Ties at church, as opposed to non-white shirts

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Ties at church, as opposed to non-white shirts

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

If the tie had a naked lady on it, yeah.

I don't see why a red/white and blue tie would be a big deal though.

Actually I kind of agree with the high council's sentiments about cartoon characters though. It depends a bit on the person, but if priesthood leadership ONLY wears silly ties, or ties endorsing some cartoon character (I had a dilbert tie, for example. but dilbert really isn't very reverent, in fact it's quite the opposite, which is why it's funny.) then I might be inclined to think that the priesthood didn't take serious their duties--to dress respectful of the sacred office they hold...

Of course, this will no doubt set off Hoss, so bring it on, buddy! :)

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

If you have a Primary or Nursery calling, all cartoon ties are good.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Our bishopric spent all of december wearing various secular-themed Christmas ties (Grinches and sleigh bells and what not), so I'm not expecting any trouble over my recent tie additions - the 10 commandments in Hebrew, map of palestine, and Jerusalem skyline.

arbilad · Head Chef

Most of my ties have Mickey Mouse on them.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Nothing evil about Disney. :)

--Ray

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Something that promoted non church standards would be inappropriate, after that I don't see a problem. I have soccer ball tie, Donald Duck, cats and a couple of Purdue University ties. I have not worn any of them in years, but if I felt like wearing one I wouldn't hesitate.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

My 13yo has a UofUtah tie and loves to wear it when he's passing to the die-hard BYU fan who has a blue Y on his roof that he lights up whenever they play. He's an older fellow and has been in Scouts like his whole life - really a gem of a man. 13yo gets this cheesy grin and passes him the tray...

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

If you're aware that what you wear sends a message, and you're cool with the message you're sending, then yeah. It's all good for me.

Janey · Senior Member

I remember being a bit startled once during the sacrament when I turned to take the tray from the deacon and found myself about 12 inches from the Tasmanian devil's huge tongue.

But since DaKnife whispers to me during the sacrament anyway, I have no call to tell someone else they aren't being reverent.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

lol

DaKnife · Senior Member

Not to mention the fact that I have a Taz tie that I occasionally wear.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I have a dilbert, taz and winnie the pooh tie. I'm not even sure how I got a couple of those. But I just don't feel comfortable wearing them anymore. I suppose if I was subbing in Nursery, I'd wear pooh bear. I don't know, maybe it's a utah thing... or a rebellion thing... but I don't feel the need to be a rebel at church anymore. I even shaved the goatee and bought a suit coat (though I still can't bring myself to wear it). It just seems so exhausting to be a rebel... I just need things out of church nowadays... and giving offense in any fashion, or even doing things to get attention, outside of cubscouts, or singing primary songs just kinda doesn't appeal to me anymore. I used to get my jollies on that sorta crap.

--Ray

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

My first reaction was, "Who gives a flip?". Then I thought about it and realized that I wouldn't feel reverent or appropriate wearing a shirt or dress with a character on it. So who knows?

Organist · Senior Member

If they don't get their hometeaching done, you know what to blame.

Organist · Senior Member

If they do get their home teaching done, then who cares?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I'm not sure that most (?) people look at things on ties as rebellious or getting their jollies or whatever... am I missing some kind of unspoken tie culture? I glance at them briefly and couldn't tell you what any man at Church had on thier tie by the time we get home...

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Coco,

That's great... but you are the exception.

Elder Oaks told the Aaronic Priesthood that if it could be distracting, don't wear it. Nothing should distract from the sacred ordinance of the sacrament.

Melchizedek Priesthood should set a proper example for the Aaronic Priesthood.

I gave up my fish tie, my sponge bob tie and my GB Packer tie a long time ago.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

What I thought was mildly humorous about him saying what he did is that I know of about 10 other men in the branch that have the same tie and everyone wears them frequently. A surplus store in town had the ties for like a dollar for ten of them, so everyone got them, shared them, gave them as gifts. I know I was not the only one wearing one that day.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Organist wrote:

If they don't get their hometeaching done, you know what to blame.

Yep, w/the way some people in society like to blame others, if someone doesn't have their hometeacher visit or doesn't learn as much in sacrament meeting, they could sue the tie manufacturer for creating a tie that led to spiritual distraction?

To me the ties add a tad of personality. Some ties w/stripes are handsome, others - especially w/the exsra wide stripes- are kind of boring.

A man in our ward has a World's Greatest Dad tie w/a smiley face that he wore on Father's Day, I liked his tie and was able to find a similar one for my dad.

No offense to anyone, but I don't like bowties and think they are silly. Growing up, my dad wore bowties. I can't believe I didn't help them disappear.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Here is an article about the history of ties- originated due to war and the article points out there is no functional use in the wearing of a tie:
http://www.ricksties.com/historyofties.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necktie - this is a different article w/more info on the history of ties. Also includes comments about opposition to ties and even how ties can be dangerous for health reasons.

-- Edited by nitasmile at 08:02, 2008-01-15

-- Edited by nitasmile at 08:11, 2008-01-15

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:
.... if priesthood leadership ONLY wears silly ties, or ties endorsing some cartoon character .... then I might be inclined to think that the priesthood didn't take serious their duties--to dress respectful of the sacred office they hold...

Of course, this will no doubt set off Hoss, so bring it on, buddy! :)

Priesthood leadership takes its duties seriously by what it does, not by what it wears. If people are judging a leader by his attire, they are judging unrighteously. IMHO.

I'm more of a substance over style kind of guy, as we all know.

I have, and wear, almost exclusively character ties. I have them from the (8-9) years when I taught primary. I enjoy wearing them, because it reminds me of that beautiful time.

I am surprised that anyone would comment negatively upon such ties, but I shouldn't be. No one has ever said anything negative to me about my ties; but then, I'm not a bishop or anything.

I guess they figure a guy with a beard, we're lucky he doesn't get naked and dance on the pews.

-- Edited by Hoss Cartwright at 09:37, 2008-01-15

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Janey wrote:

I remember being a bit startled once during the sacrament when I turned to take the tray from the deacon and found myself about 12 inches from the Tasmanian devil's huge tongue.

I only have one tie that closely matches my green shirt. It's one of my Taz ties (I have two). No tongues. Baseball bats and fishing poles.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I guess they figure a guy with a beard, we're lucky he doesn't get naked and dance on the pews.

I know that's what I was thinking.

I would think that in Val's case, where it appeared from his description that it appeared to have been more than a periodic indulgence, but a trend among priesthood holders to wear their personal icons on their ties, that it might be something of a distraction from the priesthood duties.

I thought what Nita said was interesting. She said a cartoon character on a tie shows a little of the individual's personality, but when you hold the priesthood or are officiating in the priesthood, you're not supposed to show your character, you're supposed to represent Christ's character.

I think were it something for primary, I think it's kind of fun. Might be a way to keep the kid's attention, though it can also be a huge distraction. Imagine what's going through a kid's mind when they're trying to learn reverence from a guy wearing a SpongeBob tie. Spongebob is pretty much the opposite of reverence.

I think the High Council, which is pointing this out to members of the priesthood, are probably more sensitive to worldly trends that encroach upon worship, because they are outsiders or visitors coming into your ward. If they have a concern about it, then it may be more than just a periodic thing, it may have become the expectation... and I personally believe any quorum that sends the unspoken message that in order to be a "hipster" priesthood holder needs to have a trendy tie, is creating a false trend that should probably be reexamined, or at least brought to light... After all, you may have no problem with it as an adult, but deacons and teachers tend to fixate upon the wrong stuff...

There's nothing more amazing to an investigator of the church than to see well-mannered and reverent deacons at age 12, because most worldly versions are loud and vandalizing something. If they are all bearing different emblems of Cable Television, I can understand how that might distract from the impressive miracle and trust that is the Aaronic Priesthood.

So all I'm saying is I can sympathize with the High Councilman. I seldom notice ties... but then, I think that's the point of a tie... if you do notice it, chances are it's probably too loud cuz it's NOT about the clothes... and shouldn't be.

--Ray

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I saw a tie at Walmart with the three crosses on Calvary, I thought about that one, but then figured I would really rile people with that. But then again, maybe I will. biggrin

Hoss, never seen anyone dance naked on the pews, but as a missionary once when having priesthood in the chapel, an investigator attending got up, walked to the stand, then got on the pews and started walking back and forth on them, and the tried to climb the wall standing on the back of the pews. Mind you, he showed up to church wearing only a black bed sheet as a toga, sandals, and earrings of the devil in each ear. So really, a beard is not too bad, in fact, the 2nd counselor in the branch presidency wears a full beard.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

If someone's clothing is enough of a distraction to make one "un-spiritual" I don't know how they're going to stay on the straight and narrow very long.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh - one thing our Bishop did a couple weeks before the Primary program was come into Primary and let the kids cut off a strip of his tie when they sang a song especially well. Then, on the program Sunday just before we were starting, he got up and turned around to all the kids on the stand, wiggled his shredded tie at us and gave us a

It was great.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 10:20, 2008-01-15

DaKnife · Senior Member

Hey it can be a tough battle just getting some men (young and older) to wear a tie in the first place.

There is too much emphasis in the church on what to wear if you want to be considered a worthy member. And very little of that emphasis comes over the pulpit at conference. Add the BoM's stories of how the church would become rich and prideful and kick out the poor and humble, and you find why anyone who ever criticizes how someone is dressed at church irks me. the Suit coat with white shirt and red power-tie uniform is found nowhere in the scriptures.

You don't need to wear a white shirt to bless and pass the sacrament. I've done it in Camouflage with a loaded 9mm pistol in a shoulder holster and a M-16 sitting next to my chair. It makes you think when you kneel down to say the blessing, and have
pause to shift your firearm to more comfortable position.

I recognize that encouraging specific clothing can be a good idea for teaching the youth of the church the importance of the ordinance, but it IS NOT A REQUIREMENT! And if I ever have the say(heaven forbid), I'll take a kid wearing a blue shirt and Spongebob tie passing the sacrement, over him choosing to not exercise his priesthood or even worse staying home and going inactive.

-- Edited by DaKnife at 10:33, 2008-01-15

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

I thought what Nita said was interesting. She said a cartoon character on a tie shows a little of the individual's personality, but when you hold the priesthood or are officiating in the priesthood, you're not supposed to show your character, you're supposed to represent Christ's character.

So, are you saying that we can't develop our own personalities and still remain a representative of Christ?

I learned on my mission that Jesus needs ME, not just a replica of Himself. He needs and wants my personality, my quirks, my talents. He, obviously, wants me to be a perfect me, but with my own personality. IMO, being one doesn't mean you lose yourself.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Hear, hear, DaKnife! There are also the stories with one of the very first *indicators* of the downward spiral you mentioned was the people's beginning to wear costly apparel. So it gets you both ways... some folks actually think they're better because of their clothing.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

.

-- Edited by PollyAnna at 12:05, 2008-02-25

DaKnife · Senior Member

Maybe you could find a tie like you can see here for him to wear at that time.

Note: the link is to an ebay site, and the seller has a voice clip that plays automatically. Nothing inappropriate, just annoying.

-- Edited by DaKnife at 11:20, 2008-01-15

dianoia · Senior Member

I'm kind of torn on this whole issue. I'm not in a position to know the state of other people's hearts, yet I'm not entirely comfortable with the growing casualness I see in the Church.

I tend to the conservative myself, I'm a nylon-wearin' non-flip-flop sister, and even though it means I feel somewhat staid and out of fashion at church, it's the right choice for me. And my hubby is as straight-arrow as they come, there's not a rebellious bone in his body.

We both understand that a lot of these cultural rules are just that, cultural, but we both prefer to keep the "stupid rules" as well as the doctrinal ones.

But Hubby's older brother reminds me that I need to be careful how I perceive others. He was one of the most Christ-like men I ever met (he passed away two years ago) and a goofy tie-wearing guy even as a Branch President. He was a Family and Marriage Therapist who chose to live in a tiny town in Northern Alberta, raise seven kids and never own a home because he chose to accept meager pay to counsel the nearby Native reservations and really make a difference in people's lives. The elders let his widow know how much he had been loved.

His anti-comformity in terms of dress (he worked almost exclusively in Looney Tunes T-shirts and was scruffy at the best of times) meant he could reach people who had learned to distrust "suits".

So you see my dilemma? I knew and loved a great man who raised the eyebrows of a General Authority (I'd tell the story but I'm too long-winded already), but I'm also one who thinks that when an apostle expresses concern, we AS A PEOPLE may need to be careful.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

dianoia wrote:
I tend to the conservative myself, I'm a nylon-wearin' non-flip-flop sister, and even though it means I feel somewhat staid and out of fashion at church, it's the right choice for me. And my hubby is as straight-arrow as they come, there's not a rebellious bone in his body.

Interesting that you equate character ties with "rebellion." Even more interesting that you imply rebellion against man-made expectations is a bad thing.

We both understand that a lot of these cultural rules are just that, cultural, but we both prefer to keep the "stupid rules" as well as the doctrinal ones.

What makes the "stupid rules" important enough to care about? Are they the opinion of man, or are they from God? Does God really have time to care what kind of tie your husband wears, or whether you have nylons on?

So you see my dilemma? I knew and loved a great man who raised the eyebrows of a General Authority (I'd tell the story but I'm too long-winded already), but I'm also one who thinks that when an apostle expresses concern, we AS A PEOPLE may need to be careful.

Please. General authorities are NOT God; and they do not profess to be. In our church, we claim that the prophet is a fallible human, but we treat EVERY general authority (not just the prophet) as if he were completely INFALLIBLE, and as if we should walk about on eggshells with every hint of doctrine that their eyebrows give out.

I say if someone "raises the eybrows" of a general authority, big deal; if said someone is at peace with his or her eyebrow-raising decision.

Orson Pratt was an apostle who published a lot of false doctrine.

Brigham Young (as prophet) taught several things which were rejected by subsequent prophets as false doctrine.

Bruce R. McConkie (great, inspired man that he was) taught several things, stongly, forcefully, and in print, which were contradicted by further revelation.

IMHO, unless it is something said over the pulpit at conference repeatedly, by more than one of the brethren, and for a long period of time, I am not going to worry about it in my own life, unless The Spirit bears witness to me that I need to.

I am not going to run my life based on obsure, hard-to-read directions from anyone, no matter what his earthly station.

And I sure as heck NEVER intend to look askance at what anyone else chooses to wear. I couldn't care less.

glumirk · Senior Member

The reason our bishop started coming down on tie wearers is when innocent 12 year olds went home asking their parents what Viagra is. The tie was pretty classy too! Kind of alternating golds for the stripes, and the shade of gold that wasn't the stripe said "viagra" across the tie. From a distance it was a nice looking tie, but what it was advertising was very irreverent. That bishop was very particular about what people wore so that they could be more reverent. Girls weren't allowed to wear shirts with any kind of printing on the front because it would draw the attention of the boys eyes. We couldn't even wear Youth Conference shirts to mutual!

I can definitely see why that tie was mentioned, although not specifically, but the bishop asked the men to wear reverent and appropriate ties.

dianoia · Senior Member

Whoa, Hoss, didn't mean to tick you off.

When I wrote that part about my husband not being the rebellious type, I considered that someone might misunderstand what I meant, but I always have to weigh that against my longwindedness.

Rebellion against mad-made things is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact I envy those who do what they feel is right without caring about what others think. But I'm a conformist, so's hubby. I've always worn nylons, he's always worn a white shirt and conservative tie. It feels comfortable for us. And I don't always trust my own judgement to tell when Church leaders are inspired and when they're wrong.

The gospel transcends culture, but I am still a product of the time and place and upbringing I have. The Lord could care less about my nylons, but He does care about my heart, and for me going bare-legged feels disrespectful. (Ironically, in this I guess I'm a non-comformist, because it's not fashionable anymore to wear nylons.) I totally understand that others will not feel the same way.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

dianoia wrote:

Whoa, Hoss, didn't mean to tick you off.

I wasn't "ticked off." I just disagreed with you and wrote a lot without emoticons. My bad.

The gospel transcends culture, but I am still a product of the time and place and upbringing I have.

That is fine. You may wear whatever you like.

... for me going bare-legged feels disrespectful. ... I totally understand that others will not feel the same way.

We claim the privilege of dressing and grooming according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men and women the same privilege, let them wear how, where, or what they may; unless they are overweight and wear spandex, and then they shall be forever cut off from our presence.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

glumirk wrote:

The reason our bishop started coming down on tie wearers is when innocent 12 year olds went home asking their parents what Viagra is.

Holy overreaction, Batman.

How easy it would have been for said bishop to approach the brother in question and say "I would appreciate it if you would please not wear that nice Viagra tie, as it causes some uncomfortable questions, the answers to which certain children are not prepared to receive at this time."

As it is, his action has the entire ward now discussing the "Viagra tie" incident.

dianoia · Senior Member

unless they are overweight and wear spandex, and then they shall be forever cut off from our presence.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Someone wore a tie advertising Viagra to church? Wow. That is sad to penalize everyone for that gross misjudgment.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hoss Cartwright wrote:

glumirk wrote:

The reason our bishop started coming down on tie wearers is when innocent 12 year olds went home asking their parents what Viagra is.

Holy overreaction, Batman.

How easy it would have been for said bishop to approach the brother in question and say "I would appreciate it if you would please not wear that nice Viagra tie, as it causes some uncomfortable questions, the answers to which certain children are not prepared to receive at this time."

As it is, his action has the entire ward now discussing the "Viagra tie" incident.

Those must indeed be some really innocent 12 year olds

... we have to regularly stear discussions away from topics of worse nature in our 12 year old young men than ED and a drug to treat it... And I would rather have to explain it to a 12 year old young man / boy than to a 10 year old daughter (which I have had to do courtesy of all the commercials for it on the kids' cable channel she watchs shows directed at her age group... oh yeah, nothing like slippin' a Viagra or the other drug out there commercial in during every other break from Josh and Drake or Hannah Montanna or That's So Raven rolleyes

)

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, I guess spandex ties are forbidden?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

The viagra tie. Does it.. never mind. I can just see some anti cartoon with Brigham Young, or better yet, Lorenzo Snow wearing one... What are people thinking?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hoss, when you served a fulltime mission, weren't there standards for ties you were expected to adhere to?

I remember we weren't supposed to wear ties that were too light or bright (back then, pastel pink and yellow ties were very popular), we were also scrutinized if the paizly tie was too loud. We were expected to govern ourselves, but I was surprised how often the Elders didn't just "not get it" but openly sought out that tie they could wear when they felt no one was looking... at least no one that would frown in disapproval.

I also take issue with the suggestion that it's "hard enough" to get some people to come to church, let alone wear a tie. We seem to always be going on about how we're all too sensitive, in fact this discussion is precisely that sort of discussion, yet when it comes to a simple expectation of respectable appearance, some folks wanna leave church if they can't wear Bugs Bunny?

And as for the Book of Mormon quotes, let us remember that scripture which states...

Alma 1:
27 - And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.

What's more likely to be costly, a tie with a corporate logo, or a plain one?

And let's not forget this gem, describing those who didn't adhere to the standards of the church...

Alma 1:

32 For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, and in idolatry or idleness, and in babblings, and in envyings and strife; wearing costly apparel; being glifted up in the pride of their own eyes; persecuting, lying, thieving, robbing, committing whoredoms, and murdering, and all manner of wickedness; nevertheless, the law was put in force upon all those who did transgress it, inasmuch as it was possible.

I love that part about "babblings", which imo, pretty much sums up most cartoon characters. :)

--Ray

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

Hoss, when you served a fulltime mission, weren't there standards for ties you were expected to adhere to?

Not really any that I can remember. I know I saw character ties on the elders in my mission, but I was too busy running to discussions and baptismal meetings to pay that much attention.

In addition, what's your point?

Surely you don't mean to equate "mission rules" with real life, do you? Because there's that whole "arms length" thing that most of us don't adhere to anymore.

I remember we weren't supposed to wear ties that were too light or bright (back then, pastel pink and yellow ties were very popular), we were also scrutinized if the paizly tie was too loud. We were expected to govern ourselves, but I was surprised how often the Elders didn't just "not get it" but openly sought out that tie they could wear when they felt no one was looking... at least no one that would frown in disapproval.

I really enjoy a nice paisley tie now and then.

...yet when it comes to a simple expectation of respectable appearance, some folks wanna leave church if they can't wear Bugs Bunny?

If the expectation were truly from The Lord and not from a control-freak busybody, then sure, no problem.

Actually, I am much more concerned that we BE respectable than that we APPEAR respectable. Different people define "respectable appearance" in many different ways. IMHO, character ties are completely respectable, as are bright colors and paisley.

I'd turn it around: "You see a Taz tie at church on a Deacon, and sudddenly you can't think about the sacrament anymore?" Get a life, or take your Ritalin.

And as for the Book of Mormon quotes, let us remember that scripture which states...

Alma 1:
27 - And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.

What's more likely to be costly, a tie with a corporate logo, or a plain one?

Corporate logo ties are frequently free, and I buy all of my ties at Walmart. One man's "neat and comely" is another man's "wearing of costly apparel."

And let's not forget this gem, describing those who didn't adhere to the standards of the church...

Alma 1:

32 For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, and in idolatry or idleness, and in babblings, and in envyings and strife; wearing costly apparel; being glifted up in the pride of their own eyes; persecuting, lying, thieving, robbing, committing whoredoms, and murdering, and all manner of wickedness; nevertheless, the law was put in force upon all those who did transgress it, inasmuch as it was possible.

I love that part about "babblings", which imo, pretty much sums up most cartoon characters. :)

Interesting. I would define "babblings" as those who go on and on about style with little regard for substance.

And I would define "costly apparel" as those styles which seek to emulate the standards of the world over the standards of The Lord.

Did you even read your own scripture:

envyings and strife;
wearing costly apparel;
being glifted up in the pride of their own eyes;
persecuting

Surely few things come closer to these sins than telling other what they can wear and looking down upon them when they don't comply.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hoss you really should learn to be more opinionated too...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I completely agree with Hoss.

Ever heard of a sheep in wolves' clothing? Exactly. There's no such thing.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

DaKnife wrote:
Maybe you could find a tie like you can see here for him to wear at that time.

-- Edited by PollyAnna at 12:09, 2008-02-25

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

PollyAnna wrote:

Hoss you really should learn to be more opinionated too...

I'm trying. No really; I am. biggrin

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

envyings and strife;
wearing costly apparel;
being glifted up in the pride of their own eyes;
persecuting

Surely few things come closer to these sins than telling other what they can wear and looking down upon them when they don't comply.

Unfortunately, they also all apply to the opposite side of the argument as well.

I'm just suggesting that if there HAS been contention about an issue like this, rather than rub everyone's face in it?

I've had issues with humility, I admit it. I hate talks on reverence, especially given by old people or people without children. But everytime those talks are given, I try my best to redouble my efforts to be respectful of others, even if my children are relatively well behaved.

It kinda reminds me of the story of Orderville... sure the adults in the orderville story didn't understand why the kids wanted the brandname jeans, but in a sense they never should've mattered at all... Why should brand logos, and corporate icons be in our worship services at all?

We take meticulous effort to defrock our churches of crosses and icons of Christ, and yet we dare not speak against the Holy SpongeBob tie, or I'll go innactive!!

--Ray