coming of the Lord with a positive feeling. (This is not a popular view, I am sure.) That's where the deceit factor comes in. The wise have done three things, according to D&C 45...

1. Been wise and received the truth.
2. Taken the Holy Spirit for their guide.
3. Have not been deceived.

That third one I'm afraid is going to take a lot of people down. But it's not FAIR, we want to say. Just being deceived or ignorant or not as smart? How can we be punished for THAT? It ties in with #2, I think. So many think they can receive personal communication when the need arises and just sort of stay spiritually lukewarm in the mean time. Won't work.

Just my thoughts.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:
The wise have done three things, according to D&C 45...

1. Been wise and received the truth.
2. Taken the Holy Spirit for their guide.
3. Have not been deceived.

And I thought this was a very good observation.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

By far the most common interpretation of the oil is spiritual preparation. But one phrase in the parable makes me think otherwise:

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

Sounds to me that if it were merely spiritual oil, the wise would have given a different answer, such as "We can't...." But they refused. I think that's important.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Interesting also that the foolish had to be told that. Why didn't they just take off for the market as soon as they realized their predicament? Trying to take the short cut?

Also interesting that there seems to be a finite amount of oil. Once it's out, it's out.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I've never understood why those low on oil didn't just sit in the dark around those with their lamps lit, until the bridegroom got closer and they knew they'd have enough to make it the rest of the time. Then they could all light their lamps as soon as he showed up, and everyone could've gone in.

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Any metaphor breaks down if too closely examined. Who knows, maybe they had lines to practice and needed the light to read by.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Maybe because it's a parable? No matter what the oil represents, and it could be many things, the point seems to be that the foolish (under prepared) cannot mooch off the wise.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Ray brings up an interesting point, too. I don't imagine it occurred to them that they'd be without oil... ever. The bridegroom was LATE, see? Unexpected. Not part of the plan. Not anticipated and spelled out for anyone there waiting. Both the foolish and the wise slumbered. What does that mean? Not sure. But when the time came to "do or die" the foolish didn't have what it took. Further, the foolish were not "revealed" until that moment of truth.

Maybe metaphors could eventually break down and not make sense anymore, but I've always felt there are multiply layers of understanding to this parable. I don't think I personally am in any danger of understanding it completely yet.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Either that or they didn't realize they were low on oil until their lamps started going out...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Interesting that the wise prepared for the unexpected. Seems like overkill.

And the response by the Lord always drove home the message for me, too...

The foolish had come back, lamps now trimmed and ready to go and said, "Open to us."
The Lord replies, "I know you not."

No wiggle room. That was the final word. You eternally blew it.

historian · Senior Member

Thank you, Coco!

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

Interesting that the wise prepared for the unexpected. Seems like overkill.

And the response by the Lord always drove home the message for me, too...

The foolish had come back, lamps now trimmed and ready to go and said, "Open to us."
The Lord replies, "I know you not."

No wiggle room. That was the final word. You eternally blew it.

I find that so ineresting. These were not people who did not know to prepare, they knew what to expect, but failed to prepare enough/adequately and by so failing damned themselves.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

And there's more! Get this! They *still* didn't realize their own deception. They came back all trimmed with oil and ready for the shindig and were knocking on the door to be let in! That absolutely blows me away! I mean, I used to think it was just hubris or audacity or something that they'd even have the nerve to do that... "Hey! You forgot ME!" WHAT? Now I'm beginning to see it as an indicator of the depth of their own deception. They had no idea they weren't part of the party until that very moment. And when the Lord says, I know you not, they probably were just confused for a moment. Maybe had this blank stare. Maybe one of them whispered, What's that mean? Sort of like those other people that actually asked, When saw we Thee hungry and fed Thee or naked and clothed Thee, etc.... They simply have missed the mark. They've been going through the motions and yet have altogether fallen short.

Reminds me of the Joseph Smith quote we all know from the Lectures- "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation."

So many are living the Pop Religion. The culture. The tradition. And I don't even think they realize what they're missing.

arbilad · Head Chef

I was just wondering (although I don't really expect an answer). How many people, when they read Coco's post, were thinking, "I'm glad that I'm one of the 5 wise ones and I have lamp oil all ready." And how many were thinking, "Man, I hope that I'm not one of the 5 foolish ones who are deceiving themselves. What else do I need to be doing to ensure that I'm not one of the 5 foolish ones?"

-- Edited by arbilad at 22:14, 2008-03-16

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I was talking about this with dilbert, and he asked a question worth considering. (I'll post it for him since he seems to be either too busy or too virtuous to do it himself.)

As for interpreting the oil as being physical preparation, he asked: "So if you have food storage you are acceptable to the Lord, and if you don't, you are rejected?"

I thought it was a good question.

arbilad · Head Chef

Seeing as how having food storage is a commandment and not a suggestion, I would say that having your food storage or sincerely working as hard as you can to get it is one of the things required to be accepted of the Lord. But there are other things too. For instance, if you're a wife beater the Lord will not accept you even if you have two years of food, fuel, clothing, and a bomb shelter in the back.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

What did oil represent in the OT? What does it represent now? Is there a corelation between the meaning of oil in the OT and the meaning of oil in this parable?

Also, I looked at this parable again and noted something interesting (to me). While the bridgegroom tarried, all the virgins slept. Usually, "sleeping" in the scriptures signifies not being diligent or disobediance. Yet, when the cry was made, the wise virgins awoke, trimmed their lamps and were ready.

I'm in the camp that always thought this scripture was referring to not being prepared spiritually. I did think all the virigins were all members of the church, but the wise ones were ones with true testimonies built upon the rock rather than the foolish virigins who built their testimony on the fluffy things of the church (activities, appearances, jello salad, etc.). Now, I'm revisiting my thoughts on this interpretation.....

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

Ray, I would be interested to know what part specifically you take issue with.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah, ray, out with it. What am I, a mind reader?

I think it's safe to say that if we try to equate the oil with just one commandment, that won't work. There is not just one commandment that will get us into the marriage feast. So as far as dilbert's question... maybe bok could tell us what was "behind" his comment. What was he actually saying, minus the Socratic method of trying to bring us lesser-brains along?

I think you could substitute any commandment in the question. So, if you're debt-free you're acceptable to the Lord? or... So, if you're home teaching's 100% you're acceptable to the Lord? or... (fill in the blank)

Perhaps the oil is some sort of "capacity" or "ability"...

Something that we can call on in times of trial that gets us through... Something we've labored to develop or grow... This, of course, would have outer manifestations to a degree but may also be largely unseen by others.

See, I think as far as interpretation in a strict food storage sense goes, there are plenty of non-LDS (Bear Grylls, etc.) who are way-hay more able to survive when TSHTF. And it really has nothing to do with a testimony of the BOM or temples. They've just honed their skills in this area. I've met a black man in nowhereville, KY, who could live off pretty much anything, I swear... varmints, knew all about plants and herbs, all kinds of cooking/curing/canning/preserving skills ... oh, and by the way, he could put 20 rounds in a 4" circle at 1,000 yards.

So strictly speaking, I think there will be a "survival of the fittest" aspect to many of the trials that are approaching, regardless of one's religious persuasion. That will be the first "weeding out."

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I was just musing upon the deadness of the law.

--Ray

(Luke 12)
16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

22 ¶ And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.

23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.

24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

31 ¶ But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

It seems to me that opinions tend to line up with our circumstances. Those who have a year's supply put away are all for the Oil representing temporal preparedness. Those who don't lean toward the spiritual side.

How convenient. And how very mortal.

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, as usual, you hide your meaning. But I'm going to guess, even though I might end up looking stupid.
If you're saying, Ray, that it isn't necessary to strive towards a year's supply because the Lord will provide for you anyway, you're grossly mistaken. We have been commanded to put up a year's supply, and that when the time comes it will be as vital to our temporal salvation as the ark was to Noah. Yes, the Lord provides for us. He's provided for us for the time when we need it by telling us to do what we can to get our food storage now.
Now, if that's not your meaning, I apologize. My brain's frazzled right now and I'm having trouble understanding your post.
Bok, I think that the ten virgins thing is both spiritual and temporal. After all, the Lord doesn't give us purely temporal commandments.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hey Arbi, that's a great response, well qualified to consider the temporal effects of certain commandments...

But honestly, if I consider the large number of innactive and apostatizing members within my ward boundaries, seldom is it because they failed to get their food storage--but the parable would apply to them... and I think your original response to dilbert was very one-sided... If I consider all the people I've known who have died and done so disaffected from the Lord, having never really gotten to know him, or having tried but then fallen away, it is seldom if ever because of their food storage. (Heck, I've been able to convince wholly innactive members of the church to work on a food storage plan for their family, when I couldn't get them to even pray!)

But hey... your experience in the church is different, and to each their own...

--Ray

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

bokbadok wrote:

It seems to me that opinions tend to line up with our circumstances. Those who have a year's supply put away are all for the Oil representing temporal preparedness. Those who don't lean toward the spiritual side.

How convenient. And how very mortal.

Good observation, though I will add that I believe this is about both aspects. Of course if someone has prepared spiritually they will at the very least be working on temporal preparedness.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

rayb wrote:

But honestly, if I consider the large number of innactive and apostatizing members within my ward boundaries, seldom is it because they failed to get their food storage--but the parable would apply to them...

Interesting point.

Currently, I doubt any serious number of people have left the church because they have failed to get food storage. That doesn't mean that there might not still eternal consequences for those who stay in the church and yet fail to get food storage.

Also, at this point, if one doesn't get their food storage and they find themselves without enough to eat, then they know they can turn to the church for help. (That might actually be a disincentive to leaving the church in some circumstances or an incentive to come back.) We are not at the point where calamity has taken away the church's ability to provide assistance, so the real immediate consequences for not having food storage aren't being felt yet.

It's true that we are all at different places in our spiritual and temporal development and that it takes time to accept and implement all these improvements in our lives. For me personally, I've been prompted that now is the time to get going on the temporal side of preparedness. Roughly a year and a half ago I was actually prompted that it wasn't the time to focus on longterm food storage. Considering all the changes that have happened in that time, I think I understand why that was the case.

However, now that it's time to get movin' on it, if I was to ignore those promptings, eventually the Holy Ghost is gonna stop reminding me about it and will end up withdrawing somewhat due to my own disobedience. And that is why I actually can't see separating out this parable into temporal and spiritual preparedness. It is all one issue to me. I see the oil as representing the fruits of obedience. The fruits of obedience will be manyfold. They could include a change of heart that gives me the strength to resist certain temptations or endure certain hardships through reliance on the Lord. (Knowing how to rely on the Lord is a really important ability if you think about it.) Or being able to eat when others are struggling to do so.

That brings me to another point. I'm not going to assume that my food storage is "mine all mine" in the event of calamity. Everything I have in this life is on loan from Heavenly Father except my own agency (which makes that the most significant thing I can give to Him, btw.) I figure the Lord will let me know what to do in the case when calamity happens. (So, I'm saying that I refuse to see that parable as saying that I specifically should plan to not share with other people who couldn't or didn't prepare, because that judgement isn't mine.)

There is still wisdom in looking at the possibility that there may be robbers and looters who would prey upon others in such a time and planning for that.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I really haven't known people to leave the Church over food storage either. I'll say again, the temporal preparedness side of things is not just about Mormons. The simple law of "you don't eat, you die" really can apply to everyone. And this will be the first seperation.

I think the Lord may just be trying to help us *survive* - you know, have a longer probationary time in which to repent... funny how some get so worked up over that.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

By the way, those scriptures ray quoted, especially the guy with the barns, has always fascinated me as well. I've always thought the second part about take no thought for food, etc. was directed at the disciples as they were leaving to preach on missions, but I may be wrong... I'll be back after I do more

arbilad · Head Chef

I don't think that people will leave the church over food storage (except in weird, rare cases). I didn't think that was the point. We're talking about the parable of the ten virgins, who, we are told, represent members of the church who believe that they are doing what they need to. Amongst members of the church, there is very poor fulfillment of the commandment to have food storage.
And I also pointed out that, while necessary, food storage isn't enough. You need to be striving to live a righteous life in other aspects too.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

And just so we know the context of the man storing up in barns ... a man had asked Jesus to step in to pressure his brother into dividing the inheritance with him. Jesus declined and was apparently disappointed in the man's focus on material things. Covetousness, to be exact.

Luke 12:13 ¶ And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?
15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a mans life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: etc... etc...

ray... which dead law were you musing on? I don't get what your saying. I am also wondering, ray... and feel free to blow this question off, cuz it's borderline being really nosy... is there some resentment you hold toward the whole food storage thing? Do you see a lot of hypocrisy there or some other issue about it that sort of taints the whole subject for you?

hic- two things. People may *think* they can turn to the Church for help when they don't have enough to eat. I think Pres. Faust made a statement that very strongly discouraged this type of thinking. Mirk had it for his sig line at one time, I think. This may fall under the "deception" factor. When calamity strikes, you will then realize the error of your ways.

Also, I really liked the point that the Holy Ghost will prompt and prompt, but when you are not listening, He will withdraw. That shows the Lord's great mercy, doesn't it?

I, too, have been prompted toward greater food storage over the last 6-ish months. Wheat specifically, and I had no idea the prices of wheat were going up. Just goes to show that someone who is not "in the know" can still be prompted to do some thing when the time is most agreeable to do so.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

There are many quotes along this line:

The Church cannot be expected to provide for every one of its millions of members in case of public or personal disaster. --James E. Faust

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I wasn't meaning to suggest that the church could provide help for everyone, but just that currently they do provide help for a certain number. This is liable to change at any time when calamity happens and stuff runs out.

arbilad · Head Chef

I think that, pretty much, if you follow everything we're told to do (pray, read scriptures, attend the temple, get food storage, etc.) you'll be on the right path. I don't think that the path to the Celestial Kingdom is difficult to understand. The Lord has tried to make it as clear as possible. It's in the implementation that we fall short. Some don't have faith to forgive someone. Some don't have faith to pay their tithing. Some don't have enough faith to get food storage.
We've been told clearly what we must do to avoid being one of the foolish virgins; the trick is developing enough faith to follow that path.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Coco, I think those were some excellent observations, thank you.

I firmly believe that the parable is both spiritual and temporal.

As to the temporal portion and preparedness, we are also not run faster than we have strength, to take it a step at a time. We are to put aside as best we can, the Lord knows what we can do, and expects us to have faith. I do not think this at all unlike paying tithing. You pay it, even when it is tough, and leave the rest to the Lord. I think key on this is to be constantly working towards your supply.

Spiritual preparation is no different, you cannot achieve it all at once, it is a step by step process, and unlike temporal may never achieve it on earth, but will finish our progression elsewhere.

I remember reading a quote from Ezra T. Benson on Zion's Camp to the effect that the Lord might well use a famine or some such to cleanse the church. Nephi stated that the by small and simple things are great things brought to pass. If we obey a small temporal commandment, we can handle more. It is very difficult to be spiritual when you are hungry.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Here's the famine quote...
"Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church-and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing-a famine in this land of one year's duration could wipe out a large percentage of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers. Yet we cannot say we have not been warned." -Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference, April 1965, as a member of the Twelve Apostles

Interesting, his use of words. I like to see where a certain word is used throughout the scriptures in different contexts. Take the word "slothful." ETB almost makes you feel if you don't have storage, you've been slothful. Another scripture has that word slothful in it, probably the same one that popped into your heads as well...
"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward." D&C 58:26

Here I find the further defining of words interesting. The Lord here gives us one definition of slothful as "not wise." They seemed to be used interchangeably in this scripture. So... just something to think about when we're wondering if we're "wise" or not. (And ftr, I always think I'm foolish, that's why I harp on all this so much.) We can ask ourselves in what areas have we been "slothful"?

And that's exactly right, val, we are not to run faster than we have strength. And I believe that the Lord will let us know He is pleased with our efforts, if indeed He is.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

coco: I don't think I resent my food storage... as I'm currently using it, and am very grateful for the wise council I've received so that my family has yet to really suffer any financial hardship.

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

What's the dead law you muse over?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

ray not talking to coco?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Huh? I wasn't talking about a dead law. I was talking about a scripture. If you would look it up, the phrase is used in reference to how the Jews had a law given them, but missed the whole point of why it was given. I thought it applied well to the fact that taking a narrow interpretation of a parable, would be a similarly misguided attempt to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Since that, Arbi's explained he didn't take a narrow interpretation, and therefore has rendered the point moot.

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 20:51, 2008-03-18

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You were talking about a dead scripture? Okay, never mind. I won't try to understand what you're saying. You're giving me a twitch...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Coco: All law is dead. It's the very nature of law.