Are you a conspiracy theorist?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Are you a conspiracy theorist?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I started out as "small-scale" but it seems the more I read about stuff, the more I'm becoming "grand-scale." I don't know. Then I'll hit some book by some whack and then I'm back down to "small-scale" again.

I was reading something about how the War in Heaven was about freedom and how that has continued into this life. For the first time I realized how Satan would really want a hand in political events. How he can really control the lives of many people through their leaders. It was suddenly so obvious, like, "Oh my gosh! It's been right under my nose all along!" And it seems to be working well for him... quite a number of people look at politics as a "subject" that they may or may not be interested in. I think it should be studied and learned by anyone who is concerned with keeping our moral agency.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

I am not a conspiracy theorist.

I believe the top world leaders are constantly doing important things that never hit the public eye, even though it impacts our lives.

I believe the top world leaders' public statements rarely align with their true motivations, decisions, and convictions.

I believe public opinion is shaped to a great degree by what is found in our major news outlets. I also believe what makes it to these outlets is controlled to a certain extent by a small minority of people.

But no, I don't believe any of these realities are due to aliens, bilderbergers, the illuminati, secret combinations, communists, elvis, the trilateral commission, the rulers of the military-industrial complex, the world's elite, masons, or reptilians.

To me, "they" is just another word, which is rarely accompanied by X-files background music.

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 12:38, 2008-02-25

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Were the whackjobs in the BOM conspiracists?

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Are evil people conspiring. All the time. But is there some Illuminati/Freemason/Alien/(insert group name here) world wide conspiracy going on as portrayed on T.V. shows like the X Files. Hardly.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

It is not a theory.

I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (Ezra Taft Benson, during the very same time that the world was celebrating the collapse of communism Ensign, p. 87. November 1988.)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You're right, mirk. Where else do LDS people even get the notion if not from the BOM?

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

mirkwood wrote:
A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (Ezra Taft Benson, November 1988.)

Since:
1. He didn't clarify or elaborate,
2. He never really said anything else about it in the remaining 5 years of his presidency,
3. No prophet in the almost two decades that came after him said much of anything of that nature,
4. We can assume that the leadership of the LDS church has not been subverted by said secret combination,
5. Not everything that comes out of a prophet's mouth, even in a General Conference address, is scripture, or even inspired counsel,
6. The former Soviet Union remains weakened, fragmented, at each other's throats, and most of last era's communist/socialist/facist elements in American society have retooled themselves into weaker forms of militant environmentalism and far leftist progressives,
7. Rhetoric set forth by people these days, trying to convince me that the bad guys won and I currently have no freedom, is severely lacking in many foundational building blocks of common sense and logical reasoning,

Therefore:
As a completely free, rational, thinking individual, in mostly full posession of his wits and sanity;

With no short list of examples of hearing things I don't want to hear, and dealing with things I don't want to deal with, and refusing to ignore things I've desparately wanted to ignore;

I hereby declare that I am not only free to, but supported by common sense when I, interpret his counsel in one of the following ways:

1. We beat that particular evil, whatever it's nature, and won.
2. It was some non-sensational, non-xfilesesque, non-melodramatic secret combination along the lines of the porn industry swiftly moving into the internet, or the rise of militant Islamic terrorists, or any number of real, well understood, well documented evils that have indeed attempted (and sometimes succeeded) in robbing us of some of our freedoms.

Let the entire online community of approximately two and a half dozen people who read my blog or this thread bear witness that this is my official proclamation on the matter, and it ain't likely to change any time soon, no matter how good the x-files music is at awakening my emotional state.

L the heck M

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 18:54, 2008-02-25

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Well, let's see, I found a few more quotes since ETB's days. Some of your assertions are interesting, like the comment about statements on GC. I guess I can plan on several hours of free time during the next Conference because I can't trust that what I'm hearing is really doctrinal. rolleyes

I guess the Ensign is out too. rolleyes

M. Russell Ballard, Standing for Truth and Right, Ensign, Nov 1997, 37

The Book of Mormon teaches that secret combinations engaged in crime present a serious challenge, not just to individuals and families but to entire civilizations. Among todays secret combinations are gangs, drug cartels, and organized crime families. The secret combinations of our day function much like the Gadianton robbers of the Book of Mormon times. They have secret signs and code words. They participate in secret rites and initiation ceremonies. Among their purposes are to murder, and plunder, and steal, and commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness, contrary to the laws of their country and also the laws of their God. 4

If we are not careful, todays secret combinations can obtain power and influence just as quickly and just as completely as they did in Book of Mormon times. Do you remember the pattern? The secret combinations began among the more wicked part of society, but eventually seduced the more part of the righteous until the whole society was polluted. 5

L. Tom Perry, Blessings Resulting from Reading the Book of Mormon, Ensign, Nov 2005, 6

Why is the reading of the Book of Mormon so important to us today? It is because the major writers of the Book of Mormon fully understood that their writings were primarily for the people of a future generation rather than for the people of their own generation. Moroni wrote to our generation, I speak unto you as if ye were present (Morm. 8:35).

The Book of Mormon is a voice of warning to this generation. See how vividly it describes conditions on the earth today:

And no one need say [these records] shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity (Morm. 8:2631).

Horacio A. Tenorio, Let Us Build Fortresses, Ensign, Nov 1994, 23

In our world of escalating crisis, where the fraternal wars, corruption, secret combinations, and immorality are reminiscent of the wickedness described in the Book of Mormon,

Gordon B. Hinckley, The Times in Which We Live, Ensign, Nov 2001, 72

The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gadianton robbers, a vicious, oath-bound, and secret organization bent on evil and destruction. In their day they did all in their power, by whatever means available, to bring down the Church, to woo the people with sophistry, and to take control of the society. We see the same thing in the present situation.

I don't know, maybe I've missed something here, but it seems like they still talk about it, just not as much/often. Personally I find it hard to deny the words of the Brethren, whether in or out of conference. I do know that anything that they put in print is well thought out in advance and meets their approval.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I believe there are levels of understanding just as there are levels of righteousness. One does not often receive a personal comprehension pertaining to the deeper doctrine when little or no effort has been proffered.

I believe the subject of secret combinations, world government and political history is a deep, often complex subject as one begins to examine it and attempts to discern fact from fiction, as indicated in this well-known quote by Joseph Smith, "The things of God are of deep import: and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out." (HC 3:295)

I believe that we are in a fallen, probationary state. Any rationale, wits or sanity we possess comes from our aligning our thoughts, desires and deeds with those of our Creator. There are many "free thinkers" going to Hell.

I finally believe that the deeper, more complex things of God will not be spoon-fed to the masses.

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

So, do ya'll think that "secret" means that people are unaware of them?

I read Pres Benson's words as well as the other GAs words that mirk quoted and think that "secret" means that the members of said society are sworn to secrecy or that they have secret things going on. Not that it's unknown to others. For example, radical Islamic terrorists. We know about them--we know their tactics, beliefs, abilities, etc. But, there may be some things we don't know (maybe they have a secret knock or password to get into their inner workings).

So, I think mirk and LM both have it right. I believe the Brethern that the BOM is for our day and that there are secret combinations in practice. I believe that the author of these organizations is rampant and working hard to push his agenda. I also believe that to promote fear and panic by focusing and quoting isolated statements will create...fear and panic. Something that the BOM and the Lord does not want for us.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I don't think that "secret" always means no one knows about them. It is the way they operate and to be a conspiracy does not have to mean there is no knowledge of it. I think the term "secret combinations" has become a term of art to describe those opposed to freedom, openness. Most states laws have what are called "sunshine laws", basically requirements that meetings and such must be open in some degree to public scrutiny.

Personally, I think the term "secret" could now be interpreted to mean the ignorance of the masses. In the BoM times, it seems people were quite aware of the Gadiantons. I think the term could be interpreted as those seeking for power and control. The Bilderbergers, Bohemian Grove, Council on Foreign Relations, the Tri-Lateral Commission, etc. they all exist, with some amount of cross-over I would imagine. Information on these groups is quite easy to find. The Bilderbergers meet every year and the attendees and locations are often reported on, it is the content and agenda that are not let out. The CFR has been instrumental in pushing forward the North American Union.

During the Clinton era, Hillary tried to do things in secret and was not an elected official. Hitler in his rise to power used the very system he wanted to destroy to gain power. I think Obama or Hillary are intent on circumventing rights and abrogating freedoms for power, McCain maybe only slightly less so.

The thing is most people are content to not have to think about such things, or think that many of these groups/people are not bad and care about the people, they are blissfully willing to let such go, such thinking. Afterall, there are more interesting things like Survivor, and American Idol, or seeing what the celebs wore at the Oscars.

arbilad · Head Chef

LM, I see several flaws in your reasoning. Mirk pointed out a lot of them. One that stands out to me is that the secret combination that Ezra Taft Benson talked about was said to be growing in influence. The Soviet Union at that time was waning and on the way out. And there is not any "great evil" that can really be said to have been increasing in influence when he made that statement that has now been eradicated or severely weakened. So it follows, logically, that the growing secret combination he mentioned is still around and growing.
What's more, "growing secret combinations" are not eradicated by apathy. In other words, it doesn't go away on its own. So, what evil secret combination have we, as a country, banded together and eradicated since that statement was made? None, that I can tell. Gangs are ever on the rise. Militant Islam is stronger than ever. The Mafia is still around. And the conspiracies seeking to overturn the government are still there.

Pt314 · Senior Member

mirkwood wrote:

Well, let's see, I found a few more quotes since ETB's days. Some of your assertions are interesting, like the comment about statements on GC. I guess I can plan on several hours of free time during the next Conference because I can't trust that what I'm hearing is really doctrinal. I guess the Ensign is out too.

I am quite sure that isn't what he meant.
We sustain these people as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, but that doesn't mean that they are perfect. Joseph Smith constantly was trying to get that across. God works with imperfect people to do his work.

As to what is taught in General Conference, it is near certain that it is true doctrine. (Today anyway, in the early church, General Conferences were more speculative. Anti-mormons like to pick out stuff out of these addresses)

Secret Combinations do indeed exist, and it will be our downfall if we let them get over us. I can think of many groups that fit in this category, many of which have been mentioned by the prophets (Gangs, terrorist groups, political groups, and others.) I also feel that the 'Progressive Athiest Elite' in many of our universitities, all levels of our judiciary, the State Department, and the U.N. would count.

I am not so sure about the CFR, Trilateral Commision, or Bilderbirgers as a whole, although I think there are definately elements there.

-- Edited by Pt314 at 09:00, 2008-02-26

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

On kind of a side note... once in a while someone will bring up the words "fear" and "panic" and assert that those who quote certain scriptures or latter-day leaders are trying to instill fear and/or panic in others. Where does this thinking come from? Is Jesus Christ trying to instill fear and panic in us when we read His prophecies of the last days? Doesn't more knowledge lead to more power? As we grow in knowledge and wisdom, we are no longer uncertain or *fearful* because we know what is coming, what to expect. (If we believe, of course.) There is no need for fear or panic because we can exercise faith in the words of the Lord and His servants. Why would someone feel fear when the Lord is trying to teach them something?

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

mirkwood wrote:
Some of your assertions are interesting, like the comment about statements on GC. I guess I can plan on several hours of free time during the next Conference because I can't trust that what I'm hearing is really doctrinal. I guess the Ensign is out too.

I find my assertion interesting too - and hoped someone would want to examine it a bit more closely.

Here's where I'm coming from:
Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order. - President Gordon B. Hinckley, To the Boys and to the Men, Ensign, Nov. 1998

All of the proceedings of this conference will appear in a subsequent issue of the Ensign and Liahona. ... They are the products of much prayer and meditation and are well worthy of careful consideration.
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, "Closing Remarks" Ensign, October 2007

We hope that you will use the May edition of the Church magazines as a text for your family home evenings, to review that which has been spoken in this conference. What has been said by each of the speakers represents his or her prayerful attempt to impart knowledge that will inspire and cause all who have heard it to stand a little taller and be a little better.
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, "Closing Remarks" Ensign, April 2007
In my mind, there's a difference between a "prayerful attempt" and Thus-Sayeth-The-Lord Scripture.

Your mileage may vary. I'm not out to convince anyone here - if you wish to consider everything said in GC scripture, I have no problem.

Among todays secret combinations are gangs, drug cartels, and organized crime families.
...

I don't know, maybe I've missed something here, but it seems like they still talk about it, just not as much/often. Personally I find it hard to deny the words of the Brethren, whether in or out of conference. I do know that anything that they put in print is well thought out in advance and meets their approval.

I think we have little to disagree on. I did not say that secret combinations do not exist. I'm just rejecting the illuminati-esque x-files background music-esque trilateral bilderberger-type notions of SC's. I specifically mentioned the porn industry swiftly moving into the internet, or the rise of militant Islamic terrorists, or any number of real, well understood, well documented evils that have indeed attempted (and sometimes succeeded) in robbing us of some of our freedoms. I'm content to add gangs, organized crime, and drug cartels to the list.

And nowhere did I say anything about denying the words of the Bretheren. We're just talking about how to interpret what it is they're saying.

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 11:46, 2008-02-26

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

When I think of secret combinations I guess I think more of "power" in the sense of corrupt people being able to influence the masses. I don't think so much of the little imps viewing pornography or doing their deeds in the dark. There are all types of sin. But secret combinations I think are something distinct, at least how they speak in the BOM...

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 12:20, 2008-02-26

arbilad · Head Chef

And nowhere did I say anything about denying the words of the Bretheren. We're just talking about how to interpret what it is they're saying.

I think it's a better idea to understand what the brethren are saying, rather than interpreting it.
When someone says "Not everything the Prophet says is revelation" it gets my feelers up in much the same way that it would for an airport security checker if someone said "I'm not carrying a bomb". Neither one is a certain indicator of danger, but it still gets you thinking.
Granted, if the prophet orders a t-bone steak at a restaurant and you overhear, that doesn't mean that you need to order a t-bone steak. But the Lord has told us that he wouldn't allow the prophet to steer us wrong.
If a prophet starts off a statement by saying "I testify" he's really trying to get an important point across. Prophets don't use the words "I testify" lightly.
Besides, I'm willing to offer the prophet the benefit of the doubt. If Pres. Monson gets up in this priesthood session and tells the men to all start wearing skirts and dresses, then I'm going clothes shopping that Monday. Never mind the fact that I think that men look stupid in skirts and dresses. Never mind the fact that, given my body structure, I would most probably look repellant in skirts and dresses, and have trouble finding employment. I don't think that Pres. Monson would say something like that lightly, and I'm willing to follow the advice until I get a testimony of it.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

LoudmouthMormon wrote:
We're just talking about how to interpret what it is they're saying.

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 11:46, 2008-02-26

Ok, I can accept that as a clarification on your position.

I still don't see any refutation of anything ETB had to say on SC, or a refutation of the currnet leadership not saying anything or much of anything since. If you don't accept the idea of the CFR/Bilderberger/TRC type SC, may I suggest you read None Dare Call It Conspiracy? It is available right here: http://reactor-core.org/none-dare.html

A quick excerpt from Chapter Two:

Everyone knows that Adolph Hitler existed. No one disputes that. The terror and destruction that this madman inflicted upon the world are universally recognized. Hitler came from a poor family which had absolutely no social position. He was a high school drop-out and nobody ever accused him of being cultured. Yet this man tried to conquer the world. During his early career he sat in a cold garret and poured onto paper his ambitions to rule the world. We know that.

Similarly, we know that a man named Vladimir Ilich Lenin also existed. Like Hitler, Lenin did not spring from a family of social lions. The son of a petty bureaucrat, Lenin, who spent most of his adult life in poverty, has been responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of your fellow human beings and the enslavement of nearly a billion more. Like Hitler, Lenin sat up nights in a dank garret scheming how he could conquer the world. We know that too.

Is it not theoretically possible that a billionaire could be sitting, not in a garret, but in a penthouse, in Manhattan, London or Paris and dream the same dream as Lenin and Hitler? You will have to admit it is theoretically possible. Julius Caesar, a wealthy aristocrat, did. And such a man might form an alliance or association with other like-minded men, might he not? Caesar did. These men would be superbly educated, command immense social prestige and be able to pool astonishing amounts of money to carry out their purposes. These are advantages that Hitler and Lenin did not have.

It is difficult for the average individual to fathom such perverted lust for power. The typical person, of whatever nationality, wants only to enjoy success in his job, to be able to afford a reasonably high standard of living complete with leisure and travel. He wants to provide for his family in sickness and in health and to give his children a sound education. His ambition stops there. He has no desire to exercise power over others, to conquer other lands or peoples, to be a king. He wants to mind his own business and enjoy life. Since he has no lust for power, it is difficult for him to imagine that there are others who have others who march to a far different drum. But we must realize that there have been Hitlers and Lenins and Stalins and Caesars and Alexander the Greats throughout history. Why should we assume there are no such men today with perverted lusts for power? And if these men happen to be billionaires is it not possible that they would use men like Hitler and Lenin as pawns to seize power for themselves?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Not to mention how often people use conspiracies to push their own personal agendae. So if there is a conspiracy, who's to say that you get it? WHo's to say that this or that candidate has any connection whatsoever to it?

I think most people are sensible enough to see that those folks selling food storage products as one's patriotic duty, for example, or selling amway, or selling something, are trying to capitalize on a general sense of fear and mistrust of one's neighbors and are just as suspect as those seeking power just for the jollies of holding the globe in their hand and crushing it with maniacal laughter.

--Ray

Organist · Senior Member

Two of the biggest "secret" groups that have nearly or completely ripened the United States for destruction:

Pornography - This is everywhere, in all the magizines, on all the major TV networks, on bilboards, it is broadcast blatantly in public.

TV - all the popular shows make it popular to sleep around, move in with someone, engage in homosexual acts, mock religion, lie, steal, and kill

These have become so pervasive, that to complain about them gets even ordinary people to look at you funny.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hahah!

arbilad · Head Chef

That's hilarious!

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Organist · Senior Member

You know, I wasn't able to watch that video in the VA hospital library, a government facility, but am able to watch it elsewhere. I bet our shadowyoverlords are behind that.