15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be. _______________________________________________________________________________
I have heard some folks say that the man referred to in verse 16 was Brigham Young.
I don't believe that to be the case.
I simply wonder how it is that we will end up in bondage.... and which member of the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency will be the living Prophet who will lead us out of that bondage by power and a stretched out arm.
Any ideas you gospel scholars?
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
. . . self-imposed bondage that we've been warned against, yes. And credit card companies that change the rules as they go, and the value of the American dollar slipping because of our outrageous national debt. . .
I said I didn't think that was it, no need to be snarky about it. Just throwing it out there.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
... but I paid cash for my beemer... and yeah, I do look kewl!
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I'm currently supporting TWO full time missionaries.. (one of them is mine)
My fast offerings as a percentage of what I pay in tithing is the highest of anyone in our stake... at least I made certain that it was for the past 8 years. Uh oh... there go all of my blessings now.
And as for Mitt, $4,600/ year is all they allow. Been there, done that.
And besides... I just drive an OLD used beemer.
-- Edited by Mahonri at 16:39, 2007-12-09
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
Cash? I am so glad to hear that. I've been wondering about that for months now- since you spoke of the social pressure that led to its purchase. All our vehicles (4) are paid off as well. There's no beemer in the lot, though.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Actually it was a check... but I always say a check is as good as cash... most of the time. The dealer was happy with it. All of our vehicles were paid in full the day we bought them. I bought one on time back in 1994... it took me until 1996 to pay it off and I decided then and there I wouldn't buy another car unless I could pay for it in full. In 2000 when I traded in that old, extremely well used Chrysler Voyager for a Towncar it was a nice feeling to drive away without owing.
Now back to the original topic.
Is the bondage the debt that this entire country/ people of the Church is in?
Perhaps one of our next prophets will begin the mantra... GET OUT OF DEBT....
Haven't they all said that?
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
The bondage might have been what they were specifically talking about, being driven out of their lands in Missouri. The man who led Zion's Camp was Joseph Smith. A few verses before this is said that the redemption shall come, unless they pollute their inheritance, in which case they shall be thrown down. (That appears to have happened in Missouri several times and later in Illinois.) It also says that once the land is redeemed, we will not cease to prevail until Christ comes again. Since that didn't happen, did they pollute their inheritance? Will the land not be redeemed until we have a generation ready to redeem it? Should we be making large purchases of land in Independence and donating them to the church?
That was my first line of thinking Organist, please play some more music.
As for bondage Can anyone live with out the mark of their social security #? Try to open any account, get a credit card or just live without it for a month or two. Can you?
hiddentreasuredotws wrote: As for bondage Can anyone live with out the mark of their social security #?
I think a LOT of people are going to be surprised when they find out what "the mark" really is.
If it were the SS#, our prophets would have identified it as such for us. All of our current church leaders comply fully with the tax code, including filing taxes using an SSN.
hiddentreasuredotws wrote: As for bondage Can anyone live with out the mark of their social security #?
I think a LOT of people are going to be surprised when they find out what "the mark" really is.
If it were the SS#, our prophets would have identified it as such for us. All of our current church leaders comply fully with the tax code, including filing taxes using an SSN.
Could it be a liposuction scar? Dermal scarring from sunbathing? Pierced ears, noses, lips, tongues, or other body parts? A simple tattooing of the body? Lasik surgery? Brightening and bleaching of teeth?
A propensity to speak using swear words and blue language as bad as a sailor?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I recently dined with two non-LDS elementary school principal friends who commented on the HUGE number of little Mormon mommies bringing their kids to school whose surgically enhanced breasts arrive ten minutes before THEY do.
They wanted to know how this relates to counsel regarding tattoos and earrings. I didn't know.
hiddentreasuredotws wrote: As for bondage Can anyone live with out the mark of their social security #?
I think a LOT of people are going to be surprised when they find out what "the mark" really is.
If it were the SS#, our prophets would have identified it as such for us. All of our current church leaders comply fully with the tax code, including filing taxes using an SSN.
Could it be a liposuction scar? Dermal scarring from sunbathing? Pierced ears, noses, lips, tongues, or other body parts? A simple tattooing of the body? Lasik surgery? Brightening and bleaching of teeth?
A propensity to speak using swear words and blue language as bad as a sailor?
oh, now you've gone from preachin' to meddlin' . . . and I had almost saved up enough for that brand new tramp stamp . . . !*@&!@&*!&*
perhaps "the mark" could be loosely interpreted to be anything that separates us from God.
Some people just choose to have visible reminders (cars, clothes, etc.) of their inward choices while others choose so called secret sins (internet indulgence, porn, etc.)
I wouldn't be surprised if the mark turned into some kind of tattoo thing...
It's amazingly popular nowadays. I think it's because of the nature of art in general becoming more accessible... When I displayed my sketch art at elementary schools, both times, I would have some lady or guy come up to me and offer me money to design tattoos for them.
My response, "I would if I wasn't morally opposed to the practice of tattooing."
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
The mark is in the forehead or the hand. But, symbolism for the Hebrew culture was rarely literal visual symbolism, but rather what was the use of the symbol. Feet weren't meant to be feet, but rather symbolized movement and messengers.
Why is the mark on the forehead? Perhaps this has reference to the phylacteries that were put on the forehead, meaning the mark is close to your thoughts always.
What is a mark in the hand used for? Hands are the objects of doing things, acting, and building.
I do not think that breast augmentation is the mark of the beast.
I don't know why people focus so much on the "mark of the beast."
There are many, MANY ways to clearly and openly demonstrate to everyone who sees you, that you find the world and its attitudes more appealing than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
One of these is getting "666" tattooed on your forehead.
Another is defiling the temple of God via breast augmentation (notice, I didn't say reconstruction).
Hoss, do people spend a lot of time wondering if breasts are real or fake? This is so beyond my thought process... Though maybe I should take up a new hobby...
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Hoss, do people spend a lot of time wondering if breasts are real or fake? This is so beyond my thought process... Though maybe I should take up a new hobby...
--Ray
NO, I don't think most people do discuss or notice that type of thing a lot.
But the town where I live is just ridiculous. All of these young kids have waaaaaay too much money (from oilfield jobs), and they're going out and buying big cars, big houses, and big breasts (all on credit) to a bizarre extent.
My friends and I were discussing the prevalence of tattoos (especially in this area, where we've imported a lot of ex-cons to work in the oilfield), and President Hinckley's counsel re tattoos and ear rings.
And, they are Elementary school administrators, so they see these women on a daily basis. And they used to be high school teachers, so they saw these women as they were growing up, so they know that they've had enhancements.
And they just asked me, I wonder how he feels about THAT type of practice. I responded that he never said anything against it, but that was likely (in my opinion) because most LDS women would be intelligent enough to make proper choices in that regard, whereas 8 ear rings per ear was becoming commonplace at the time he gave his counsel.
Who knows what stupid, wordly things he'll have to counsel us against in the comming years?
Okay, I am sooooooo very sorry to have derailed the thread.
I think the person referred to in the original scripture was Brigham Young.
Hoss... Why Brother Brigham?
I wonder if it fits the parameters.
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
Has anyone else had an epiphany of sorts when looking at that scripture and wondered if maybe the bondage spoken of is the bondage of sin, and that allegorically speaking, the Lord will (and does) raise up a man (like unto Moses) in the form of the current living prophet who can lead us out of that bondage with power by teaching us Christ's words, mission, and admonishing us to move forward to make the Atonement effective in our lives individually?
Maybe the mark, as Organist mentioned, is indeed allegorical to being marked by sin to the point it is so prominent in our life, like the phyllacteries that became a part of Jewish tradition to help them remember the word of The Lord...
Anyway, in context to the rest of the section, one could take it to mean a couple different things... Since this was about "redeeming" the lands in Missouri from the mobs and the organization of Zion's Camp, it could easily be viewed as a warning / reminder that because of what had happened, the only way things would be rectified was through the use of force and bloodshed at the time. And, based on what the actual outcome of Zion's Camp was, it can as easily be viewed as a subtle reminder that it was not time (according to The Lord's timetable) for this Gideon defense of the modern gathering of the House of Israel to occur, but that He was still working through Joseph to lay the foundations necessary for the work to continue (see verses 19 - 21 and D&C 101:43-60).
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I think I agree with cat on this one. (Must be a sign of the times. )
From the D&C Student Manual, Religion 324-325, page 250 --
"There have been many conjectures concerning this statement. There have even been misguided men who have declared themselves to be this man "like as Moses." Yet, the meaning as set forth in the scriptures, is very simple. In modern revelation the President of the Church is frequently compared to Moses. Soon after the organization of the Church, the Lord said, "no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses" (D.&C. 28:2). In one of the great revelations upon Priesthood, this is more specifically expressed: "the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses" (D.&C. 107:91). The discussion of this question among the Saints led to the following statement in the Times and Seasons (6:922) by John Taylor, then the editor: "The President (of the Church) stands in the Church as Moses did to the children of Israel, according to the revelations." The man like unto Moses in the Church is the President of the Church. (John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 197)"
Just a quick question for Hoss, if he's willing to indulge the derail a moment longer- Do you view Viagra in the same light as breast augmentation? Intelligent LDS men need not be told what to do?
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
No, because Viagra assists a perfectly normal (and necessary for marital bliss) biological function; implants serve only to deface the temple.
FWIW, I think Cat Herder and Coco are correct. Is this "the one mighty and strong" guy, too. Because I had some fundamentalist missionaries stop by my house in Provo while I was at BYU, and we listened to a 40 minute speech about how their prophet was the "one Mighty and strong."
(probably been said already) but maybe "raise up a man like unto moses" is not a specific man but the office moses had, that of prophet... and we should look to Gordon B. Hinckley here and now, rather than wait around for some uber-prophet?
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I was agreeing with you. But... if you don't think that's it, I guess I'm on my own then.
. Sorry I misunderstood.
All our vehicles (4) are paid off as well. There's no beemer in the lot, though. 
