Why I Closed...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Why I Closed...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Closed...

arbilad · Head Chef

The entire situation was unpleasant. But I have learned that if you don't stand up to bullying, it will continue. I don't want this to be a forum where there is a popular elite that can break the rules. Therefore I called Cat on his breaking of the rules. It is unfortunate that it has resulted in a fight, but he needed to be called on it.
Nevertheless, I will bow out of the discussion at this point. Either Cat will acknowledge his error or he won't. I don't think that there is anything I can say at this point that will change it either way.
BTW, Cat, this wasn't a situation for arbitration. As I have understood it, the arbitration process is for when two people have a personal dispute and want a moderator to adjudicate it for them. This was a different situation. I could care less if you think I'm an insensitive moron. I care deeply about you using that sort of language on the forum. This was a simple case of rule breaking. If I had not participated in that discussion, I would simply have edited your comments out. As it was, I didn't want any accusations of abuse of power.
To sum up; this wasn't a dispute between two people. You broke the rules, and I wasn't in a position to moderate you, so I simply called you on it.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat... I tell my teens... "name calling is NEVER good, Arbi," I tell my teens "public correction of a friend is NEVER a good thing..." All both of you needed to do was to stop for a minute... have a prayer and then say... "I am sorry..." at THAT point.... IF you felt the need explain why you posted what you did, I would have stayed out of the discussion. From the SS lesson I taught my 17 yo class today:

Elder Marvin J. Ashton taught: 'When others disagree with our stand we should not argue, retaliate in kind, or contend with them. Ours is to explain our position through reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts. Ours is to stand firm and unyielding on the moral issues of the day and the eternal principles of the gospel, but to contend with no man or organization. Contention builds walls and puts up barriers. Love opens doors. Contention never was and never will be an ally of progress' (in Conference Report, Apr. 1978, 10; or Ensign, May 1978, 78).
The communications on both sides assumed a lot of ideas and attitudes not present to (or at least NOT visible to me) the moderator...

I went back and looked at several threads that each of you have defended in the past to see where to cut the line... I think you both crossed lines that you have called others on... That is MY take on it. I would be interested in hearing what other members of the forum think about this issue, in order to get a feel for how problems of this nature should be viewed in the future, because there is definite bias on both sides of your discussion.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Like I said, if you felt I had broken the rules and since you were not in a position to moderate, you should have called for an arbitration. I would classify someone getting upset at someone else because they said something they found offensive and then taking it upon oneself to call that person on it a personal dispute.

If there is an accusation that I am guilty of breaking one or more rules, the burden of proof lies with you to show it, and not just by you stating that I did (which presumeably is based on your personal interpretation of the purposely vaguely worded rules you put in place at the forming of this forum).

I'll now be taking some time off from here.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

If Cat broke the rules by calling people names, Arbi also broke the rules by taking Cat to task in the same thread where the original offense occurred, which completely derailed the thread. IIRC, the appropriate action would have been for Arbi to ask Cat privately to edit the offensive post, and if that failed, to post a request for moderation here in this forum, and then let Polly take action as she deemed appropriate. At least then the tiff would not have ruined the other thread.... however since Cat was apparently trying to facilitate his discussion to what he wanted it to be using ad hominem remarks, the thread seemed to already be derailed by the time the two started arguing over who had broken what rules when.

I think you did fine, Polly.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I think you did the right thing, too, Polly.

There sometimes comes a point where further discussion just becomes more and more heated. I think that was happening here and I'm glad it's been stopped.

I like it here and like it when we are pleasant to each other. I am just as capable (probably more so) as anyone else here of getting caught up in a heated discussion and I like knowing that if I crossed the line I would be moderated. (Even though, I wouldn't enjoy it in the moment.) I would be glad for the opportunity to calm down and not say things I would regret later.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

You were absolutely right to close the thread Polly. The situation got way out of hand. Some would say that I am biased. But, I agree that there was fault on both sides. Cat should not have used that word and Arbilad should have called him on it in private or called for arbitration. That's what the moderator is for.

For the record Arbilad, Cat did acknowledge his error and he did apologize and he deleted the offensive word from his posts before Polly closed the thread. So I think both sides just need to let it go. Otherwise, it will just cause more ill-will.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 04:38, 2007-09-17

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 06:47, 2007-09-17

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I completely agree with the "letting it go" part Poncho... I do not want to see this become a major stumbling block for any of us.

In my own life (even when I have felt that I was wronged...) I have found that sometimes many fervent prayers are needed for me to gain a softer heart... That change of heart has given me the ability and VERY often the personal strength I needed to move beyond hurt and/or anger and forgive/forget.

I tell my kids, we have to learn to love, respect and accept all those that will be returning to Father, or WE won't be welcomed there... It's part of a Celestial heart. I don't claim to have the ability to judge all the feelings or motivations in this situation... I would just ask everyone that has feelings about what happened to pray for a softer heart and the ability to accept the "peace that passeth understanding". (Philippians 4:7)

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I think we're all a bunch of Morons! Let's go to the new Saloon and celebrate how Moronic we can be at times! Morons of the world unite!

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Jase dear... get your spell check fixed... That's MORMON... you are missing an M...

:SLAPPED UPSIDE THE HEAD:

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Sorry Polly, spelling wuz never one of my strong suits.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Cat. If I made you feel bad, I'm sorry. Arbi, if I called you a nutter conspiracy third party weirdo, I'm sorry about that too. And Jase... well... if I ever apologize to you, it'll be because I was woefully lacking the ability to insult you in the way you deserve. And Polly, well... I'm sorry that you had to come to earth and endure all us fallen human types...

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Poor Polly. She was the only one in the right line in the pre-existence. The rest of us just got lost and she's had to suffer ever since she joined this forum.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

~boink~ Thumps rayb on the head and turns him into a rabbit... Hey, it's "Little Bunny FROO FROO"! It's a good thing I love all you other humans... rayb let me know if the burden of being non-human becomes too much!

Eternally yours, the "High Priestess" Polly
(wanders over to the Salon to have a pedicure...)

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

So, Arbi and Cat Death Match? I'd buy tickets....

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Gotta happen in a cage with loin cloths. Maybe something like Thunderdome with the weapons and such. I'd watch that!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

rayb wrote:

And Polly, well... I'm sorry that you had to come to earth and endure all us fallen human types...

--Ray

HUH??? Better than the alternative! Sheesh. rolleyes

(And I apologize to ray for the eyeroller, if that offends him.)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm offended you think that would offend me... cuz it don't... only now it does cuz you thought it would... cuz it wouldn't, though... now... bleh

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Are you throwing up at me?!?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 12:14, 2007-09-18

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Now that's a fight I'd buy tickets for. A fight between Coco and Ray.

I think Coco would kick Ray's butt!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Thank you very much.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Of course I'd LET her kick my butt...

--Ray

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Of course you'd say that was what would happen. Now you don't even have to try.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Ray, be sure to bring your Minstrels to sing of your bravery!

arbilad · Head Chef

While you guys are more fun than a barrel of monkeys. I have to give you warning that I'll start mercilessly deleting posts soon unless you stay on topic.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Ok, in the future, I would like to be moderated BEFORE I get out of line. Any of the mods psychic? (Just so I know which forum to hang out in

)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I think the umbrella topic here is being offended, right? So I'm saying ray is offensive, because he pretends he's tougher then me.

GRR!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

While you guys are more fun than a barrel of monkeys. I have to give you warning that I'll start mercilessly deleting posts soon unless you stay on topic.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for that decision and any subsequent implementing thereof be deferred to Polly since you are one of the individuals involved in the reason this thread was started? Just curious...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Actually Arbi's right about deleting posts in this thread. It's been a rule for a long time that we're not supposed to carry on off-topic discussions in this forum. I've had many a post deleted from this forum, as a result.

I support Arbi in the deletion of posts that are off topic in this forum... (especially Coco's...

)

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:

Actually Arbi's right about deleting posts in this thread. It's been a rule for a long time that we're not supposed to carry on off-topic discussions in this forum.

But who decides what is off-topic in this thread, and where the cut off point is? The moderator who performed a function reported it here then opened the thread up for input and discussion from others, or one of the individuals involved in the catalyst for the thread in the first place?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think Satan decides who is offtopic...

arbilad · Head Chef

Why should it matter? If I was going to abuse my power, I would have started long before this thread even opened. I would have started with the thread that was closed. The posts here that are off-topic are obviously off-topic. For instance, I wouldn't delete your questioning of my announcement that I will moderate off topic posts, because that is a legitimate question of moderation. I probably will be deleting things like minstrels singing of bravery.
If I was going to simply start ruthlessly deleting posts that I felt challenged me in one way or the other, don't you think I would have started before now? In fact, I'm hesitant to delete the off topic posts even now, unless they continue. No harm has been done. I just want the Moderations area to be hyper focused only on issues of moderation. Otherwise serious questions will be drowned out in the noise.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I believe that we are done with this topic...

Arbi could you please move all silliness posts to one thread called "WHY should "I" be offended???--yuk yuk" (I just started it)... That way those that want to carry on with the silliness can continue to be more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

NOT THE POOR INNOCENT MINSTRELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I must warn you they are all part of a uniquly oppressed minority group. They are Gay Eskimos. There are very few Gay Eskimos and moderating them could bring charges of homoracism which means you won't let them race their monkey driven cars anymore. This will lead to marches and protests by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. Is that really what we want to do people?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Bring it on.

In the words of Johnny Cochran, "If it doesn't fit, you must aquit!"

To me, that means offtopic is, in the words of Martha Stewart, "A good thing."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Arbilad, sorry if my comments (here and in the closed thread) were seen as snippy. I've got other things that have a bit higher priority than making sure no ripples are made by everything I say. As Poncho sits reading this over my shoulder and questions "Isn't that a little snippy too?", I have to ask in all seriousness... where is the freedom to express one's self if it is wrong to say what I feel just to avoid getting others upset?

Somewhere, there needs to be as equal, if not greater, responsibility assumed on the receiving end of any comment to not take offense as is directed to not give offense.

That is all I was asking you do when I asked that you drop the issue in the other thread. No one else seemed to have taken offense. I feel your response could have been handled more considerately. I have never felt I was above the rules, or have you forgotten I am the one who continually asks that the rules be fleshed out to be more specific? I am not comfortable with your inference I am part of some popular elite or bully, because I am not above anyone else, and I certainly am not worthy of those negative connotations simply because I am one of the more prolific posters in the forum.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I can't believe I'm going to post something on topic in here at this point, but here goes.

I have to ask in all seriousness... where is the freedom to express one's self if it is wrong to say what I feel just to avoid getting others upset?

The freedom to express one's self here at Bountiful is tempered by the rules. Because someone's right to say EXACTLY what they want even in anger is less important than keeping a civil tone to one's brothers and sisters here.

From the rules of the forum:
5. Your opinion may be better than someone else's, but that does not give you license to use personal attacks, harsh language, or to give the impression that if only they were as intelligent as you, they would agree with you.
Now I want to address "No one else seemed to have taken offense." I was very bothered by the situation and none of the comments were even directed at me. However, I chose to not say anything in the heat of the moment because I did not want to add to the conflict. And moderation did step in and handle things, so I didn't need to. I would suspect that I was not the only one who kept out of it for that reason or even others.

And on a final personal note, I am upset by apologies where the apologizer goes on to defend what they did as somehow being within their rights or that it wasn't really wrong. I don't feel that's an apology. I read it as further arguing the point and being defensive. My concern as it relates to Bountiful is that I haven't seen on apology from you, Cat, that admits wrong in the name calling and agrees to not do it anymore. And I really want to be able to feel safe from personal attacks and like I'm respected when I come here.

Ros · Senior Member

Um...you can't insist on an apology and insist it be sincere. That very act negates any sincerity on the part of the one apologizing.

This has been quite entertaining for me to catch up on...but your all going to have to get over it.

Ros · Senior Member

Also...can you really be subject to a personal attack from someone with an alias you have never met?

I mean...really....?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I'm not insisting on an apology. I'm not. I just said my issue is that I am concerned by what I've seen.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Poncho29 wrote:

For the record Arbilad, Cat did acknowledge his error and he did apologize and he deleted the offensive word from his posts before Polly closed the thread. So I think both sides just need to let it go. Otherwise, it will just cause more ill-will.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 04:38, 2007-09-17

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 06:47, 2007-09-17

Actually Cat did apologize, on the closed thread and 2 hours ago. Frankly I'm tired of the whole thing. It's worn me weary. FWIW, I think it's worn Cat and everyone else weary too. There are just some things in our lives that deserve my attention more than this.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 09:15, 2007-09-19

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Ros wrote:

Um...you can't insist on an apology and insist it be sincere. That very act negates any sincerity on the part of the one apologizing.

This has been quite entertaining for me to catch up on...but your all going to have to get over it.

I am HIGHLY offended, and yes slightly shocked and appalled at the use of "your" when you mean "you're."

Now, APOLOGIZE. And you dang well better mean it. biggrin

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat and Arbi... I see both side of your disagreement. There were attempts by me to moderate the closed thread, in the only way I am truly comfortable moderating in this venue (teasing). Perhaps my perception is wrong but it appeared to me that you both wanted control... And I was hoping you would both take a step back...

Again this is just MY perception, but it appears that Cat wanted to control what other people said in the thread because that topic was important to him.

First Cat, control of off topic comments in any thread is very difficult... as you said: who decides what is off topic...? EVERYONE responds differently to EVERY issue out there, because we all come from a different life experience... So who is to say what IS the wrong way to feel about a certin political/current event issue?

Second, using name calling to get attention is not only unkind in general it is unlike you specifically... I personally did not have an issue with the particular word you used... because in my view it's just an expression of frustration... (albeit somewhat immature,) but for some it may be very hurtful, so you were kind of asking for SOMEONE to take offense, which again is unlike you... BTW, using your personal challenges as a reason is neither here nor there. No one could possibly know when you are having a difficult time of it... That makes about as much sense as my lashing out at those that are healthy and then blaming it on my pain levels. In my view that would be completely unfair.

From MY perception Arbi, it appeared you to wanted to control how the moderating was conducted. That didn't really bother me, but you could have said something about that if that is how you felt, and you wanted me to step in... My style is to give everyone lots of room for expression, and to remind everyone to be nice about it... It wasn't until you both started arguing about the rules in the thread I had to remove the temptation, because you were were both displaying attributes that you have called others on in the past. Again I will mention that control of comments is very difficult... (INCLUDING those against the church, but we all agree that anti-Mormon comments will not be tolerated here...)

Arbi, you said: no one is above the rules, no matter what their motivation is. It matters not one iota what that motivation is. In your view someone broke the rules, and you felt they acted in an un-Christlike manner, and were unrepentant about it. At that point it WAS an issue for arbitration, but you chose to do that arbitrating yourself instead of asking for someone to step in.

Second, I already stated why I think this is a tempest in a teapot. From the other comments from forum members it appears that there is not really anyone else in this forum that thought the thread was ruined or were offended. (edit... hiccups had a concern, but only just posted... so please take that comment with a GRAIN OF SALT...) I certainly didn't agree with either stand. I believe at this point the ONLY thing being accomplished by continuing this moderation thread is to continue your argument. So again I would like to ask for this to be taken to either a private communication, or ask someone "else" to arbitrate. I believe you are both wrong and both need to apologize and then stop trying to be "the only one that is right" and let it go.

Let's move on already. If you are not ready to do that, then find a way to work it out... but currently neither of you have actually accepted that the other person has even a small level of valid reasoning for their comments/feeling and you are just rehashing your personal hurts with different words.

-- Edited by PollyAnna at 09:40, 2007-09-19

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ros wrote:
Also...can you really be subject to a personal attack from someone with an alias you have never met?

I mean...really....?

I am with ya' here Ros... I have been a little dumbfounded through this process...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hoss Cartwright wrote:
Now, APOLOGIZE. And you dang well better mean it.

SORRY!!!

Feel better now, Hoss???

Come one guys... Let's just leave it for a few days and let hearts heal...

Poncho... "weary" doesn't EVEN approach my feeling.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hiccups, you are entitled to your opinion.

I don't feel posting it to this thread is particularly productive though, since none of my posts in either thread were directed at you. We are trying to come to a resolution between Arbilad and myself, so your comment above can be seen as a little incendiary. I would really like to feel free to state my case and opinions without others automatically assuming I am engaging in rule breaking or ad hominem.

The original comment that is considered to be the infraction was directed to 5 other gentlemen, of which only 1 has stated unequivocably that they felt I was out of line for saying it. After that, it was limited to a disagreement between that one individual and myself.

If you haven't done so or done so recently, please read up on the moderation and dispute resolution process thread and what the discussions in here are for.

Polly, since you are supposed to be moderating this discussion, could you set down the rules for this discussion before this devolves further into a "Rant on Cat" session? I would rather not do so, but if it is has to come to it, I'll request a formal arbitration for everything from the response in the 9-11 thread to hiccups rant against me above.

arbilad · Head Chef

PollyAnna wrote:

I believe that we are done with this topic...

Arbi could you please move all silliness posts to one thread called "WHY should "I" be offended???--yuk yuk" (I just started it)... That way those that want to carry on with the silliness can continue to be more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

Sorry to take so long to respond, Polly, but I haven't been able to spend much time here the last couple of days. When you say that we are done with this topic, do you mean the topic of moderating out hilarity out of this thread, or do you mean that we are done discussing the original topic of this thread? Is there a specific action that you would like me to take?

I cannot move individual posts from one thread to another. There is absolutely no way to do it with the Activeboard software.

arbilad · Head Chef

If you haven't done so or done so recently, please read up on the moderation and dispute resolution process thread and what the discussions in here are for.

Cat, I believe that we had discussed this before, and there is absolutely no rule precluding anyone's participation in a moderation discussion, an arbitration, or any official action of this board. If you would like a change of that rule, start a thread in the General Discussions area. If there is enough interest in changing the rule, come up with wording, and then we'll ask people their opinions on the wording. If it works, I'll change the rule.