Ten Virgins/Food Storage

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Ten Virgins/Food Storage

arbilad · Head Chef

Mirk mentioned in another thread that some church authority mentioned to him that it would be an unrighteous bishop or stake president that would ask his members to pool their food storage under him. Now, obviously, a reported quote from an anonymous online source is not authoritative. But it makes sense to me. Not only is the command to store food for our physical salvation at some point, but it also helps us spiritually.
You can't live a commandment for someone else. There are few things that have been stressed as strongly as food storage for the past 30 years, and yet most of the church still doesn't have theirs. That's spiritually damaging, as well as physically when the time for need comes.
Obviously the parable of the ten virgins has other applications. But I am convinced that it also applies to food storage. The Lord wants you to have your food storage. If you listen to Him now, when the need isn't immediate, you'll be blessed. If you don't store food because you expect the church or some other ward member to provide for your family when the time comes, that's contrary to the commandments of the Lord to every head of household to provide for his family whenever possible and not shift the burden to someone else.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Yes, I believe Elder Oaks talked about this in a General Conference talk, it is both spiritual and temporal. It specifically referred to members of the Church, not the world in general.

Sharing is being discussed on the Zion's Camp board. I don't think pooling is part of the program, if you share your year's supply with someone who did not get any and it is needed, you have just punished yourself for your own obedience. We have been warned. There are ways for even the most poor to store. A few extras bought at the store, a case of canned wheat from the cannery for $12. It is a sacrifice and we have to meet our own needs, then others if we can, but when someone gets the nice TV, the SUVs, nice vacations, etc, they made their choice. If I then share when the need arises, it is like sharing the oil, there would not be enough.

So many think that is what the storehouse is for, it's not, wouldn't be enough anyway. If a bishop says for everyone to pool, not happening, and I think would be out of line. Food storage is a lot like personal righteousness, you can't really share it for the time when it is really needed, you have it or you don't.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

It's interesting in the parable how the virgins made a *choice* to not share. They could've just poured out their oil... but they analyzed the situation and chose to not share. They did however give the foolish virgins a bit of advice - "Go to them that sell and buy for yourselves." The foolish followed the advice, but by then we know it was too late.

I haven't specifically read this verse with food storage in mind before...
D&C 45:57 For they that are wise and have received the ^atruth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their ^bguide, and have not been deceivedverily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the ^cfire, but shall abide the day.

How many LDSs are deceived into thinking their temporal salvation is not that important so long as they are spiritual enough?

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 09:12, 2007-12-06

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Totally off topic, but the title of this thread made me wonder if part of our Year's storage was to include 10 Virgins...

... or food for 10 Virgins...

... or that if this is some sort of mathematical answer in fraction form: 10 Virgins / Food Storage... and if so what was the original equation...

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 17:30, 2007-12-06

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Valhalla wrote:
if you share your year's supply with someone who did not get any and it is needed, you have just punished yourself for your own obedience.

Isn't this sort of, well, like the exact opposite notion of what happened on the trek west? Where the well-prepared came face to face with the abysmally (and unrighteously) unprepared?

The Mormon Battalion never would have formed if this line of thinking won the day back then. And there would have been a much higher death toll if Brigham wasn't organizing rescue parties to find the remaining wagontrains and bring them to Zion. If we recall, the saints in Zion weren't exactly in the best of situations themselves, but they still managed to part with an ox here and a bushel of wheat there for their brethren stuck in the snow.

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 14:58, 2007-12-06

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

ftr, I don't agree with the 10 virgin interp in regards to withholding food, but who knows... --Ray

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

I've studied the topic for many years. I am not discounting the promptings that the spirit may give to be charitable, however, you will not find anywhere the teachings that an individual is to store food so others don't have to.

arbilad · Head Chef

I'm not sure that the mormon pioneer example applies. They were doing something very difficult at the very edge of their abilities. In most cases, the people crossed the plains with everything they could conceivably bring with them, so when they or people crossing the plains after them ran low on supplies, those who had more than nothing shared with those with those in need.
Even now, we practice the same principle. We pay fast offerings to help those in need, those who are temporarily unable to provide for certain needs. Those who are temporarily better off help those who are temporarily worse off. Anyone receiving fast offering funds or church food is expected to do all that they can to provide for their family and get out of the situation where they are receiving help.
Even in the United Order, where everything was shared equally, you were expected to do your share of the work.
But food storage is a different situation than the pioneers faced. In many ways it is a more spiritual law than a temporal one. The Lord could provide us with manna from heaven if He wanted to in order to keep us alive in any situation. What the Lord is checking with food storage is whether you will obey a principle which seems entirely unnecessary now, but He has been teaching us through His prophets for many decades. You cannot live a commandment for someone, including the principle of food storage.
Nowadays we are very different from the pioneers. We live in a time of plenty when most everyone can afford a year's supply of food, if bought wisely and over time. We've been given plenty of warning. The Lord has told us to provide for our own families wherever possible. This is a case where he has given us decades of warning so that we have time and opportunity to provide for our families in the case of crisis. It seems extremely unlikely that there will be no consequences to ignoring the Lord's counsel to put aside food.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Great post, arbi.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

My $.02.

Like Ray, I don't subscribe to the opinion that the parable of ten virgins applies to withholding food. If the time ever comes that I have and my borother has not, I will share what I have and rely on the Lord to make up the difference.

As far as pooling food storage for redistribution: If I'm asked by priesthood authority, I will. I've already made covenants regarding the Law of Consecration.

And if we're going to quote Bible passages in support of our own positions on food storage, then I invoke the account of the widow of Zarepeth and the Prophet Elijah to support my position :)

alabamabelle · Senior Member

Perhaps the parable of the Ten Virgins is applicable to the PREPARATION end of the stick.

We who have been to the temple have made covenants that bind us willingly to do what we should do for the kingdom of God. I don't think it is wrong to expect other Saints to prepare for themselves and their family.

And based on the story of the Ten Virgins, I also believe that all of us show up for the accountability phase of this sojourn on earth. Eventually, we all see suffering in our life.
If we ARE called upon to share whether by priesthood authority or circumstance, I do believe that the Lord will make good any supposed losses we might encounter. However, I believe that if we are prepared, we need not fear. (That doesn't mean life will just be peaches and cream!)

So relating to the Ten Virgins to food storage, if I chose to ignore the counsel to store food and supplies and, since I live in a rural area, I might conceivably be MILES away from my nearest LDS neighbor.

If hard times come to me and I have been or I am currently imprudent and don't prepare, just how hungry might I and my family be when we arrive at the doors of those who are upholding their covenants and who might be willing to share?

And what if the people behind door we knock upon AREN'T upholding their covenants and have no storage themselves or are unwilling to share what they have with a brother or sister in "need"?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You know, the more I think about this and the more I watch my man Bear Grylls, I don't think this is exclusively an LDS law. Where you live the law, you get the blessings. There are plenty of non-LDS "out there" who are much more prepared, not only with food supplies, but physically, emotionally and with the skills they need to survive... well, pretty much anything. And they will survive things that kill off the majority of the population and it's not gonna' be because of their temple rec's. That's just the law of the harvest. Which applies to the children of men as a whole. Preparation is key.

Again, I wonder if we sometimes put too little emphasis on our temporal salvation, thinking perhaps it's a noble death to starve while spreading our supplies thinly over a multitude of slackers? (And ftr, I do not consider Elijah in that category.)

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

"Im not going to share my food storage with slackers." I can understand that sentiment from a number of perspectives. For myself, I cannot adopt it. Here are two passages (among many) that shape the way I feel about this topic:

The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs. - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. p. 241

And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish. Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind? - Mosiah 4:16-19

In sharing this, my intention is not to engage in argument with or to pass judgment upon those who, under direction of the Spirit, feel and prepare otherwise. This is what's right for me and my family.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of a choice, where not everyone will "win" ie. survive. Is it a higher road for me to take food from my children and give to those who could've prepared for themselves had that been their priority? Maybe others are looking at it and counting on a miracle (my year's supply will actually feed 5,000) but I don't. Maybe that's my own lack of faith.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 10:52, 2007-12-09

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Coco... my opinion is closer to roper's than yours, but I don't personally believe this it is a "greater faith/lack of faith" issue. I do think it is a "living close to the spirit" issue. That said I feel that whatever the spirit tells you, tells roper, tells mirk... beats into ray... or plunks me on the head with...

is the right thing for that family, and should be respected and "listened to", by that family.

I am not convinced there IS one right answer. But what I am reading from the posts in this forum is that we agree on some fundamentals... 1) that preparation for all of us is necessary and 2) it plays a key roll in our not fearing the future.

I agree that anyone who does not prepare has no "right" to expect the Lord to help them or to provide for them, we have been warned and forewarned for too long... I just don't believe my heart and mind will be able to stand by and watch those I care about... outside of my family even... suffer alone... Not if I have a way to help them...

Because of that, I have tried to be somewhat over prepared in some ways... and it is amazing to me the ways that Heavenly Father has blessed us in our preparation. By the same token, I have seen many miracles regarding our food storage and unemployment... I believe in the feeding of the 5000 in a very practical way... But I don't necessarily think that my food storage will accomplish that goal either.

I guess what I am trying to express is that; I pray that when the time come to start making choices about what I will do... I will live close to the spirit... and that I will be able to stand before my Savior and say: "I prepared well, I lived well, I did my best in every way, regarding Thy personal direction... to me." I am still far, far, from that goal.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:
Is it a higher road for me to take food from my children and give to those who could've prepared for themselves had that been their priority?

I'm grateful to live in a place where I won't have to make that choice.

In between Air Force and teaching, I worked as a member of our city's disaster preparedness team. Even in a worse-case scenario, e.g. a pandemic and quarantine, basic services provided by our city and the local economy (potable water, food, shelter, power) could be restored in a relatively short period of time. I understand that consideration is especially location-specific. What that means for me is that I can supply the necessities of life for my family and for other families for a few months. It also means that for where I live (being 100% dependent on public utilities) having enough money in savings for three months of living expenses is every bit as important as a years supply of food.

I like the way Polly expressed the concept of preparedness in terms of accountability.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper wrote:

under direction of the Spirit, feel and prepare otherwise. This is what's right for me and my family.

This is why I stress to people that spiritual preparedness drives the temporal aspects. It will make you (roper, polly, coco etc.) make the right decision for your family.

I think it is clear that several of the "sharers" here have given some thought and deliberation to this concept. The problem is the vast majority of the members don't think it out...in fact the vast majority of the "sharers" have done nothing and expect those that have to do all the sharing. I don't believe that HF will just wipe away thier disobedience without any consequences.

I actually do have extra food stored and my personal goal is to have a two year supply for my family. That gives me some wiggle room, for whatever reasons I made need some. If the spirit prompts I will listen...I just honestly don't think that the spirit is going to do much prompting. I may very well be wrong about that. In the meantime, I'm lucky that my bishop has sent me out into the ward to teach preparedness and that it has been so well received by so many. Most are doing something to get thier storage going and that is a blessing for them. I just hope they all catch the vision and then the issue won't come up in our ward.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

PollyAnna wrote:

or plunks me on the head with

Throws a cow at... smile

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

That was good Polly and I get your point. I actually DO hope that I am able to help others who are in need... I'm having a hard time putting my finger on my hang-up...

Roper wrote:

Cocobeem wrote:
Is it a higher road for me to take food from my children and give to those who could've prepared for themselves had that been their priority?
I'm grateful to live in a place where I won't have to make that choice.

But we WILL have to make this choice, won't we? I realize you don't subscribe to the Ten Virgins parable being applicable here - I only started thinking of it in this way a few days ago... But the wise virgins (and I would assume "wise" is something positive, something HF wants us to be) made a thoughtful decision to not share their resources... there was a choice and discernment involved. You're losing me with your comment because I think you're saying we won't have to make choices with how to use our resources.

Unless you're saying we'll all undoubtedly know via personal revelation.

And I sort of agree on the saving of a year's income. We do that, too. Although with the horror stories of hyperinflation, it almost seems like it could turn to bite us in the bum. Maybe we should keep 2, 3, or 7 years of non-perishable food instead?

arbilad · Head Chef

Cocobeem wrote:
I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of a choice, where not everyone will "win" ie. survive. Is it a higher road for me to take food from my children and give to those who could've prepared for themselves had that been their priority? Maybe others are looking at it and counting on a miracle (my year's supply will actually feed 5,000) but I don't. Maybe that's my own lack of faith.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 10:52, 2007-12-09

I honestly don't see the miracle of feeding the thousands being applicable in this specific case. Miracles follow faith. What faith have you demonstrated if you've been told your entire adult life to store food and you haven't. Now, I won't rule out this sort of thing happening. After all, financial miracles still occur for those who don't pay their tithing. It's just that those who don't pay their tithing have no guarantee of financial miracles like full tithe payers do. It's the same thing here. If you haven't gathered your food storage, even though you've been told to repeatedly and with as much emphasis as they can give to it, then maybe a miracle will occur and you will be provided for temporally with the food you need. But you have no promise of it.
Like Mirk said, is the Lord going to rob justice and say that, well, you ignored me for 40 years, but I'll ignore all that and provide for you anyway?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

It's not about "them" and what they did or didn't do to prepare. Or how deserving they may or may not be. That's not a judgment I'm going to make.

It's about me and what kind of disciple I hope to become.

-- Edited by Roper at 16:15, 2007-12-09

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Roper wrote:

It's not about "them" and what they did or didn't do to prepare. Or how deserving they may or may not be. That's not a judgment I'm going to make.

It's about me and what kind of disciple I hope to become.

-- Edited by Roper at 16:15, 2007-12-09

arbilad · Head Chef

Roper wrote:
It's not about "them" and what they did or didn't do to prepare. Or how deserving they may or may not be. That's not a judgment I'm going to make.

It's about me and what kind of disciple I hope to become.

-- Edited by Roper at 16:15, 2007-12-09

Exactly - we need to be the best disciples we can be. We will be judged ultimately for what we did or did not do.
That is why it is vital for everyone to get their year's supply. It is a commandment of God to do so. We have been warned repeatedly and strongly. I've made significant financial sacrifice to get mine.
That, in my opinion, is the whole point of food storage - we demonstrate our willingness to listen to a commandment which has a benefit that appears to be really far off, or may even never be needed. How many saints have passed on who where faithful to the Lord and had a year's supply their whole adult lives? And yet I'm sure that they were blessed for it, even if they never used it.
The Lord has provided this warning as the means he has chosen for us to provide for our families in case of trouble (and not just an apocalyptic scenario). He could have chosen manna from Heaven or whatever. He chose a method that would require us to exercise great faith and grow spiritually.
Whether or not you share when the time comes, people who have not followed this commandment will have missed out on a tremendous spiritual blessing. Whether the disaster is just a month or two and sharing on your part means simply that everyone eats and is happy, or you share and everyone starves when the food runs out, or you don't share and your family lives while everyone dies, the fact is that those who don't listen to the Lord's counsel will miss out on promised blessings.

-- Edited by arbilad at 08:17, 2007-12-10

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Elder Oaks' talk, worth the read: http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=talk_preparation.htm

From Elder Perry: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=da4b6e9ce9b1c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

We want to be found with oil in our lamps sufficient to endure to the end. President Spencer W. Kimball admonished us:

In reviewing the Lords counsel to us on the importance of preparedness, I am impressed with the plainness of the message. The Savior made it clear that we cannot place sufficient oil in our preparedness lamps by simply avoiding evil. We must also be anxiously engaged in a positive program of preparation.

He also said: The Lord will not translate ones good hopes and desires and intentions into works. Each of us must do that for himself (The Miracle of Forgiveness, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1969, p. 8).

On a daily basis we witness widely fluctuating inflation; wars; interpersonal conflicts; national disasters; variances in weather conditions; innumerable forces of immorality, crime, and violence; attacks and pressures on the family and individuals; technological advances that make occupations obsolete; and so on. The need for preparation is abundantly clear. The great blessing of being prepared gives us freedom from fear, as guaranteed to us by the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants: If ye are prepared ye shall not fear (D&C 38:30).

Just as it is important to prepare ourselves spiritually, we must also prepare ourselves for our temporal needs. Each of us needs to take the time to ask ourselves, What preparation should I make to care for my needs and the needs of my family?

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Here I thought we were talking about storing virgin olive oil. My bad.

-- Edited by Duke of Mirth at 14:36, 2007-12-11

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It's always good to have some of that on hand, in case someone needs a priesthood blessing.