Topics that annoy...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Topics that annoy...

nitasmile · Senior Member

The year we had the Pioneer Celebration (1995??) I almost went crazy as it seemed EVERY talk, fireside, lesson, dealt w/pioneers. But I did learn to better appreciate the pioneers.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Nita... that would've been 1997. (150 year anniversary)

I just love all Churchy topics.

I'm enthused about my priesthood lesson on the 11th... .The Prophet Joseph Smith... and the week after that, "Revelation"

Should be fun.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I dunno. It depends on the mood I'm in. Can I vote more that once? No topic really "annoys" me.
Maybe it depends on who's teaching it.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Definitely Pioneers.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

White shirts...

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Missionary work.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

The only thing that annoys me about pioneer talks is they always have to find someone with "pure Utah heritage" to talk and talk and talk. I know that the pioneers that crossed the plains had special challenges, and I do not minimize what they did. But my ancestors struggled and sacrificed to come here, and make it here, and even though it wasn't as difficult (boat, then train), everything they gave up and all of their hardships were still very real, and still for the Gospel. I even consider my MIL, who went against her Southern Baptist family and joined the church at 19, something of a pioneer.

Although I did recently learn that I actually qualify to be in Daughters of Utah Pioneers or somesuch. . . but my grandmother with that ancestry always made my mother (her DIL) without it feel that her heritage is inferior, so by way of my mom, it kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

People may be annoying, but the Church and Gospel are still true! ;)

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

The only topic/theme that annoys me, is one presented on Christmas or Easter that is not Christ-focused.

I don't think I've ever been in a sac. meeting where they did something like this, but other people tell me they've experienced it, so I'm officially annoyed on their behalf. Because dang - that's just not right.

LM

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ok, since other people said Pioneers I'll say it too. I just was afraid to say it.
I admire and am in awe with the pioneers, but I get tired of talks about them. Not all pioneers walked the plains.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

I picked white shirts, but I am completely comfortable with talks on modesty. In my mind, the two things are not the same topic.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

The topic/theme that annoys me is the one in which people complain about a church topic/theme that annoys them. Often I think the whole problem is blown out of proportion by someone who dislikes a topic for some personal reason and unconciously wants to ruin it for everyone else. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone here for their topical dislikes or to state that the topic they dislike is not overblown in their respective spheres of existence. However, I think it does us all good to reflect on why a certain topic aggrevates us so and whether or not it benefits us to dwell on it to a point we feel we have to regularly express that aggrevation to others.

Most often a topic is a problem for us when we 1) aren't doing as we have been told we should, 2) the topic doesn't fit us (for example, we don't have pioneer ancestors), 3) when we feel we've "done it" or are "doing it" (though others may not be), 4) we take an unconventional approach to the topic that not everyone appreciates, 6) the issue is not a matter that has anything to do with our salvation in our opinion and 5) etc., etc. So, really that short list is mostly a list of our problems and not that of others. It is up to us to deal with our struggles, understand the benefit of a topic to others (and perhaps explore how it may actually have a meaning for us) and to ignore those that want to rub a topic in our noses.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Thanks for the comments, TT. That's kinda what I was thinking.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

The only topic/theme that annoys me, is one presented on Christmas or Easter that is not Christ-focused.

Yeah, that would bother me if I had ever seen it. Haven't as yet.

There isn't anything that bugs me much right now... unless you count the benches that are installed in practically every church I have ever been in. Any church, any denomination... Nevertheless, that's not a topic.

I just need the gospel in such large quantities, I guess... it's probably a flaw in me. I don't need to be in church all the time... but I need lots of gospel related topics as a part of my daily life, I am reading like crazy lately... I am like a bottomless pit when it comes to church lately. I think I am driving my family a little nuts...

-- Edited by PollyAnna at 10:31, 2007-10-30

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Just don't go getting translated on us, Polly.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hoss: I put the white shirt thing in there just for you.

This was mostly an exercise in remembering what we've griped the most about...

--Ray

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Ray, you are so very, very kind to me. It is as if you wanted me to participate in this discussion or something.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The Pioneer/geneology combo does it for me because there is always some elitist that has to detail their pioneer heritage with stories ad nasium and strutting like peacocks while the rest of us heathens from the mission field. Or how so and so in their family was a certain general authority and that somehow gives their statement more crediblity. I know I've griped about this before so I should just drop it. In light of the fact that the majority of church members are not from Utah and have no pioneer ancestory I can see how many get tired of the constant pioneer story. I know it is a part of the history of the church but increasingly it is a story that fewer in the church have a personal connection to or as great a emotional connection with as in the past. I guess for me that it has about as much significance to me to celebrate the pioneers as it would for the Nephites in Moroni's time to celebrate the Jaredite crossing every year. Makes for good church history and some interesting gospel learning but beating on it every Sunday wouldn't make them Jaredites or feel like Jaredites. People trying to tell them that they are like the Jaredites of their day probably wouldn't do much for them either.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

The story of the pioneers is our "Out of Egypt" story. We can learn from those people, much as we can learn from the Children of Isreal.

But to walk about pridefully because we have pioneer ancestry is dangerous to our eternal salvation.

To paraphrase a biblical passage: God can raise children of hardy pioneer stock from these here rocks.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

My pioneer ancestor was a big shot and a leader in the Mountain Me-- oh, wait-

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

It is indeed a good story for church history but like the stories of Moses, Nephi, Jared, they all are just as significant in my opinion. I personally feel like puking though whenever I hear people go on about the Martin and Willy handcart companies. Like the Donner party, i just want to scream, "What a bunch of idiots". They were warned and still went. I think the only thing that is good in that whole story is those who went to their aid. But the handcart story is about as inspiring as the Titanic, the destruction of Galvaston, or people that scuba dive too deep and meet trajedy.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I'll refrain from sharing my one pet peeve topic as it just isn't that important. Poncho knows what it is, and she also understands why.

Anyway, to back up what Hoss paraphrased about God raising hardy pioneer stock from rocks... He does it every time someone accepts the gospel and joins the church via baptism and then sticks with it.

Unless we learn to be as dedicated to The Lord and His Kingdom and as sacrificing for that cause as those who have gone before us in the Gospel, we are indeed worse than ungrateful.

(p.s. Jason, I don't think the Nephites as a whole at anytime knew much about the people of Jared...

Perhaps a more apt example would be how the early Nephite Pioneer Day celebrations got perverted by Laman, Lemuel, and the sons of Ishmael families after Nephi, Sam, Zoram, and the others split and left them to fend on their own... What used to be a celebration of thanksgiving probably got turned into a major whine fest of being tricked out of their nice home at Jerusalem, losing their right to "lead", and being rebuked a number of times by Lehi, Nephi, and a number of heavenly beings...

)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I agree with sales about the Willy Martin thing. Totally. That's nothing to brag about, imo.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

My great-great uncle wasn't an idiot... he was the one who was threatened with excommunication by the local presiding authorities if he kept on advising those companies from starting across the plains so late in the season.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

salesortonscom wrote:
They were warned and still went. I think the only thing that is good in that whole story is those who went to their aid.

I'm with you on that one.

We have large numbers in our stake who regularly suggest that we need to make the youth do the "handcart trek to Martins Cove" again. Yeah, inflicting pain on yourself to simulate spirituality is so "Dark Ages."

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cat Herder wrote:
My great-great uncle wasn't an idiot... he was the one who was threatened with excommunication by the local presiding authorities if he kept on advising those companies from starting across the plains so late in the season.

Holy cow. Did he go with them?

I thought the leaders in Salt Lake had counseled them against going so late in the season.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah, I thought they weren't supposed to go, either. Boy- talk about a rock and a hard place! "Be foolhardy or get ex'd!"

Guess it was sort of like MMM in a way...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:
Just don't go getting translated on us, Polly.

Yeah... sure... like THAT will happen... But I might get zapped for my personal level of disobedience!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hoss: I am always secretly disappointed when you don't participate in threads... :)

--Ray

PS> I enjoy the Martin/Willie Handcart stories. I think it speaks volumes for all sorts of things we face today, and the modern interpretations only enhance its meaningfulness to me... Religious Zeal, Worldly Wisdom, Faith, Adversity, Death, Life, the need to help those who we deem undeserving, the "I told you so" disease... I'm curious though, what makes the telling spark such contempt. Is it the way we aren't intellectually nuanced enough for a decent telling, or is it the story itself is just dumb? I'm curious if the atheist has the same attitude about Bible stories in general...

Then again some of my favorite Book of Mormon passages are those about Abinadi and King Limhi's people... the people who held out for a bad idea and were left with the wreckage of Noah's excesses... And of course Helaman Chapter 12 has always been a personal favorite of all time...

-- Edited by rayb at 13:58, 2007-10-30

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

Hoss: I am always secretly disappointed when you don't participate in threads... :)

....the "I told you so" disease... I'm curious though, what makes the telling spark such contempt.

And then I participate, and you are openly disappointed. aww

I don't have contempt for the handcart companies.

I just don't get why THEY are heroes, when, clearly they could have been a little smarter and a little more patient (ie wait until spring), and they would have been just another part of the great unwashed, just like the rest of the pioneers.

I don't like "manufactured" examples.

I have always been under the impression that the Salt Lake leaders counseled them to wait. If I am mistaken in that impression, then I need to add that to my experience of this story. My bad, judgemental attitude would likely change if they were coerced into leaving late by church leadership.

Let me try to explain. I am regularly called upon (at work and in church callings) to help people who (if they had only listened to me) would not need my help. Now, that is fine. But if they were then held up as heroes or some kind of example because they were needy because of their own choices, well, that would annoy me.

So, the Willie/Martin group are a group of needy saints who were helped by a group of men who put their own lives at risk to do so. The rescuers (some of whom died) were the heroes, not those who made incorrect choices and therefore needed saving.

Of course, we all make incorrect choices and are in need of saving. But we don't hold ourselves up as "super-righteous" because Jesus had to sacrifice His life and suffer the atonement for us. Rather, we strive to not make mistakes in the future, and we encourage others to avoid our treacherous path.

I think THAT would be a better lesson to take from the Martin and Willie companies. But it's too hard to get across.

-- Edited by Hoss Cartwright at 13:13, 2007-10-30

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

TOTALLY agree.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hoss Cartwright wrote:

Cat Herder wrote:
My great-great uncle wasn't an idiot... he was the one who was threatened with excommunication by the local presiding authorities if he kept on advising those companies from starting across the plains so late in the season.
Holy cow. Did he go with them?

I thought the leaders in Salt Lake had counseled them against going so late in the season.

Yes. He was one of the sub-captains in the Wylie handcart company. He was returning home from a mission, and this was his next "priesthood" assignment. He had made the trek (or ones similar to it) and knew of the hardships and so forth they would encounter in the regular season, let alone lat in the season. He warned them in open meetings, and Bro. Willie and a couple others who were a bit overzealous got annoyed at him. Eventually, he was threatened with excommunication by some of the local emigration leadership and by the "presiding" elders (the ones who traveled quickly via horse drawn buggy and made it to Salt Lake before the winter storms set in and advised Brigham Young that there were still companies on the trail) for speaking against the plan (and supposedly against Bro. Willie). He stopped when it came time for a vote and when the vote came back that the people would go and not wait until the next season, he said that again was a mistake but that if this was their intent, he would go on and die with them if needs be.

The book The Price We Paid tells about it in pretty good detail from a number of individual's journals.

There were other factors involved in their making the decision to leave late. There were not provisions for them in the area if they stayed, or means by which they could have earned or bought them. They were in a catch twenty-two. It is clear that some of the local leaders (not those in Salt Lake) had not planned well (all the way from England) and that communication had been poor, and were not ready for this group at any stage in the journey before arriving at the handcart embarkation point. The companies also took too long in all their journey stages (pre-embarkation and post). The lesson to be learned from these people's experience, though, is not that of being heros anymore than it is of pointing fingers at certain influential individuals in the hindsight of nearly 150 years. The lesson we should learn is their example and willingness to go into the unknown and their utmost faith in The Lord. It is the refining of both them and their rescuers where they came to know The Lord.

We can not fault the people in the parties for going, or for being zealous to the point of being impatient. No, the tragedy they went through was not predestined to occur, but for all intents and purposes, it turned into their personal Abraham offering of Isaac moment.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

YOu know, Hoss. Being related to such people, I've never in my whole entire experience of being a mormon, really viewed them as "super-righteous" and I wonder if the problem with the story isn't as much the subject as the subjected. :) I find the story fascinating also from that perspective--how a story told can evoke all sorts of interesting feelings of unworthiness or jealousy in ourselves.

Ironically, outside the very sympathetic story of Christ, there is NO human story that isn't rife with some element of human error. Perhaps what you don't like is not the story itself, but the tendency we have as humans to pre-deify others in situations not at all like our own... but really really bad. :)

Personally I think any movement in the direction of God is worth praise, though often I lack the discernment to tell which is which... Clearly you cannot question the motives of the handcart folks... they were clearly motivated by faith... if a bit stupid, and perhaps therein is where we should focus our veneration. Not in the stupidity, but the faithful intention.

Of course the very suggestion may be abhorrent to you. Perhaps faith must always be safe and well-reasoned. My mother is much in that camp... me... not so much...

--Ray

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I always wondered about the Willie/Martin groups until I read more about their situation. As Cat mentions, it was really a darned if you stay, darned if you go kinda thing. There was the off chance they could make it across okay if the weather cooperated...it didn't. Understand the Willie/Martin handcart companies were not the only handcart companies. Those that went during the proper time got to complain about the heat. I still can't imagine making that journey pulling a cart with my stuff in it. The things you do for your faith.

I'm of "mixed" heritage (only one line - my father's father's - being members from early on) but I do enjoy my little bit of LDS family heritage. I gain a lot from my non-LDS family heritage as well. There are several modern pioneers who sacrifice much to become members of the Church. Often it is being disowned by parents and sometimes it is leaving family behind (my MIL and mother respectively). So, when I put together a list of the pioneer companies my ancestors and my wife's ancestors where in I included both my MIL and mother as pioneers. They were converts who endured journeys and left family behind.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cat, thank you very much for the additional information. It is very helpful to me. And Ray, thanks for your comments as well.

See, here is a useful thing. I have an unfortunate tendency to tell people what I really think, which most people find tedious. In this instance, I told people what I think; and they told me things I didn't know in response. And now, my attitude is much better, and my knowledge is much more complete.

And it all happened because I felt the need to say what I was really thinking, and reveal my lack of knowledge.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I apologize if I offended anyone with my view of the Willie and Martin Handcart companies. I get pretty annoyed in church meetings when handcart nuts say the Handcarters were better than the Donnor Party when I see nothing but critical errors in the decision making of both groups. Even had some point out that the Donnor party didn't eat each other but even that probably only happened in one small group of the Donnor party. I get sick of one party being hailed as heros (the Martin and Willie companies) and one as idiots (the Donnor Party) when in my mind they made similarly poor choices. Sure they made their decision in a desire to get to Zion but in my opinion they still made a poor decision. I wonder if sometimes in our own handcart zeal we act hastilly or make our own poor decisions when patience and better planning will still get us where we need to go but with less danger to ourselves and our families.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Not a prob, Jason and Hoss.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of half-baked stuff like you guys indicate that makes any rational person who can spot a FPR want to puke when it gets applied to any set of mormon pioneers.

But, there is also an awful lot that can be learned about them and ourselves by looking at their real experiences. And, if we through the baby (the real stuff) out with the bath water (the cheesy FPR stuff), then we miss out on the enrichment. That enrichment is often nothing more than, 'Hey, they were normal folks too! They weren't perfect, but look at what they managed to do in exercising their faith in The Lord! Maybe I can do something of similar impact as well!'

My surname ancestor (the brother-in-law of the man mentioned above) never got the privilege of being a big name pioneer... he was assigned to stay behind for years and help build wagons... eventually he went west in the... ahem... the famed Outhouse wagon company... (I bet the man's descendants whose name that company was named after changed their name or something...

) "I went west in / with the Outhouse..." Now that is at least good for a laugh or two, even if it doesn't lead to an FPR!

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

At least they didn't have to go behind a rock!

nitasmile · Senior Member

I hope you all don't think I'm bad for saying the thing about the pioneers. I just got tired of it, that's all.

One funny thing from that time: I remember hearing a story about Larry King, I don't recall the source so take it for what is worth or not. But he was describing going to an LDS sacrament meeting. He said something like someone got up and spoke about pioneers and cried. Then someone else got up and talked about pioneers and cried.

While that remark made me laugh, I do respect the pioneers and all they did. I definitely could not have endured all they did.

One other topic that gets to me at times is when people speak about young relatives getting married or having kids. I am happy for them. But rarely do people have the understanding for those that don't fall into those perfect timelines of gospel living. I wish more attention/respect would be given to those that try to live the gospel standards, etc but don't have the corresponding list of blessings/life experiences.

glumirk · Senior Member

I guess my only real pet peeve is when people make comments that don't cause the class any progression.

For instance, I was once in a Gospel Doctrine class where they were talking about the the miracle of the seagulls in Utah. However, the lesson was pretty much a half an hour debate on the size and color of "crickets" vs. "locusts". When the class is only 35 minutes long, and the Spirit is driven by the contention...that's when I get annoyed.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

politics in church turns my crank, unless it's a gospel discussion about the church's stands on freedom of conscience but otherwise I'm all peachy.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I just thought of a topic at church that annoys me... I forgot it cause you left it off the list, ray... and in fact, I am a little insulted, by the slight...

I am annoyed when people talk about my health at church, whether I am there or not... well... not really annoyed actually... but I get VERY VERY bored and I suspect everyone else does as well!!!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I appreciated the additional info on the Willie Martin co's as well. If they were looking at dying by staying put, that's a whole 'nother situation.

I guess one of my pet peeves is when people talk too much when they don't have the facts straight.

They just start making things up like it's the gospel truth... Everyone's buying it hook, line and sinker cuz heck! No one else knows what the heck's going on either... just flapping those lips...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

cat: btw, the church still has some of these communication problems... as evidenced by the missionary who arrives home a week early and no one's family was told that proper time to pick them up. Obviously the consequences are not as dire, but there's a sister in our ward who flew from Mongolia to China to the US and when she arrived in China they weren't going to let her leave because the church had not properly arranged the travel.

--Ray

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I don't know if foreign missions work the same but when I was in the office during my mission one of my responsibilities was getting travel arranged for returning missionaries. I one time created a fake itinerary for a sister missionary who was always asking me when her arrangements were going to be made. The itinerary had her leaving a month later than she was supposed to. biggrin

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

An ignominious death to all the torturers of sister missionaries! furious

Randy · Senior Member

I do have a problem with talks about how we should say "thee," "thou," and "thy" when we're praying.

Full disclosure: I do say "thee," "thou," and "thy" when I pray. Taught by example to do that from childhood. Going with that, a bunch of other archaic language as well, like "canst," "wilt," and "art" (not sure why those talks never mention "thine"). To my ear, though, using "thee," "thou," and "thy" without the other archaic terminology just sounds weird, so I do it even though the talks never mention those other archaic words.

However, I don't get it. Why? What's so great about archaic language?

Old English was just as man-made and inconsistent as New English.

In fact, the meanings of "thee," "thou," and "thy" have changed 180 degrees from the old days. It used to be that when you dealt formally with people, you said "you," "your," and "yours." When you were talking to your close friends and family informally, you said "thee," "thou," "thy," and "thine." Now, we're supposed to use those words because of the distance that they put between us and God.

I agree with the need for reverence, for worship, for recognizing how far God is above us. I'm just not sure that assigning holiness to certain words arbitrarily is the way to accomplish that.

I'm not sure how talks like this are translated into foreign languages. It is my understanding that other languages still commonly use the familiar forms of pronouns (their foreign-language versions of them, of course) that English-speaking people abandoned centuries ago, making them available for beatification.

It is rather jarring when people, perhaps converts who used the Living Bible rather than the King James Version, mess up the grammar. Since we don't have grammar lessons in Sunday School, church leaders I guess don't care about that. They feel that using "thee," "thou," and "thy" invite a reverential atmosphere even if grammatical gaffes that will inevitably result from the use of such might be jarring to listeners whose knowledge of archaic grammar is a little better. Such people perhaps are too rare these days to even worry about, I suppose.

I have myself occasionally found myself befuddled while trying to use archaic language, not sure what word to use. Since I use the same language in both public and private prayers, this confusion seems to have the effect of placing barriers between myself and God. My feeling is that the barriers between myself and God are far too much already without adding any more.

-- Edited by Randy at 16:19, 2007-10-31

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Titus: Someday one of your ancestors will probably confess, "Well Willie and Martin just kept bugging me about when to go, so I just made up a fake itinerary. Then I went to the well, got a drink, and before I could tell him it was a fake, they were halfway to Martin's Cove!? How was I supposed to know they were serious? I certainly wasn't going after them! That would've been SUICIDE!"

--Ray

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Randy wrote:
I do have a problem with talks about how we should say "thee," "thou," and "thy" when we're praying.

They don't really bug me so much as they CONFUSE me. Because you are correct; those pronouns were originally used in English to denote those who are close to us, much as the "Tu" forms are currently used in certain Romance languages.

Now, they really are used as sort of "distance-making" words, or words reserved to show greater reverence for diety; which, in my mind goes against the whole "boldly approaching the throne of Grace" thing.

I use them, but I think it's kind of silly to do so.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I was going to say what Hoss said. And I use the formal pronouns out of habit. Some of the youth in our ward say more personal-sounding prayers, and they feel really nice to me. Like children talking with their father.