Warring with that stubborn child...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Warring with that stubborn child...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

War is bad... find another solution!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Get a goodly supply of plastic army men and have a war with the child in the backyard...

When you capture her HQ, tell her that the terms of her army's surrender includes she has to do her homework... bwa-ha-ha!

She may not be depressed, but there may be other health things going on Ray... have you had her checked out for mono?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

rayb wrote:

Can little kids be clinically depressed?

--Ray

Yes.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

She's in what, first grade? How much homework does she have, anyway?

Why doesn't she want to do her homework? Is it busywork and boring? If she's learning the concepts at school, progressing in her skills, etc., why fight over homework? If she doesn't want to do it because it's too hard, that's a different matter. Has her vision been checked lately?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

She's in second grade. Though I contend we should've held her back. She in the slowest class, and honestly they just move soooo slowly.

In terms of homework, she has about a page of math to do each day, and a very small, simple five page book to read.

I'm really concerned because she's not keeping pace with the majority of the children in her age range, and as a result, will be setting the pace for the rest of her education.

That said, she has a tendency to fixate on things she wants to the exclusion of all other things. Everything is a control issue with her. She's also very organized and is my cleanest most orderly child. She's the one who on a weekend will suggest we spend time cleaning the house as "fun".

She's also the most unhappy of my children. The one most likely to say she hates dinner--not because she doesn't like the food, but because she didn't make it... or didn't somehow get first choice, or didn't get to decide what we were eating.

--Ray

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

Ray, it is so important for vocabulary growth that she keeps pace with the class. However, you read to your family a lot and that oral exposure may be above her classmates. She may be really worn out at the end of the day. I vaguely remember my little sister being really tired when she was in first grade.

On the plus side, it can be good to voice one's opinion rather than keep it bottled up. If she doesn't like something, she is pretty vocal.

I know they say the keep the lines of communication open and all that jazz. It really is so important though.

I hope it is not a perfection thing that she doesn't want to do it because she is upset if she does not do it perfect. I say this as she is very organized and also loves to clean. I have seen children so afraid of making a mistake that they don't even want to draw a line.

Children with a healthy attitude know that we learn from mistakes. And they don't blame themselves if they get it wrong. They know that they can learn if they work hard. It does not have to be pefect!

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I don't know, there's a whole slew of things that could cause her to act like that, illness being one of them as well, like Cat suggested (i.e. mono). It could be psychological too, who knows?
I would talk to your pediatrician and then perhaps her teacher, because if she is doing this now in second grade it is likely to get worse.

Show her who's boss Ray!

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 20:52, 2007-11-09

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Is her room really a punishment? I ask because so many kids these days have TVs, radios, toys, DVD player, video games, etc in their room that they would rather spend time there.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Poncho29 wrote:

Show her who's boss Ray!

Yeah... Use the old "Pull my finger" trick! It works with kids in almost as few times as unruly Deacons / Scouts who earn the right to sit with their Moms in RS...

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

"Show her who's boss." Yeah, I'm one to speak. Don't I and sometimes "we" battle with a certain, stubborn 10 year old almost on a daily basis Cat?

glumirk · Senior Member

Is it possible she could have slight autism? I babysat a kid like that once, and for awhile all he would eat were mashed potatoes because everything was gross. And if he didn't feel that he was in charge of something, he would literally throw a temper tantrum, feet banging, crying, screaming and everything. Then he would get frustrated that he was frustrated and it was all the worse, and then he'd flop on his bed feeling helpless.

His parents worked a lot with him, and with a doctor to get him on some good medicine, and he is doing so much better. Partly because they had to look at him with a different perspective, and figured out ways to make him think he was in charge. For instance, turning something into a game that he can easily win, makes cleaning up his room a lot better. He doesn't even have to win anything, it just makes him feel better. Maybe I just spoiled him though...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

My little sister was much like you describe as a child Ray. She was undiagnosed until almost 10, but is dyslexic. She was so good at covering... no one guessed. When she finally got diagnosed after a very observant teacher noticed some behavior issues that did not make sense in such a bright and capable child... her whole negative attitude changed. Homework (especially numbers) absolutely frustrated her all through school, even with good education help, but she read pretty well actually by 2nd grade.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Actually I was thinking along the lines of Polly and Glumirk from the start as well, that perhaps she could be on the autism spectrum (not necessarily be "truly" autistic) or having some other sort of learning disability that interferes with the way she functions with other people.

But, considering what little info we have to go on, Cat felt we shouldn't jump to conclusions.
(We didn't want to scare you or freak you out Ray). Which is why I suggested the best thing to do is talk to your pediatrician and your child's teacher and perhaps even your school's psychologist.
Because the school psychologist is always involved when a school is making an assessment of a child to determine his or her's educational needs.

That's a call that only you and your wife can make Ray. Unless your teacher feels it is enough of a concern and the school comes to you first.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Poncho, I still battle with my "very beautiful, very smart and VERY strongly-opinionated", 20 yo sometimes... Strong children are often a handful until they start to have their own families, and realize just what they put YOU through... Ask me how I know this???

Ray... make sure you don't just discount things that could matter... as parents we don't always see the forest for the trees.

There is lots of good advise here.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, how are her artistic abilities? You mentioned that she keeps everything orderly. That's a hallmark of children with a high spatial intelligence (Gardner's research). Artisitc abilities are another indicator.

She may also be very high in leadership abilities and may be applying them in the way a seven-year-old understands.

Our education system focuses mainly on verbal/linguistic and logico/mathematical learning activities. For teachers and curriculum writers, it's really challenging to design and deliver instruction for children with high spatial or leadership intelligence.

And my $.02 about warring, stubbornness, and control (which is likely worth less than the energy it takes to type this): Let it go. War is Hell. Stubbornness depends on perspective. Control is almost always about issues of domination (or dominion or compulsion, if you prefer) and becomes a non-issue in the presence of love. I'm not implying you don't love your children. You obviously do or you wouldn't be concerned. I've found there are always better ways to accomplish what I want without compulsion or manipulation. D&C 121 helps me remember that.

eta: Math worksheets? Give me a fork to stick in my eye. Applying those same math concepts in real-world situations? I'm engaged for as long as I need to understand the concept and the application. Help me develop a life-long love affair with learning. I don't care about completing a meaningless worksheet or about regurgitating facts on a meaningless exam.

-- Edited by Roper at 16:34, 2007-11-14

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hey Ropey.

Thanks for the advice. I see a lot of natural gifts in this one. I am sure there's some deep dark nefarious reason why I'm messing up her life, etc, but honestly I don't think I could live with just letting her blow off the homework. For one thing, I think achieving good grades in school is important. I think it's important, and I don't want her sisters thinking that because she can blow it off, they aren't expected to do their best.

Further I have four daughters in the same school right now. They all have varying degrees of commitment, homework and school activities to do in a single week. In order to give them time to do their homework, and have time to look it over, etc, I need to spend time with each of them. The enormous time commitment really cuts into the "Me" time. I am afraid that if I dedicate too much time to my kids, I'll lose my identity and become one of those self-actualized individuals who is perfectly content doing nothing more than raising their children in the right way, and we wouldn't want that!?

Nah really my major concern is her literacy. She already struggled with speech for a long time. I think it contributes to her mood. Being unable to communicate her feelings with words, she's feeling the same emotions we all feel but without an outlet. Now she's fallen behind in her reading, another language skill, and she gets equally frustrated.

But the consequences of low literacy is an inability todo the schoolwork that follows. One cannot teach oneself very well when one cannot read the instructions. Of course, there are other skills she could learn... and we give her all sorts of praise and encouragement in that regard.

In fact she's started not only cleaning rooms, she's started decorating them. And she does a superb job. I will have to try working with her art, since I tend to know a bit about that. Maybe I can get a friend of mine to teach her a bit about painting. :)

I dunno... She does work hard, and she loves doing crafts, so I guess I cound incentivize some of her reading practice with painting practice.

Anyhow I wish there were a way to help encourage the intelligence and the person she's meant to be, without all the pain of clashing personalities... but I suppose that's crazy talk. :) heck, my parents are coming to visit this week and I am dreadfully nervous about the matter... I never feel like I measure up to their high expectations. SO I really am trying to keep my own expectations realistic. We just took a nice weekend vacation to the coast, and she loves the beach. I regret having yelled a couple times to get people moving, but it was fun to spend time with all the kids and wife and ditch school for a day.

Also I have started a game with this daughter. Telling a story to her in which the main character is kidnapped by a witch and is trying to escape a terrible doom, and during the journey she comes across these notes and clues that she has to "read", and if my daughter can't read them, it turns out the main character can't either, and so she really works hard to sound out the words in order to save the life of the character in the story... who could die at any moment. :) She really loves it when I tell her stories.

I have enjoyed the helpful suggestions and comments,

--Ray

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

Ray, it is hard for parents to get a child who struggles with reading to practice. It is great that you have a playful way for her to work at it. It is a balance in reading to know when you can jump in and sound it out for her. Also, sometimes it might help to have her guess at the word based on the content rather than trying to sound it all the way out. At least, that is what I have read about teaching reading. Children can try to sound out too much sometimes. There are some flashcards you can get for common site words. My Introduction to Reading Teacher in College believed it was good to learn common site words.

Also, I think it would be good to let her pick out a book based on her interest too for fun. Does she like science more or fiction? I know some children love to read about nature.

Also, it can be confidence building sometimes to go back a level that is very easy for her and then bring it back up to her level and then keep working on going up levels.

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I hear that this is supposed to be a good site for beginning readers.
You may want to check it out.
http://www.starfall.com

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

thanks for continuing to think about me, Zealia. You're great. I'll check out the website.

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Sister Roper and I just started reading "Christlike Parenting" by Glenn Latham. We're only on chapter two. So far we're really liking Dr. Latham's approach. He's a behavioral scientist by profession. He's LDS, but he writes for a much larger Christian audience, basing his ideas mostly on the portrayal of Christ recorded in the New Testament.

I abhor parenting books, especially the Love and Logic approach that's uber-popular right now. I have yet to find a parenting book that doesn't violate fundamental principles of child development or doctrines of the gospel. Maybe Dr. Latham's will be the first. It looks hopeful at this point.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Please let me know what you think, Roper. My wife bought that book a while ago, and has read it. But I've not read it yet. I'd be interested what you think from your childhood development perspective. :)

--Ray

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

Ray, did you see Janey's thread at our other forum where she spoke of the success that her niece has had with a reading program that she used to tutor her.

Also, I hope that you continue to read interesting prose to your daughter so that she can have positive experiences with language and reading. Books for decoding can often be sparse on plot or interest. Dr. Seuss was an exception there!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I found a book very helpful... Some of My Best Friends are Books, by Judith Wynn Halsted.

http://www.amazon.com/Some-Best-Friends-Are-Books/dp/0910707510/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203432723&sr=8-1

You can look up certain behaviors or characteristics and find books that touch on these subjects. Loneliness, confusion... That way you can "bring up" some issue without being the bad guy. Hmm... look what's going on in this book... what do you think of that? etc.... The books are also divided by age group.