Ties at church, as opposed to non-white shirts

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

RE: Ties at church, as opposed to non-white shirts

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Actually, there's quite a number of LARGE prints of Christ all around my ward building.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

well, hoss, if you ever catch ME in costly apparel, you'll know hell's frozen over... I'm pretty much the anathema of costly apparel... much to the chagrin of one of my daughters who thinks she is a princess...

ANd you know, were it not so much fun to argue with you, I could argue the opposite of this argument easily. So Nyeah! bleh

--Ray

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

You can see what people here are wearing?

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Didn't you notice when we installed the Jen cam?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

guess I should start getting dressed first thing in the morning

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:
ANd you know, were it not so much fun to argue with you, I could argue the opposite of this argument easily. So Nyeah!

It's because my line of BS is so well-thought-out and stated clearly, cleverly and succinctly, huh?

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Jen wrote:

You can see what people here are wearing?

Actually, I meant in real life. smile

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Now that I don't have a job, there's really no reason to get dressed... except on Sundays, when I go to church. :) You should all be thanking God for church... trust me... :)

--Ray

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

No reason...except the Ray cam.

Smaug · Senior Member

I think there's a fine line in which ties are appropriate. A viagra tie isn't. Cartoon ties annoy me and may detract from the Spirit in certain circumstances. Though it's an individual choice, I personally believe that the closer we come to emulating the brethren (and sistren) in our dress for church, the more appropriate we are. So in my mind, white shirts and non-detracting ties and more appropriate for men to wear than other choices that could be made. That doesn't mean that they are the only choices, just more appropriate in my mind.

On a related note, I don't like it when active members come to church dressed inappropriately, that is, not in Sunday clothes. If they're too poor to afford nice clothes for church, then they better not own a television, ipod, or a car newer than 10 years old, because if they do own those kinds of things and can't afford decent clothes for church wear, they are putting things before the Lord.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You mean like Levi's, or what?

DaKnife · Senior Member

On a related note, I don't like it when active members come to church dressed inappropriately, that is, not in Sunday clothes. If they're too poor to afford nice clothes for church, then they better not own a television, ipod, or a car newer than 10 years old, because if they do own those kinds of things and can't afford decent clothes for church wear, they are putting things before the Lord.
And who's job is it to define inappropriately? Not yours, and not mine.

Who is to say that they are not coming straight from work or going strait to work after church. Or that their washing machine didn't explode last night while they were washing their church clothes.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that we should dress to honor the Savior, but He is the only one who can say whether or not their clothes are inappropriate. Anyone else is just being a pharisee. You don't know their situations, backgrounds or motivations, Judge not.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hoss Cartwright wrote:

rayb wrote:
We take meticulous effort to defrock our churches of crosses and icons of Christ, and yet we dare not speak against the Holy SpongeBob tie, or I'll go innactive!!

It has been my observance, that, for the most part those wearing the costly apparel, ostentatious jewelry, and name brand jeans are the very ones also speaking against the Holy Spongebob tie.

I have many ties. Many that I no longer wear. Many that I think are now horrendous and wonder what was I thinking when I bought that... Alas, I am not priviledged to have the funds to afford one of the Holy Spongebob ties. Apparently, I am not ready for starting my career at the Krusty Krab...

If it is nice looking silk and does not promote an inappropriate message for Sacrament meeting attendance or for performing one's priesthood duty, then a Spongebob tie would be a nice way to get some smiles out of people's faces. After all, the Gospel means we should be happy and joyful and as children. Spongebob is kind of the epitomy of childlike happiness and joy! And Squidward is kind of like the epitomy of the divas found in every ward...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Dude. Squidward's nose freaks me out. He has no place in a religious institution of any kind.

Smaug · Senior Member

And who's job is it to define inappropriately? Not yours, and not mine.

Agreed. And I worded that wrong. Only the individual knows his or her own circumstances. I'm just saying that if they do have the capability to buy and wear (precluding any broken washers etc.), and the don't wear them, and then they go home to watch their cable tv or listen to their ipod--well, that means that they could've afforded dress clothes and chose to buy things instead. To me that shows a profound disrespect for the Lord. Granted, I generally wouldn't know these circumstances, only they would.

Who is to say that they are not coming straight from work or going strait to work after church.

They might be. But most people have jobs where they can wear nice clothes if they so choose. I've seen police officers in their uniforms attending church and military people as well in camos. I've got no problem with that---in fact I'm glad they come. I'm talking about the people who could dress better and don't even bother. And to tell you the truth, I really don't know any of those, but I heard radio talk show host Dennis Prager do one of his shows on this subject and I agree with his sentiment that you should dress in your Sunday best---and most know what that means---to show respect and honor to God.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that we should dress to honor the Savior, but He is the only one who can say whether or not their clothes are inappropriate. Anyone else is just being a pharisee. You don't know their situations, backgrounds or motivations, Judge not.

So you'd have no problem with a woman showing up to church in a bikini then?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Smaug wrote:

So you'd have no problem with a woman showing up to church in a bikini then?

That would make for an interesting justification in the "honoring the Savior" category...

For the time being, I'll just leave that right there with the possibility of me showing up to church (or anywhere else for that matter) in a speedo...

DaKnife · Senior Member

Only if the Bikini works for her. Way too many women try to wear those who just don't have the body.

Same thing goes for Cat in his Speedo.

But let's back off on the extreme examples, and look at something a little more realistic.

Several years ago, a group from my Singles ward went on a camping trip to Zions Nat Park. We camped at a KOA on the East side of the park, and made the effort to find the time of the nearest ward. Now most of us had packed somewhat churchy clothes, but a couple guys realized they'd left their church clothes hanging on the door next to their bed (where they wouldn't forget it of course). All they had to wear were clean polo style shirts and Khaki shorts.

Should they have stayed behind?

Of course not. The best part was when the Counselor who was conducting filled in some extra time at the end of Sacrement with a brief talk to the youth of the ward about the evils of wearing shorts of any length. He didn't make any allowance for nice knee length shorts or the like. Anything above the ankles was evil, or close to it.

My two buddies said they were feeling kind of self concious at that point, but the rest of us reassured them we were all wishing we had been wearing shorts.

So Cat, let us know when you attend church in yer speedo. I'll give positive character ref's for ya at the church court.

Smaug · Senior Member

Okay--the was an extreme example, yes, but that's carrying things to their logical conclusion. That and t-shirts with Satanic slogans etc. Should we never judge anything? The Lord says we should judge righteously, not that we shouldn't ever judge. Do I think those singles ward guys should've not come to church? No, but I would say that if there had been a local Wal-Mart or something like that they should've made an effort to get some nicer clothes before attending. If nothing like that was around for miles and miles then what happened happened and they made the effort to attend which is commendable.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Smaug, I understand what your are saying. OTOH, I would rather someone be at church. I am in a rural area and it is not infrequent for peoples' coats to be hunting/camo coats in the winter. A few do wear jeans to church, one does and is a Sunday school teacher, not the best attire, but he is there and doing his calling.

I tend to be very cautious about such things, I see it all as in due time. We had a lady coming to church in a pant suit that looked like a dress, not sure what they are called, but someone, I think from the other unit in the building, told her it was inappropriate. This hurt her deeply and we had to reassure her she was okay to come to church. We have a couple of members that smoke, both will go out into the parking lot sometimes during church and smoke and often smell like smoke at church. They are where they are supposed to be and all in due time.

Hehe, the first time I wore dockers to church after coming home from BYU, the way my dad reacted you would have thought the anti-Christ was sitting there next to him.

Anyway, I see it as expressing some individuality. On my mission I hated seeing missionaries become these robot types that just chucked their individuality and personalities. I love expression and individualism and detest being a member of "hive". We can still be ourselves and yet be a greater part of something.

Of course any man that wears a pink, lilac, purple, etc. shirt or tie to church, well, that is something altogether different! Yuck! wink

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh, man. There is this guy that wears almost all pink, lilac, turquoise blue shirts at Church. He's from an old cowboy family, but he married this girl... how shall we describe her? She looks quite a bit like a dark-haired (although her hair color changes from month to month) Anna-Nicole Smith. She wears these "edgey" type clothes - fishnets at Church? - anyway, and I'm pretty sure she dresses her husband. It's kinda funny, cuz he's just this good ole' boy and I think he's trying to keep the peace. You'll see him walk in and it's like, "Dude, what's up --" and then SHE comes in and it's like, "HELLO!" But hey, she's in YW and he's in the Elders Pres. and they do their duties and are there every Sunday. I can't wait 'till summer when she starts tanning again and has the flourescent colored toenails.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Poor guy, sounds like a high maintenance issue there, glad he can handle, I would go nuts.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Dude! I was just at Porter's Place restaurant in Lehi over the weekend and sat right below that photo! When I was divorced, I fantasized that I'd just hook up with Porter in the next life.

arbilad · Head Chef

I know someone whose son when hardcore inactive because he was teased at church for not wearing a white shirt to church. The family couldn't afford clothes like that. To this day they're not rich.
Except in extreme cases, I think that your attire at church should be between you and the Lord. If you need a white shirt for passing the sacrament and don't have one, see the bishop about getting an exception or the money to buy one. But noone should take it upon themselves to play the clothes police at church (except the appropriate leaders in private). Heck, if I saw, as an extreme example, a tie that resembled a phallus, I would find a member of the bishopric lickety split; I wouldn't confront the person myself.
There are too many opportunities in the church for self righteous, pharisee like behavior. Clothes is one of the major ones. Yes, you should dress your best. But how do you know what someone's best is? Even if you've seen them in a suit previously, maybe the baby threw up all over it and while it's getting dry cleaned the best they can wear is a t-shirt and shorts.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Cocobeem wrote:

Dude! I was just at Porter's Place restaurant in Lehi over the weekend and sat right below that photo! When I was divorced, I fantasized that I'd just hook up with Porter in the next life.

Well, I don't have long hair, I do carry a gun or two, I am rather surly, only shave every other day, don't to take crap from people, unless it is work, then I don't have a choice.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I remember a story at BYU someone in Church told. It was about a man that showed up to sac. mtg. and he had totally long hair and a beard... didn't look like he'd tried to clean himself up much at all. Didn't even pull it back in a ponytail or anything. Turns out he was playing John the Baptist in some big play. You just never know. But even beyond that, I just don't see why people *care* -- I certainly don't. And I don't sit there and try to make excuses for them in my head. I just. Don't care.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

My old priests quorum advisor is a man I will never forget. I don't think he is active in the church any longer. Repeated marital / familial problems (at least two divorces) probably eventually took its toll on his commitment. But, he was always a gas. A very humble man. He was a driver for UPS, so it was not unusual to see him show up for Mutual or Scouts in his "Browns" after a hard day at work. He was of greek decent, and one of the things he taught us was what his father taught him. His dad ran a diner, and if someone would come asking for a handout, he would agree to give him a sandwich or something, but before they could have the meal, he would hand them a broom and ask them to go sweep the parking lot or something like that to earn the meal. Nothing degrading, but also something that the individual could feel like they weren't just getting a hand out.

The other thing was it didn't matter what type of clothes one wore, and the Lord didn't care either what one wore, as long as when going to Church it was the best clothes one had and they were clean, modest, and appropriate for worship. So, in other words, The Lord doesn't care if a man is wearing a cheap broadcloth white (or colored) shirt from Kmart or a custom hand tailored shirt with studs from the executive tailor shop, as long as the it is clean and the individual is there to worship in the proper spirit.

Honestly, some times people take things to some unnatural extremes. When a man or young man is acting in a priesthood role, then yes, there are some expectations and standards of dress that should be followed. And probably the same for female leaders. But, that does not mean that it becomes a standard for everyone else to follow in those same expectations or somehow they are not worthy of the Lord's spirit or participation in worship service.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

For the past two weeks we've been watching two extra children from a family in crisis. One is a boy about ten, and he has never been seen in a white shirt and tie. I don't have a job right now, and money's tight, but we managed to get a long sleeve white shirt, and tie (that came with it) for about 8 bucks. (The tie came with the shirt.)

If you go to the D.I., GoodWill, Salvation Army, Valu-Village, or some other thrift store you can find something even cheaper.

IMNSHO, there's no excuse for not having a white shirt and tie, unless you're attempting to "Make a Statement" Or you just don't know better... or in the rare case that Aunt Beula bought you a shirt told you that you had to wear it to church or she'd disinherit you from her chinchilla farm. They're so fleeberingly cheep now.

--Ray

PS> FWIW, the boy was delighted to wear the shirt, and wants to be baptized. Sadly his parents are... well... they just don't give a crap about a lot of stuff... including the kid's spirit... and so who knows if he'll get a chance to covenant with God, or hold the priesthood. Sigh.

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, whether or not you are right about everyone being able to afford a white shirt, the fact remains, it would be extremely poor judgment to tease a kid for not wearing a white shirt, or to confront somebody about it in sacrament meeting.
Let's take your situation further. Let's say that this ten year old kid goes back to his family and continues attending church. His white shirt gets dirty and stinky and he asks his mom to wash it. Assume that he doesn't know how yet. Let's further assume that the mom in question either can't clean it (no money for laundry detergent) or doesn't want to. Said kid doesn't want to stink, so he stops wearing the white shirt. Do the other kids now have the chance to tease him?

dianoia · Senior Member

Of course not, arbi.

But speaking as a youth leader, we've got a Beehive who doesn't care about fashion and dresses a bit more formally, and she's the one the others have made comments about. I overheard one of the other youth say to her at an activity, "Why do you always tuck in your shirts?" as if it was a major fashion faux pas. (It probably is, which I find ridiculous. The current trend for young men to wear their dress pants practically falling off their rear ends doesn't make sense to me either. An old friend said a little while back, "You know you're getting old when you have no desire to follow the current fashion because you think it looks ridiculous.)

My previous ward was one that was very modest financially - most of us shopped at thrift stores. But on Sundays we dressed up. So it was a surprise for me to move to a much more affluent area and find everyone dressed far more casually. It's a very trendy and expensive casual, because that's the fashion.

The BoM references those who have money looking down on the rest of the Church because they haven't spent as much. What if the modern-day version of that is those who always follow the current trends look with scorn at those who choose a more traditional look?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Parents and youth leaders that do not say anything to the young men who are wearing the tops of their pants down around the ankles (okay, so that they are barely hanging on their butts) are doing the young men no favor.

The young men may not realize it, but the trend is a gang sign of honor. It started when belts were removed from prisoners in jails / prisons to prevent the gang members from using them as weapons. Thus, the trend of going beltless and having pants hang down like that is a stupid imitation of a behavior that ignorant youth (typically white, middle or upper class) who are trying to be "cool" and show how big a "rapper" and how "black" they are.

Generally, if parents let their sons get away with this, their sons are going to end up showing a lot of disrespect to others in the process of proving how "cool" they are and as they constantly are trying to establish their pecking order of who is the biggest alpha male...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

how bout we not take "my situation" further? How about we just talk in the real world. The real world suggests that with a little effort even poor people can dress in a modest and respectable fashion and do so out of reverence for God, and that making poor people into victims only further's their inability to help themselves.

It will never be okay to tease, but since when is asking someone to show a little respect to God teasing?

--Ray

Smaug · Senior Member

Hey, I sometimese wear dockers to church---along with my white shirt and tie.

On smelling like smoke. Someone once told me that if all of our faults and sins had an odor attached to them, the chapel would be an awful smelly place. :)

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Smaug wrote:

Hey, I sometimese wear dockers to church---along with my white shirt and tie.

This is my DH's Sunday uniform. Even when he's teaching Elders' quorum! *GASP* (But hey, he always has a white shirt and tie, so he has that going for him )

Seriously, it never crossed my mind that khakis/Dockers aren't appropriate for church. Am I the only one?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Never heard anything against dockers... Levi blue jeans, yeah... but not khakis...

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:

The young men may not realize it, but the trend is a gang sign of honor.

My neighbor is also an officer. At the time of this story he was a detective in the gang unit. His teenage son made the mistake of wearing his pants in that manner. Smack to the back of the head was the start of the lecture. I have never seen the sagging pants on him again. biggrin

Organist · Senior Member

I'm all for showing respect to God at church, but I don't for a minute think a white verses blue shirt does it, even if I have the choice. White shirts may equalize everyone to the same economic class, but they don't inheritly show respect.

Organist · Senior Member

If anyone ever bothered me about my clothing choices (non-rebellious ones), I would ask them where they kept their rameumptum.

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

how bout we not take "my situation" further? How about we just talk in the real world. The real world suggests that with a little effort even poor people can dress in a modest and respectable fashion and do so out of reverence for God, and that making poor people into victims only further's their inability to help themselves.

It will never be okay to tease, but since when is asking someone to show a little respect to God teasing?

--Ray

Since when is it your place to ask someone to show God a little respect, unless they're under your stewardship? There are real life stories of people leaving the church because of being hounded about their clothing choices.

Getting back to real life, there are people for whom $8 for clothing is an insurmountable burden. I appreciate that you're out of work, Ray. I'm sure that things are very tough for you financially right now. But there are people for whom it is a constant struggle to afford the gas to get to work, much less pay $8 for a shirt and tie. That is the real world.

Organist · Senior Member

I can't believe I got drawn into this conversation again.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Such an interesting thread- it is crucial to avoid judging others in an unfair manner as well as to avoid placing " our dress code beliefs" on ot hers. For example, some time ago I read something about someone who thought sisters s hould wear a dress to do visiting teaching.
That is fine she does it, I don't think it should be expected/required and certainly not "preached" as the ideal. Same for home teachers wearing a suits, this is fine if someone wishes to do so, but the intent of their heart/spirit matters more.

If someone really wants to dress in the white shirt or wear a dress or whatever, and can't afford, as suggested, there is the option of talking w/the bishop for guidance/assistance. On my mission there was a lady who was quite overweight- one of her ward members sewed her a couple dresses so she would have dresses to wear. There is also Freecycle. Last year in our ward they collected white shirts/other Church attire to send to an African ward (due to a connection of a ward member) so they could have appropriate clothing. Several years ago, a former stake presidency member was serving as a mission pres in the Phillipines. THey had a stake service project to collect white shirts to send to missionaries there who could not otherwise afford the white shirt.

Last week I subbed in primary w/the lesson being "I am a Child of God". I found a quote on a primary site that said how we see our physical appearance but the Lord sees our Spirit, etc and who we are. Someone could be dressed the nicest possible way but have a mean Spirit. Another mission thing that was painful to experience was a sister went back to church after years, she walked there in the snow and in calf high boots. Some sisters gossiped about her for wearing boots to churh. :(

One time i was grateful for good perspective was back in college when I visited a friend who was going to her relative's baptism. I hadn't known about this so had no church attire. So I went in my slacks. I appreciated the kindness of the family of the child being baptized.

Another random thought from this past Sunday- I drove nearly 50 miles to attend a fireside in another stake. In getting ready, I was going to wear a dress and then thought no, this fireside is in someone's home and it is freezing outside and I am going to wear comfortable pants. So I did. My desire to attend the fireside and learn is what mattered to me, despite to temptation of Satan to encourage me to stay home where it is warm and comfortable. I really wanted to hear the speaker as he is someone I really respect. (as it turned out another speaker was there as the original speaker had a family emergency). If someone judged me for wearing pants, too bad. I also wore pants to watch the First Pres. Devotional and I wear pants to watch General Conference for all but the Sunday Am session (I watch in the chapel as I don't have cable). At the fireside, I judged myself and semi-apologized when I was introduced. But I think people can convey respect, love and devotion to the Lord without wearing a dress (or suit, etc) to these type of Church events. I feel I "did my time" wearing a dress/hose to all functions when I served as a missionary so minimize the other times I wear dresses.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Arbi: I don't represent the priesthood, but I've heard the apostles encourage the aaronic priesthood to dress respectfully. White shirt and tie has been mentioned repeatedly in priesthood conferences and is written into the standards of manuals, etc.

You do what you want. It's just a stupid shirt and tie. But imo, when someone goes out of their way to make a point to be "different" in church, it's more often than not smacks of the wrong spirit... taken the right way, it's no big deal, but these things do escalate, especially among the youth...

I don't think you have to do everything the same, but some of the basics can build a feeling of unity and a sense of equality despite our many levels of means and talents.

In the temple we all wear white... Or are you secretly wearing bright crimson socks to make a point?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 00:04, 2008-01-23

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

Arbi: I don't represent the priesthood, but I've heard the apostles encourage the aaronic priesthood to dress respectfully. White shirt and tie has been mentioned repeatedly in priesthood conferences and is written into the standards of manuals, etc.

You do what you want. It's just a stupid shirt and tie. But imo, when someone goes out of their way to make a point to be "different" in church, it's more often than not smacks of the wrong spirit... taken the right way, it's no big deal, but these things do escalate, especially among the youth...

I don't think you have to do everything the same, but some of the basics can build a feeling of unity and a sense of equality despite our many levels of means and talents.

In the temple we all wear white... Or are you secretly wearing bright crimson socks to make a point?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 00:04, 2008-01-23

Ray, I acknowledge that we should dress our best, and that especially the young men of priesthood age should wear white shirts. You have no arguement on that subject from me. What I'm saying is that it is not our place to "police" each other. If a young man shows up at church wearing a Black Sabbath t-shirt, his young men's advisor or Bishop should talk to him. Not every member of the ward.

The Bishop and the leaders are the ones responsible for gentle correction. We're responsible for fellowshipping. I've home taught people that smell of smoke at church, don't wear a white shirt, etc. But since they show up so rarely, I'm just happy to have them there. If I could get them attending regularly, then we could see about wearing appropriate clothes.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

There are degrees of sins just as there are degrees of glory in the next life. I loved Smaug's point that if everyone's sins had a unique reek to them, we would indeed be surprised by the smell at Sunday meetings. I think nita hit the point when she said man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on the heart. To me, the person who comments about someone's clothing, or even thinks it in their minds but refrains from vocalizing, reeks far worse than the so-called "offender." They do not see as God sees. They pretend constructive assistance, but their self-appointed holier-than-thou behavior betrays them. This behavior is often observed in those attempting to hide their own sins, or at least put the focus somewhere else.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I agree with what you stated in your last post Arbi. And you're right, it should be done by a leader, not the scowls of the membership.

--Ray

PS> A lot of kids don't get the clothes thing at all. They think they can wear whatever they like or they're being oppressed... and they take a sort of power out of being different.

I knew a kid who would wear "devil-worshipping" jewelry and clothes to church and activities. I really believe he did so, hoping that someone would look at him crossly, so that he could feel victimized and have an excuse to leave the faith. I tried to encourage him, but eventually he ran away from his family and went off to live the "rave" lifestyle and I've not seen nor heard from him since. Kinda sad.