Secret Combinations

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Secret Combinations

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Feeling left out? :)

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The poll question does not match what some people may wonder if you are alluding to by the wording selection in your opening post.

Agreement that certain people or groups of people are parts of Secret Combinations is a whole different thing (that is identification of Secret Combinations) than agreeing that Secret Combinations exist.

Secret Combinations have always and will always exist where the people do not live as Zion and where Satan can have reign in the hearts of people. That is fact according to scripture and the words of the prophets.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

The question is only complicated if you make it that way. This is an LDS messag board, we all know what a secret combination is.

dianoia · Senior Member

I believe they exist, but I also believe that "secret" means just that.

So for me speculating doesn't make a lot of sense.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

My favorite secret combination is orange chicken, chow mein, and pork fried rice. Wait, that's special combination.

Of course secret combinations still exist.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I believe Al Qaeda is a secret combination based upon murder and infiltration and terror. Heck, they even retreat into the wilderness... :)

--Ray

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I believe they are absolutely in existance and I don't think a lot of them are all that secret. They were not that secret in the BoM, sounds like they were common knowledge, especially when all the Nephites were gathered into one spot to fight the robbers.

For example, some not so secret ones:

CFR
UN
Al-Quaida
Mafia
street gangs
MS13
Masons
Communism/Socialism/Democrats
Aryan Nations
Black Panthers
La Raza/Aztlan
NAACP
etc.

They are all seeking power in one form or another, restrict freedom and control.

Some more secretive ones:

Skull and Bones (more a special group at Yale, includes the Bushes and Kerry)
Bilderberger group
Trilateral Commission
Bohemian Grove
Illuminati (a lot of speculation whether they still exist or not)

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Don't forget the Pentaveret.

arbilad · Head Chef

Valhalla, you are quite the perspicacious person.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

I voted yes. However, my interpretation of the term is much less melodramatic and national-treasureistic (and Pentaveretistic) than the next guy's. It doesn't need to be good fiction.

Example: Many street gangs have so much in common with how the BoM describes secret combinations, you might as well give them the title.

Anywhere you get a group of people secretly conspiring to do works of evil for personal gain, you got secret combinations. Whether they're sucessful or not. Whether their goals are world domination or running a prostitution ring or selling drugs or scamming their favorite casino.

LM

arbilad · Head Chef

Ah, LM, but one feature a street gang does not share with the Gadiantons is a desire to control the government. True, they are definitely secret combinations. The guy who founded one of the major gangs in California didn't tell the police anything about them, even that he was a member of that gang, even though he was going to be executed. So yes, it is a secret combination. But the BoM tells us to worry about the ones that want control of the government.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Masons? Really?

My dad was a 32nd degree in the Scottish rite and a Knight Templar in the York rite. He said he didn't "need it" anymore once he found the Gospel.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Speaking of the Jaredites and Nephites...

Ether 8:18-26
18 And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God;
19 For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.
20 And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.
21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.
22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.
23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gainand the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.

Ether 10:33 And in the days of Com there began to be robbers in the land; and they adopted the old plans, and administered oaths after the manner of the ancients, and sought again to destroy the kingdom.

Ether 11:15 And it came to pass that there arose a rebellion among the people, because of that secret combination which was built up to get power and gain;

What I personally find interesting in reading in the Book of Mormon about these groups is that their ultimate goal was not to overthrow the government or laws... that was just one of the means to their ultimate end... to get gain and to legitimize their robbings and murders and other illicit activities by which they got the gain and power. No where are groups like the Nehorites (the false church built upon priestcraft) or the Kingmen labeled a secret combination in the Book of Mormon (that I remember), even though they both had severe negative impacts on Nephite society and righteousness of the people. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems even Moroni made a distinction of some sort.

Mirk put forth the statement that we all know, since we're LDS, what a secret combination is. I'm not trying to take a contrarian viewpoint. I am just wondering if we all are on the same page in knowing what a secret combination is, how is it we don't all label or view the same groups as secret combinations?

In the highlighted area of Ether 8:22 above, is it possible the italicized portion refers to the nation upholding the secret combinations, not the secret combinations themself? Possible modern day examples... Taliban Afghanistan... Sudan... Somalia... Baathist Iraq... the PLO... Lebanon... Khmer Rouge Cambodia... Congo... Rwanda... Ivory Coast... Sierra Leone... much of the conflict in the Balkans... Noriega's Panama... communist revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, etc. etc.

In other words, what I'm saying is mere existence of a secret combination is not going to be the downfall of a nation. It is the nation using and supporting (embracing) secret combinations to get gain and power. I doubt there is a nation on the earth that does not have secret combinations within it. But, only a few actively court them and sanction them and do not try to fight them. And history and scripture tells us what happens to those nations if they do not turn around... the nation is destroyed (not utter destruction like the Jaredites and Nephites... that only comes after having the fulness of the Gospel and turning against it).

Okay, I'll be quite now... I'm just sharing my thoughts on the topic. Not lecturing or anything.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

I think I share much of Cat's views here.

I'll have to go dig up the pamphlet I got 10 years ago at a Sunday fireside run by some Gang Unit Taskforce guy in SLC. He cited all sorts of scripture to answer the question 'what is a secret combination'.

LM

arbilad · Head Chef

Well, Cat, ask yourself this: was there a secret combination in the BoM that didn't seek political power? In fact, the Gadiantons were formed just cause some dude wanted to get on the judgment seat.
The Jaredites had problems with secret combinations seeking government power as well.
There may exist secret combinations that don't seek government power, and there may be those who openly seek government power (and thus are not secret), but every secret combination in the BoM, which is a warning for our time, sought political power.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Cocobeem wrote:

Masons? Really?

My dad was a 32nd degree in the Scottish rite and a Knight Templar in the York rite. He said he didn't "need it" anymore once he found the Gospel.

I do view them as such, not necessarily malevolent, but the way they operate. They use essentially the temple ceremony, mimicing it. I know of Joseph Smith as a Mason and where supposedly the antis claim he received the endowment, but I believe the Masons took it of old. But mainly I see it as them helping each other get gain. I would understand why your father would not need it anymore once joining the church. To me, when a group operates like this, it does not pass the smell test to me.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Arbi, I do not deny that the secret combinations of the Book of Mormon sought political power.

What I said was that political power was not their ultimate goal. As shown in Helaman chapter 6, it seems that as to aide in acceptance and solidification amongst the people, the political "power" was to help "legitimize" them (Moroni describes it as having "seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them..."). From the beginning of the movements, the assasinations and attacks on the governments is more or less a symptom of their work to destroy all that opposes them... to create a vacuum of chaos in which they can establish themselves without fear of being hunted down and prosecuted according to the law.

There are many, many groups and "agendas" out there today that are in the process of wresting the law and trying to use it to "destroy" that which opposes them.

arbilad · Head Chef

The reason why they seek power is not important. The fact exists that they do, and we should guard against that. If someone kills you, it doesn't matter whether he was a sociopath or got angry because you cut him off in traffic. You're still dead. Similarly, it doesn't matter why secret combinations seek governmental power.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Val, if the masons are a secret combination, doesn't that make mormons one?

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I don't believe the Masons were mimicking the temple endowment. Masons go back much further. We have however, been accused of mimicking them. The similarities are undeniable. Hyrum Smith, Newel K. Whitney, Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young were all masons. Joseph became a Master Mason in March of 1842, two months prior to administering the endowment for the first time. Interestingly, the first endowments took place in the same location as his initiation into masonry. More than 1300 LDSs became Master Masons before they fled Nauvoo.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

The supposition is, and my belief as well, is that the ordinances and signs were discovered by some during the occupation of Jerusalem, or from even before and were copied and used by those who eventually became the Masons.

No, ray, I don't think it makes the Church one. We are not using it for gain or for power.

DaKnife · Senior Member

The reason why they seek power is not important. The fact exists that they do, and we should guard against that.
By that logic we should guard against anyone who seeks any public office, or any organization that ever attempts to influence public opinion(The church does this on occasion is that bad?). The seeking of Power is not bad or evil, it's what is planned to do with that power. Do they seek to subvert the Constitution, or do they seek to uphold and strengthen it and the country.

The Mason's I've known were very patriotic, they were the first to be involved in any public improvment activities/events and so on.

But my overall reason for replying is the quoted comment. Merely seeking to gain political power is not bad. Much good is and has been done by those who have sought and attained power.

LEVE · Veteran Member

It may be well to review:

Secret Combinations and Flaxen Cords: Anti-Masonic Rhetoric and the Book of Mormon

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Any especially relevant or intensely cool parts you'd like to quote for us?

LEVE · Veteran Member

And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords foreverPersuitte, Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon, 195

Organist · Senior Member

I would definately watch the power of the church in political realms. Could I go back in time, I'm sure that I would have butted against Brigham Young and Joseph Smith many times with regards to church's involvement in politics.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Would the Masons be a secret combination if they were dedicated to the preservation of human liberties, living upright and decent lives, and individual freedom?

The masons were a HUGE part of founding the USA. They held a lot of influence once upon a time. The Mormons were naturally drawn to any nonjudgemental entity that would help them to ensure their peaceful coexistence, and at the time Masonry didn't conflict with the need to survive. The Masons have continued to decline in influence however, and I believe they served their purpose as a part of the triggering of memes that Joseph Smith needed to encounter in order to fully restore the living Gospel and insure its continuance... but that's all crazy talk. :)

I believe the Endowment Ceremony held/holds many similarities to many other coronation ceremonies akin to the type that occur before the crowning of a king or queen. That sort of thing in a temporal sense would "appear" to be seeking power, but obviously the Endowment is about the obtaining of heavenly powers, not earthly...

ANd there... you've gotten me into speculation mode, which I seldom enter cuz well... it just leads to whacky-mormon syndrome.

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

DaKnife wrote:

The reason why they seek power is not important. The fact exists that they do, and we should guard against that.
By that logic we should guard against anyone who seeks any public office, or any organization that ever attempts to influence public opinion(The church does this on occasion is that bad?). The seeking of Power is not bad or evil, it's what is planned to do with that power. Do they seek to subvert the Constitution, or do they seek to uphold and strengthen it and the country.

The Mason's I've known were very patriotic, they were the first to be involved in any public improvment activities/events and so on.

But my overall reason for replying is the quoted comment. Merely seeking to gain political power is not bad. Much good is and has been done by those who have sought and attained power.

That's a non sequitur DaKnife. Just because it can be good for righteous individuals to obtain power doesn't mean that it's good for secret organizations to seek power. After all, that's what I was talking about - guarding against secret organization seeking power. Or really any organization, for that matter. I don't want the Republican party in power, even though there are Republicans that I would like to see have power.

The church doesn't seek power when it influences public opinion - it gains no power, for instance, from fighting legalized gambling in Utah. But even if the church wanted power of some form or another, at least they're an open organization. Secret organizations are not subject to open scrutiny, voting for their leadership, etc. There are no checks and balances.

So, I go back to my original statement. We should guard against secret combinations seeking power.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

What about guarding against the non-secret combinations (e.g. the limited distribution, for internal use only, and confidential combinations) seeking power? Or the combination of alter egos with secret identities seeking super-hero power? Or the ever growing number of lock owners who have lost combinations?

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

How about this for the height of charitable response: Let us not let our legitimate and scripturally founded need to guard against secret combinations, blind us to the other ten million legitimate dangers to our life/liberty/property/safety/rights.

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 13:34, 2008-01-22

dianoia · Senior Member

I like your style, Loudmouth.

And

on the Bloom County avatar. It's one of my favorite strips.

-- Edited by dianoia at 13:52, 2008-01-22

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

President Ezra Taft Benson, speaking in a Church General Conference in October 1988, told us: "I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world."

As an Apostle, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, pp. 314-315: Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the President of the United States...it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, pp. 314-315)

President J. Ruben Clark, speaking in the October 1949 General Conference, said: "Do not think that all these usurpations, intimidations, and impositions are being done to us through inadvertancy or mistake, the whole course is deliberately planned and carried out; its purpose is to destroy the Constitution and our Constitutional government."

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, speaking in the April 1980 General Conference, stated:
"Gadianton robbers fill the judgement seats in many nations. An evil power seeks to overthrow the freedom of all nations and countries."

Apostle Boyd K. Packer, speaking in a 16 January 2007 BYU Devotional, stated:
We live in a time of war, that spiritual war that will never end. Moroni warned us that the secret combinations begun by Gadianton are had among all people. . . . Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [and the term gentile in that place in the Book of Mormon refers to us in our generation], it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you. . . . Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you. [Ether 8:20, 2324]