I think that paying well to attract and retain top talent is a good idea. The article does its best to make it appear as if the BSA salaries are excessive. But, for instance, they compared the salaries of top BSA executives to the average salary of such high paid professions as obstetricians.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
The article has a definite slant to it to make the BSA look bad, or at least questionable. And most of the people who commented on it are taking the attitude of witch hunt... Really tacky of people to take the attitude "I had a problem / bad experience with Scouts once and this just confirms that the whole thing is a sham... the Church needs to get rid of it's association with it."
What it tells me more is that these people do not understand that they are questioning The Lord in so taking that sort of attitude. The Lord will reveal through his Prophet if there is to be an end to the association... sad sad sad statement about the selfishness and petty envy of so many people who commented on the article.
1. The salaries earned by Scout Executives at the national and the local level are indeed earned. If you don't believe it, then let those that are doing the "investigative / expose" reporting switch positions with them and see how long it takes for them to get to that point. Comparing their salaries to that made by members of Congress or the judiciary is ludicrous, because often those individuals are pretty well off to begin with. They have had successful careers in the private sector for years before going into the politics.
2. Fundraising efforts big in the Utah councils, such as Friends of Scouting, what has not been mentioned is that LDS troops (who make up the bulk of the troops out there I would venture a guess) do not do the fundraising that the "gentile" councils do... they are not doing the door to door popcorn stuff that is a revenue share thing for the troop and council. Friends of Scouting is big because it has been requested by the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve and General Young Men's Presidency that those who can do so in a Ward support Scouting financially by this means as other funding sources locally and nationally (notably United Way) have withheld part or all their donations of money and in-kind type things (cheap rent, etc.) to try and force social engineering agendas on the BSA (e.g. force them to adopt and accept pro-homosexual and other pc philosophies).
3. BSA council programing is indeed more complex than a lot of the other youth groups out there. In fact, in our area, a lot of the other groups end up using BSA facilities for their camping. Why, even the LDS girls camps in our area utilize BSA camps... So, the job of executives and professional Scouters are not just summer or part time. They are, as the article pointed out full-time, often 6 days a week (or more during summer camp season).
4. Thrifty does not mean miserly. Thrifty means wise in the use of resources. If the council is getting what it is paying for, then that is thrifty and value added.
5. $50K is too much salary for a professional? I think not. Particularly for someone who is trying to support a family off that and could be making more money in the private sector. Professional Scouters / Scout executives are not people who can't get job elsewhere. These are intelligent people who have chosen this career path because it is something they enjoy... not because it is something they seek to get rich from. The qualifications are as rigorous as other comparable jobs in the private sector. They have to be college educated, and often give up careers in the private sector to become BSA executives. Note, the salary is not the starting salary either... as the article mentioned, that is more along the lines of those who have been at it for a while...
6. Right, wrong, or indifferent... you pay market rate for competent, trained, and experienced leaders.
I think this comment says it all...
I've been "called" to lead scouts at every level, and despite the fact I've never received a dime for it I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
But if I were *hired* by an organization to it *full time* then you're darn right I'd want to be well-compensated, or I wouldn't do the job.
Everyone thinks they're underpaid while everyone else is overpaid. I highly doubt that 99% of the people complaining about these salaries would turn down the job or return part of their paycheck.
No, they'd take it straight to the bank, because they'd believe they deserved it.
Then there is this comment:When my oldest son was 5 years old I fought and started Tiger Cubs in Lake Havasu City, Az. Then I spent the next 5 years running the only pack in the area. Pack # 8, Den 6 (5 other dens did not succeed in the past). I did everything because there was no one else to help. I started off with 3 boys and when I moved 5 years later there was 174 boys in Cub Scouts. I had a good group of parents that came to every pack meeting, camp out, hiking trip etc and one took over when I moved. We were never paid anything other then the gratitude of the boys and the families. All of our activities, supplies, merit patches, etc came out of my pocket. The parents that could help financially did but they were few. Everything I did was for my sons and the other boys, not for me or a church. We were not sponsored by a church but met at the boys schools. I got the community to stand behind us and donate all that they could to help out. **Continued on next post** Factual Comparisons | 12:20 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007 It's clear that many on this list haven't a clue how scouting functions, why its set up the way that it is, and why the pay is where its at for some top professionals. Some commenters have made comparisons that don't equate the same to other professions. Its ok in your minds to pay your School Superintendant high 6 figures, but a Executive Director of a council can't? Yet he has more employees, more "students" and more at risk then the superintendant. Utah has 3 top professionals in scouting for the whole state, serving hundreds of thousands of youth, while the school system has how many people earning 6 figures? How many of them are "top execs?" Your entry level BSA professional gets about 36k, yet the job is more like a high school principal, then a teacher. How many of you would want to be a high school principal - and get paid 36k? How many of you would want to do that job and then have to raise all the money for your school and its programs - as no state/federal funding pays for your school? Your BSA pros earn their keep. Get the facts.
And then this one: After reading through many of these comments, I am surprised at the ignorance of people in regards to Scouting and what makes it function. I spent three years as a professional Scouter. I loved the job, but had no personal life. I often worked from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night, sometimes six or seven days in a week. I was responsible for every aspect of the program within my district. I recruited boys and leaders, did training, organized Scout and day camps, supervised district leadership, and much more. I left because I was having to make too many sacrifices of family and personal time. Good Scout leadership at the professional level is worth every penny and probably much more. What other program teaches boys to be men and men of integrity. I would trade one good Scouting professional for a dozen average school teachers. Even though I haven't been employed by BSA in 25 years, I have continued my annual financial support (even though I have five daughters) because it is one of the programs that can really make a difference in our nation.
And this one was well thought out as well: I wonder if all who have complained about the Scout executives' pay also complain that Bronco Mendenhall's salary is supposedly more than $500,000 annually. I suppose the only way to know if the executives are worth what we pay them is to replace them with people currently worth (and getting paid), let's say, $40,000 and see if the Scout program runs any better, the same or worse. I am not willing to make that kind of a risk. Do we need to re-evaluate the execs' salaries? Probably, but let's not have the program dissolved over an article that makes most of feel underpaid.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I went over across the river to see the conversation that started this thread...
Poor, unfortunate, misleading soul who started the thread over there.
Anyway, I would challenge the "statistics" this individual is claiming they found at BLS. I went and found some statistics too (after an rather hard search to even find something like what they claimed they found).
http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/sp/ncbl0961.pdf
This is as of June 2006... the file is kind of lengthy, but:
page 3-1 shows a mean annual earnings for Chief Executive of $220,317 page 3-7 shows a mean annual earnings for Lawyer of $116,375 page 3-12 shows a mean annual earnings for Physicians and Surgeons $127,020 ("" for Anesthesiologists $178,493) ("" for Family & General Practitioner $137,084)
And this was just for "Civilian Full-time workers". It goes higher for the mean annual earnings for "Full-time private industry workers", $240,903, $126,530, and $139,849 respectively...
And you know what, those figures I think are created from throwing everyone in the nation in the same pot, regardless of company size or geographic location... and it is wages only. It is not Total Compensation...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Does the compensations seem high, on the surface yes. In comparrison to what one can earn as a Superintendent of a public school it is not too far off. When compared to executives of other corporations and even some non profits it is actually pretty paltry.
All that I will say in my defense is that I am a little "intense" about this topic... Admittedly it is one of MY buttons... but I didn't think anyone was unkind to the OP...
Mostly I care so much because I have a "stake" in over 50 Eagle scouts, counting all the boys in my extended family and those that we (hubby & I) have worked with over the years in our troops. I should wear a sign that says: "Don't mess with an Eagle MOM with this many 'pins' "... (BTW, most of those boys are also D2G and On My Honor recipients.) THEY earned those awards... not us.
FWIW... I've heard this argument for a long time, about once every 3 years someone publishes an "expose" of the outrageous BSA corruption at the top. The last time was the year that Son2 was struck by lightning at a BSA camp here in AZ. He was following directions to the letter and sheltered in the area he was directed to...
His hospital bill was approx $126,000.00, he had to be life-flighted with a leader that was also struck, to the hospital... and was in the trauma unit almost all night. The GC Council's HR person called me a week later, about the time she figured the bills would start coming in... and walked me through the process of filing for the insurance... The BSA paid more than 80% of those costs. Like the church the BSA carries the rider on their insurance. Son2's heart stopped more than once, and he IS a miracle of good leaders that did all the right things, some of those were paid leaders, with medical training. The BSA Council Exec (also paid) called me every month for almost a year, to check on Son2's progress, and I KNOW that he personally prayed for MY son to have no lasting effects from that summer camp event. He doesn't... at least none that we can see now.
I suppose that the church leadership probably would love it if the organization could be all volunteer... but we live in a real world... not Xanadu... Still I am convinced that the brethren are aware of how much it takes to keep the organization going. They also know that if we pulled our support the program would fail quickly as we are one of the biggest investors... So they stay connected on purpose, for reasons that have been stated on the church website for years.
Beyond all of that "we" (my extended birth family) are a scouting family... that goes way back to daddy... (he was born in 1911). We as a family have worked very hard to keep our boys safe and provide lots of training and info to those that need it on local levels, we have donated thousands of hours to helping boys be good leaders, many of those boys are fine men, fathers and church leaders today. Scouts leaders and boys from my family have fed (out of the back of scout cook trailers, amid the tents of the Red Cross and Salvation Army in parks) earthquake victims, flood, & fire evacuees, and a myriad of other natural disasters survivors in 12 states... My late brother was personally the scoutmaster of 231 Eagle scouts over a 35 year period. They were nearly ALL at his funeral and saluted in his honor ONE last time...
When my parents died, in lew of flowers they asked for donations be made to the the PEF, the General Mission Fund or the BSA, and they were tremendously please to have 13 of their 19 grandsons achieve the rank of Eagle Scout... the only award ceremony they will have missed "physically" will be Son2's later this month... but I suspect beyond the veil they will still be there to cheer him for a job WELL DONE!
So yeah... I guess you could say that I believe in scouts...
Why, would you say that she's a heavy-handed moderator?
I said what I said because I understood during my time across the river that their household has reason to feel quite differently about Scouting (if they so choose). So, it is nice to see the discussion has been free from interference, particularly since a number of folks are getting kind of passionate about it.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Passionate? who's getting passionate over there? Oh yea, me for one. I too expected the thread to get closed, but EDG has participated in the debate on the side of the BSA, thus the reason I think it's stayed unlocked.
The exposes that bother me are the ones where the story reveals that the head honcho has been skimming money to live like a king. A story popped up on Sunday about a tv evangelist who was taking money from church coffers to buy sports cars and vacation homes. That really bothers me. If the BSA execs were taking money out of scout funds besides their salary and living high on the hog, I'd bring down upon them the wrath of Janey (yeah, scary, I know). But if they're just taking what the Board has voted to pay them, I'm fine with that. even if it is enough to live high on the hog.
That's a good point, Janey. I think, besides the shock-envy factor of finding out someone makes considerably more than the average Joe Schmoe, I think as a society we have become jaded to think that anyone who does make a 6 figure income does live high on the hog, extravagantly, etc. I mean we see it in celebrities and sports figures every day. There has been ample evidence of it by a number of top executives in publicly traded companies.
But, I just don't think you can expect that from a BSA exec... Sure, they may have a nice home and the like, but no one is taking into account that they may also be rolling some of that compensation back into personal donations to the program they are leading too.
There is a thing called philanthropy that happens probably a lot more than we hear about... sure, we hear about when a celebrity does something charitable (cuz afterall they live for the limelight... most of them). But there are a lot of people with means and resources that are 100% theirs that do a lot of good with their money that is not heard about. I heard on the news the other day of an anonymous benefactor donating $100MM to the City of Erie, PA, to be distributed amongst the local charities.
When I hear about others griping about what someone else gets paid, I have to seriously wonder (because I ask myself it as well), if I were paid that way, would I be generous with it and help others or would I be miserly or would I be like a lot of people and just spend, spend, spend to get me every possible possession I could lay hold of.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
(BTW, most of those boys are also D2G and On My Honor recipients.) THEY earned those awards... not us.
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