Waterboarding

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Waterboarding

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

What's waterboarding? (I know Sen. McCain is disappointed...)

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Not a link. A copy and paste? You're kidding, right? Can't you just tell me in like 20 words or less? Is it like Chinese water torture?

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

I am still not convinced that there is strong evidence that torture is effective for legit intell. Once thats unanymous then there is valid reason to discuss the morality and proper application of such. Am I wrong?

Randy · Senior Member

I'm 99.999999% against torture, but have no problem with waterboarding if its purpose is to obtain necessary intelligence.

Torture /= waterboarding

Torture inflicts pain.

Waterboarding inflicts fear.

There have been no major terrorist attacks on US soil since 2001. Intelligence services since 2001 have had waterboarding available to them. No coincidence, I think.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Leaving the ethical considerations aside for a moment and speaking as a former intelligence officer: Intelligence extracted by torture is far less reliable than intelligence gained through other means. There are three reasons for this. 1) Most people will say anything to stop the torture and cases abound where people have made up very convincing lies. 2) The people who have the really valuable intel have also been trained to withstand torture. 3) Even the very limited effectiveness decreases rapidly over time as the person becomes abjectly despondent.

With pragmatics addressed, I'll say that I think torture is just as damaging to the person performing it as it is to the person receiving it. I believe it to be abhorent in the extreme and support the immediate and permanent cessation of its use.

America is above it and we don't need it.

Randy · Senior Member

That's right, Roper. That's why the US doesn't use torture.

Unless, of course, you know something we don't know, and you probably do.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

In my understanding, waterboarding is a method of torture. The president (or anyone) should absolutely not be given the authority to use it.

-- Edited by Roper at 19:48, 2007-12-04

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, the question, in the context of dealing modern day Gadiantans and their sympathizers becomes...

WWCMD

(What Would Captain Moroni Do?)

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Swear an oath of peace or we will inflict the wounds of death on your bodies.

DaKnife · Senior Member

From my understanding, waterboarding isn't really torture, for the reason mentioned above, in that it does not cause pain, just immediate yet temporary fear. It is very effective, and few can tolerate it for more than a couple minutes before breaking. Yet I have seen footage of one demonstration where the volunteer submitted to it for almost thirty minutes. I wish I had the link to that footage to share.

As to torture in general. Torture is not effective for the reasons roper listed. The US Army does not use torture, and is in fact very speciific as to who can question a detainee and how. Only a trained Interrogator (a specific job field in the Army) can question using any technique other than simple direct questions. I cannot however; speak authoritatively for other Agencies.

That said, our Army interrogators are extremely hamstrung on what questioning techniques they are allowed to use. For a good example of what is allowed read this about what is allowed and what is not.

Some (other places) have said that it doesn't matter if we think it is torture, others (other nations for example) have declared it to be torture, but does that make it so. The UN just declared the Use of a Taser to be torture, are we thus obligated to remove the Tasers from all the Law Enforcement Agencies across the country? (Note: I'm not trying to derail the topic here so please don't let the currently hot topic of tasers cause a derail). Or is it open to further study? I don't know, but it seems to be effective, causes no pain, and leaves no marks (though that is not a criteria since there are many ways to torture sans marks).

BTW even though it's designed to be a secret poll I'm willing to share the fact that I voted: Yes but it's not a topic for presidential candidates.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Waterboarding is torture. We settled that definition legally when we tried and convicted Japanese interrogators for doing it to captured US personnel in WWII. It was defined as a war crime then.

I'm with Sen McCain on this one. If anyone can speak authoritatively about what does and does not constitute torture, he can.

Two questions for those of you who think it's not torture: Do you understand what it is and how it's carried out? If a police officer thought your teenage child was a gang member, would you be okay with the officer waterboarding your child to get intel on other gang members? After all, it just inflicts temporary fear.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

While I may not agree that the technique is classical torture, I guess I have to agree with Roper now that since in post WWII war crimes trials that it was defined as such legally.

So, does that then apply to spy / intelligence organizations as well as the military? Probably, and likely it should. I don't know that it does though. If it does, then perhaps there is a reason to create a very tightly monitored loophole to use it in special situations after direct executive approval only.

Of course, then we have the slippery slope argument...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Interesting opinions all around, I really don't have much to add, and I'm often pursuaded by the Rope-meister, so thanks for sharing your opinion, Ropey! (and everyone else)

I do think there's a slippery slope argument on both sides of this discussion. Suppose we define Waterboarding as torture... what else might be that?

Withholding food for say 6 hours? Is prison torture? Is prison with your cellmate being Rosie O'Donnol torture?

I am also very wary of treating foreign nationals as US citizens when it comes to legal rights, especially when their intent is to destroy us. So of course this brings up a lot of undefined and gray areas for me...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I say get 'em drunk or use truth serum... do we do that?

arbilad · Head Chef

I think that a definition of torture including waterboarding is easy to come up with. How about "Anything that inflicts pain or fear of imminent death"? After all, the reason that waterboarding works at all is that you panic when you think you're drowning. You're in fear of your life. That's why, when they train you how to save a drowning swimmer in boy scouts, they tell you to grab them from behind. A panicking drowning person could bring you both down.
That definition leaves out the slippery slope stuff that Ray postulates. Being in a cell with Rosie O'Donnel does not put you in imminent fear of your life. You'd need Martin Short for that

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Interesting. So I can do what I want, as long as the person knows they're not gonna die?

Let's bring back the Rack! ;)

Oh wait... that would inflict pain...

Bring back Nordstrom Rack!

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 13:04, 2007-12-05

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

Roper wrote:

Leaving the ethical considerations aside for a moment and speaking as a former intelligence officer: Intelligence extracted by torture is far less reliable than intelligence gained through other means. There are three reasons for this. 1) Most people will say anything to stop the torture and cases abound where people have made up very convincing lies. 2) The people who have the really valuable intel have also been trained to withstand torture. 3) Even the very limited effectiveness decreases rapidly over time as the person becomes abjectly despondent.

With pragmatics addressed, I'll say that I think torture is just as damaging to the person performing it as it is to the person receiving it. I believe it to be abhorent in the extreme and support the immediate and permanent cessation of its use.

America is above it and we don't need it.

THANK YOU!
What your thoughts on IRAN/Contra and Operation Northwoods?

Whats your feeling regarding morality and curruption within CIA and even FBI?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Pain is a really realitive term too. I mean, what if it's just really really annoying?

Like if I was to sing to them nonstop for like three days... really badly... (all good vocalists can sing really badly, btw... :)

Of course then if the bomb plot's going off tomorrow, the guy might be able to endure... hrm...

What we really need are telepaths with the ability to probe minds...

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

I'm often pursuaded by the Rope-meister, so thanks for sharing your opinion, Ropey! (and everyone else)

Ummm, I don't think I'm comfortable with that level of influence wink

hiddentreasuredotws · Senior Member

It takes righteous power and influence to stand against its opposition.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ummm, I don't think I'm comfortable with that level of righteousness wink

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I don't think I'm comfortable with the level of discomfort my indigestion was giving me last night.

Roper, I'll save you the post... you aren't comfortable with it either...