I've heard that and talked about it with DH, Coco. Our "professional" conclusion was that while sex is an expression of intimacy for women, it's a way to achieve it for men. But DH concedes that it's not the only way to achieve intimacy, just the easiest. I also recognize that it's important to him that I hug him, kiss him, touch him when I pass, etc. . . just that physical connection means a lot to him. I'm not a "huggy" person so it was hard for both of us early in our marriage. He expressed that need, I worked at it, and now it's more natural and I enjoy being that way.

But he doesn't turn to porn when I'm not doing it enough.

Jen and Coco, would you please consider rephrasing or replacing your posts above? Comments of this sort are not productive.

Similar comments in the past have caused a great deal of consternation and contention in other forums as the way those opinions often are presented end up trumping the seeking of understanding in a charitable fashion.

No one is putting blame on anyone else for anything. What has been presented, and perhaps may have some backing in clinical research, is that those individuals who are prone to problems with or addiction to porn may turn to it as a false substitute for the emotional and spiritual (and ergo physical) intimacy that was missing or strained in a relationship before the giving in to temptation occured (whether or not either or both partners in the marriage were aware of pre-existing strain in the relationship). That observation is not wrong, it is not right. It is just what it is, an observation that is indeed often useful in helping to not only help redeem the individual who has stumbled, but the relationship as well.

As moderator in this discussion area and thread, I ask that people continue to think objectively, openly, and with a great deal of kindness and respect on these sorts of sensitive but important topics... even if your opinion differs.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 13:13, 2007-10-15

Ahh... I see I am now added to the request.

If anything, Jen and I were trying to *stop* the blame being put on others, as respoding to Val's comment:

"This may irritate some, but I know of quite a number of men that have looked at porn because of lack of intimacy with their spouse. It can become a substitute for lack of a relationship at home. For men, sex equals love. The quickest way for a woman to tell her husband that she does not love her husband (from a man's point of view) is to not be intimate."

Then, Coco, I will be blunt. I have said it several times, doing evil is wrong, no matter what any other circumstances are. Yes, if a man is dilligent, he can be chaste, but it is a lot easier with the support of a caring wife.

I am like Jen's husband, I need that physical connection, whether sex to just a touch on the arm. I have none to almost none of that, period. Is there ever a temptation, you better believe it. A dozen years of emotional hell that have near destroyed me, almost cost me my job due to the heartbreak. My father in law, he has become so numb to the lack of affection from his wife that I hurt to see him. My sister in law's husband, my best friend, other priesthood holders at church, etc.

You can run from it, pretend that everything is okay when it's not, turn to porn, whatever. God has really begun bearing my burden for me because frankly, I was going down hill quick. I remember in the marriage class we took from the church how one man was literally shocked when his wife came up and hugged out of the blue. He said it had been over a year since that had happened. Sometimes you look for closeness and comfort where you can find it.

Coco, my high school counselor said, "Men use love to get sex and women use sex to get love." Not sure I agree, because it makes some character assumptions I feel. That's just the way I've heard it.

While we're talking about the why's of porn addiction, I have a few things to add into the mix. Porn addiction is so not about sex. There are a lot of excuses for turning to porn, but the addiction isn't about sex. A man's wife could do everything he wanted, everytime he wanted and he might still choose to turn to porn to escape life's stessors. You can't even ask a non-recovering addict why they do it. Addicts lie. They lie so often and even to themselves. In the throws of addiction most wouldn't know truth if it bit them on the bum. I understand non-addicts wanting to understand porn addiction, but here's what's important in my view.

1) Knowing that porn is highly addictive. (That means easy to get caught up in, easy to fall into and terribly hard to get out of.) That's your warning.

2) Knowing that the way to get recovery from porn (and other addictions) is the same no matter why you think you got into it. Twelve step programs work. The Church has their own 12-step program because they know this. They endorse this path. When you work it, it has been proven to work time and again. I wonder how many of you know that the twelve steps are a spiritual program. From my own knowledge, I know that the 12-step program was inspired by God.

People become addicts, porn or otherwise, because they can't deal with life on life's terms. Plain and simple. It is a spiritual disease. And there's no reading or praying our way out of it. We need a sponsor to point out our crap when we try to pass it off as truth. When we try to do it on our own we only lie ourselves further into the addiction and denial.

Did you know LDS people as a whole have a lower addiction recovery rate than other religions? Seriously. Ask someone who works in rehab. When I found that out, I was sad, but not surprised. As a culture, we often think we can "good works" our way out of anything. "God wants me to try harder." "If I read my scriptures more and pray harder, I'll quit wanting to look at porn." If this was true the Church wouldn't have a porn problem or any other addiction problem. Addiction means we CANNOT control our behavior on our own. CANNOT. Not that we're not trying hard enough.

"But, but, Heavenly Father wants us to do good things and try hard!" Addicts stay sick thinking like that. Yes, there is a place for works. But by the end of my life, will I look back and think that all I've done has been enough to earn me a seat in the Celestial Kingdom? Never. Never could I do enough. And it's not just that Jesus died for my sins, so I could have chances to get myself all perfect. I cannot change myself. All the positive change that has occurred in my life has been a result of Heavenly Father changing me. I could no more change my nature, my heart than I could sit here and will my eyes to change color.

There has been a lot said on this thread that I seriously disagree with. I don't feel the need to argue it out, though. I think, I hope, what I've said stands for itself.

Maybe you're feeling aggression or defensiveness from me, but I'm not feeling it myself.

What I don't think is "productive" is to be under the delusion that we, i.e. the people in the life of the person with the problem, can somehow change him if we change our own behavior. The change does not come from "outside" does it? If only my circumstances were different, I'd be better...

Cat, there are not just people with the problem looking at the thread, there are also those who may be dealing with it in others. I think some understanding is warranted there also, so they don't feel like they are to blame. That's a heavy burden, too.

hic- I really liked your comments. I tend to tell myself this with my own problems.

Hic, so is it possible for people to break an addiction if they don't believe in Christ? You seem to be claiming that's not possible.

--Ray

I'm not talking about blaming a wife for her husband's porn addiction. I'm talking about listening to more than one person talk about the problem. I'm not a counselor, so I never will have anyone come tell me their problems, but letting people talk things out can be helpful. Often they can talk themselves into doing what they ought to do. Listening to someone doesn't mean letting them blame someone else for their sins.  But it is useful to know where someone is coming from, even if it's from the wrong direction.

-- Edited by Janey at 19:49, 2007-10-15

-- Edited by Janey at 20:00, 2007-10-15

I foresee a time when science will figure a way to alter the brain in a way to undo addiction. It will be both a great blessing and a curse, in that we will lose one more reason to call upon God for help. At least from the tough uphill nature of the challenge--it simply won't be like that...

--Ray

Exactly. There's a hospital that advertises all the time on the radio around here, about breaking alcohol addiction. Pretty soon, you'll be able to get a tummy tuck, hair implants, get a colonoscopy and have addiction treatment all in one stop.

--Ray

How can one study the scriptures and not at least be more motivated to repent? And the repentance process is God's 12 step program... so I guess none of us really disagree, do we?

I think we're all pretty much on the same sheet of music.  I'll just add that addicts tend to think, "I don't need to tell anyone. I don't need somebody else involved in this. I can work this out just between me and God." It's a lie. He isn't really interested in repentance or recovery. He's still attempting to cover his sins and gratify his pride.  Confession is essential to repentance and recovery.