The thread that was originally to be about 9/11 reflections but got derailed into something else

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The thread that was originally to be about 9/11 reflections but got derailed into something else

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

RE: 9/11 reflections

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Perfect... No wonder I feel so bad...

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

We had a rough night at work last night. It was busy and everything was a problem, the phone kept ringing off the hook. Then towards the end of the night the pharmacist realized the date and said, "Maybe that's why everything is nuts."

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Of course here in Seattle, we pride ourselves on asking tough questions...

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/davidpostman/archives/2007/09/szwaja_asks_students_if_us_planned_911_attacks.html

And to think he's running for school council... Only in Seattle...

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The conspiracy theorists are nuttier and nuttier all the time. Can you imagine what would happen to this teacher if he taught this class but substituted Holocaust for 9-11 in his course description?

arbilad · Head Chef

Which is nuttier, to ask insane questions or to accept uncritically what you're told?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

So Pearl Harbor must be an inside job too. It would be nutty of me not to ask the insane question wouldn't it?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Guys... let's not go down that route.

I think what is interesting is not that questions can't be asked, but that in the sense that the questions being asked, they are automatically assigned to being "critical thinking" and are therefore somehow reflecting a better, higher, superior, more informed viewpoint than common sense and the evidence at hand.

There is a time and place for out of the box, innovative thinking. But, too often, I think many people fall trap to doing so at times, places, and concerning things that do not warrant it. And intellectuals, generally and stereotypically speaking, tend to promote doing this. There is rarely a month or week that goes by when there isn't some news story that gets reported telling of how an intellectual has been shown to be manipulating things to suit an agenda. And people listen to these "wise men" without often employing the skills of critical thinking they claim to be promoting...

arbilad · Head Chef

But questioning is warranted in a case where the public story does not match the facts. The official line on 9/11 is laughable. For instance, the official line (and yes, it is the official line; I read it in a 9/11 conspiracy theory refutation) that the buildings fell within their own footprint because they are effectively hollow. That's ignoring basic principles of building construction. Hollow or not, a building does not fall within its own footprint if struck from the side. Build a few models at home and try it for yourself.
Another major problem with the official story is that the steel columns would not have melted that fast. It is a basic principle of physics - heat does not transfer instantly. Besides the fact that a steel column is normally rated higher than the temperature that jet fuel can reach. Even if these specific columns weren't, the jet fuel burned off very quickly. There wouldn't have been enough heat transfer to even significantly weaken them, much less melt them.
So, there are major problems with the official story. Why not look at it critically? The evidence at hand doesn't support the official story.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Sometimes our tendency to trust no one is a good thing... it can keep us personally safe, but where it protects no one, sometimes it leads to a great deal of mental mischief. Whatever the case, I think it's innappropriate to sew the seeds of discord and discontent on solemn anniversaries, they only destroy our ability to love our neighbor and spread fatalism, victimization, and the feeling of futility to a world that's already cynical enough.

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Popular Mechanics did an analysis and their conclusion was basically that it did happen like they say it happened. http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Like I said guys... let's not go down that route.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Your right Cat. Popular Mechanics is a tool of Carl Rove, George Bush, John Bolton, his tallented yet sappy brother Michael Bolton, Semir, and the guy with the stapler fettish. As Johnny Abdul once sang, EIIIHIOOHIOLMAXKCAMA!

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
Like I said guys... let's not go down that route.

And just WHO named you PollyAnna today...??? (as in no moderation allowed by YOU!!!)

I would just add... as long as you keep it nice guys... proceed... evileye

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Jason, I'm surprised you didn't post that in the Saloon. Ray could get up and sing a duet with this guy.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Occam's Razor, Arbi.

Is it easier to believe that the planes were the cause of the collapse, or to believe that there was some more complicated conspiracy at work?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Just for the record, I was convinced years ago that Pearl Harbor was an "inside job". One look at the photos of the destruction of the Murrah building in OKC and I saw clear signs of an inside job. And when the trade towers came down, I was convinced that was an inside job as well.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Don't forget that the moon landing was faked also. It was all shot on a Hollywood sound stage.

Also, the Freemasons and the Illuminati are really running world affairs. One need look no further than the Denver Airport. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/5692/

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, the burning of Rome was really caused by rioting christians, right?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Don't forget the Grassy Knoll and the Roswell cover up!

arbilad · Head Chef

fear of shiz wrote:

Occam's Razor, Arbi.

Is it easier to believe that the planes were the cause of the collapse, or to believe that there was some more complicated conspiracy at work?

Actually, Shiz, the alternate conspiracy theories are no more complicated than the government's conspiracy theory, which is that 19 terrorists conspired to bring down the world trade towers and another target (I'm not sure whether they ever decided that the pentagon was the terrorist's original target or not).

So this issue is not one of complexity. The issue is whether it is more reasonable to believe that the planes were the primary cause of the towers coming down, or whether it was something else.

Few people dispute that planes hit the towers. What you are suggesting is that the simple and obvious explanation is the correct one. What I am saying is that it is not simple and obvious that the planes brought the towers down. For one thing, they were built to withstand such a collision. For another, they've had to come up with weird, convoluted theories why the jet fuel was sufficient to not only weaken the steel supports but travel all the way down the elevator shafts and destroy the lobby. They've had to come up with these complicated theories to explain why it really was the planes, when the simple and obvious explanation is that the planes were insufficient to bring down the towers.

So, Shiz, according to Occam's Razor, which is more likely? A weird set of circumstances in two separate towers that would have required ideal conditions and is questionable even given those conditions, or a controlled demolition which easily explains all the obervable facts?

arbilad · Head Chef

salesortonscom wrote:

Popular Mechanics did an analysis and their conclusion was basically that it did happen like they say it happened. http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

I've read the popular mechanics report and find their reasoning very faulty. Progressive damage from fire and physical damage brought down tower 7 in a manner exactly like a controlled explosion? It is as likely that chance delivered a result identical to a controlled demolition as it is to say that lightning hit the beach and created a swiss watch already set to the correct time.

So, I can say that I read the popular mechanics article. Have you read anything from the other side? Here's an article from a physics professor. It's a pdf file, but it should probably open in your browser.

So anyway, when you've read that, then we'll discuss the particulars about what seems more likely and what doesn't. I feel that discussions are much more productive when both sides understand the other position. I even listen to Air America sometimes to see what the liberals are thinking.

arbilad · Head Chef

salesortonscom wrote:

Don't forget the Grassy Knoll and the Roswell cover up!

I'm not sure of the purpose served by this post. Are you saying that all conspiracy theories are false? That would be obviously untrue, as history is replete with example of conspiracies, both successful or not.

There are other possibilities. You may just be quoting conspiracies that you feel are commonly accepted amongst those who also believe in 9/11 conspiracies. But, at least as far as the Roswell example, that would be far from the case. I know many people who disbelieve the official government story about 9/11, and not many of them also believe that the government is hiding something related to aliens at Roswell. So it is not true that, if you believe 9/11 theories, that you also automatically accept such nutty theories as a faked moon landing or an alien coverup.

Another possibility is that you are merely naming several conspiracy theories that you personally consider unlikely. But in the case of the JFK assasination, that surprises me. You are an afficianado of firearms. You know how they operate. And yet, if it is true that you consider alternate explanations of the JFK assasination absurd, then you also accept the official government report that not only did one of the bullets change directions midair and reenter the body, but that one man was able to fire a large number of accurate shots in a very short period of time with a bolt action rifle.

So, I'm at a loss. But I won't belabor the point.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

I guess very few here are aware that a Prophet told us in a 1988 Church General Conference that "Secret combinations, lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence over America and the entire world."

Moroni warned the people of our day about secret combinations, and that we should not let them get "above us".

I should be apparent then, that we are faced with a danger of a secret combination that threatens our freedom. Some are more aware of it than others, probably due in large part to their prior experiences and observations. Ezra Taft Benson and Moroni were both in pretty good positions to witness the doings of the secret combination they warned us about. But neither positively identified or named any of the participants of this organization, nor spelled out exactly how they would operate. I can only assume that for good reason they left that for us to figure out. For us to ignore it is to ignore the warnings and admonitions we have been given.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Helaman 16:
15 Nevertheless, the people began to harden their hearts, all save it were the most believing part of them, both of the Nephites and also of the Lamanites, and began to depend upon their own strength and upon their own wisdom, saying:

16 Some things they may have guessed right, among so many; but behold, we know that all these great and marvelous works cannot come to pass, of which has been spoken.

17 And they began to reason and to contend among themselves, saying:

18 That it is not reasonable that such a being as a Christ shall come; if so, and he be the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, as it has been spoken, why will he not show himself unto us as well as unto them who shall be at Jerusalem?

19 Yea, why will he not show himself in this land as well as in the land of Jerusalem?

20 But behold, we know that this is a wicked tradition, which has been handed down unto us by our fathers, to cause us that we should believe in some great and marvelous thing which should come to pass, but not among us, but in a land which is far distant, a land which we know not; therefore they can keep us in ignorance, for we cannot witness with our own eyes that they are true.

21 And they will, by the cunning and the mysterious arts of the evil one, work some great mystery which we cannot understand, which will keep us down to be servants to their words, and also servants unto them, for we depend upon them to teach us the word; and thus will they keep us in ignorance if we will yield ourselves unto them, all the days of our lives.

22 And many more things did the people imagine up in their hearts, which were foolish and vain; and they were much disturbed, for Satan did stir them up to do iniquity continually; yea, he did go about spreading rumors and contentions upon all the face of the land, that he might harden the hearts of the people against that which was good and against that which should come.

23 And notwithstanding the signs and the wonders which were wrought among the people of the Lord, and the many miracles which they did, Satan did get great hold upon the hearts of the people upon all the face of the land.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The problem with these conspiracy theories is that there is always someone out there you can find to "scientifically support" the out there theory. So I look at both sets of "scientific" arguments and then have to ask myself some questions.

1. What purpose does the conspiracy achieve? In the case of 9-11 and the theory that our own government demolished the towers it is hard to understand what objective Bush and his cronies would have achieved. Downtown revitalization of New York? To start a war for oil profits? Neither one seems very likely and there are easier ways to get both done. Was it to improve poll numbers for Bush. Well that didn't work. Was it to erode civil liberties and give more power to the government. Maybe but since only one challenge to the Patriot act has ever been adjudicated it's hard to make a case that sort of abuse is taking place. So in the case of 9-11 I don't see any realistic achievement such a conspiracy would bring. Oh I know it was to enrich their friends at Haliburton. Come on!

2. Who in the mainstream supports the theory? When even the leaders of the other party aren't out screaming that 9-11 was an inside job then it is hard to believe such a thing. Bottom line is that if Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, Kennedy, Clinton, Obama, and their ilk honestly thought it was an inside job by Bush they would be screaming it from the rafters and there would be multiple hearings going on in congress to try and show that Bush ordered the bombings. These are the same folks that use the flimsiest science to promote a global warming agenda so it would not be out of their realm to glob onto the reports of the 9-11 inside job people. These pols may hint at such a conspiracy during some fundraising luncheon with anti-war Bush hating wack jobs but where are the hearings by the majority party? They aren't there. As much as they hate Bush you would think the majority party would be investigating like mad on this if they thought there was really something there.

3. Can they effect the cover up? We're talking about an administration here that had more leaks about war strategy than than a submarine with screen doors. There have been so many leaks that it is nearly impossible to concieve how they could have kept the details of the 9-11 conspiracy shut up. The planning and execution of the "controlled demolition" alone would have set someone's radar off. Loose lips. They just aren't there. It's almost always the cover up that gets these folks in the end. Yet the biggest scandal that's produced anything was the Scooter Libby deal where he was convicted of lying about something he didn't do anyway. Huh?

4. Who are some of the leading spokespeople for the 9-11 conspiracy? Charlie Sheen or John Stossel? Gosh that's a hard one. John Stossel the hard hitting muckraker or Charlie Sheen the former cocain and hooker poster boy. Those who subscribe to the theory say a lot about it.

5. The Fifth Estate: Even the main stream Bush hating media hasn't gotten on board the conspiracy train. Sure you might see an editorial from some Bush hater once in a while or a report of some sort of the latest theory or person's idea but they aren't banging the war drums for the 9-11 conspiracy? Why not? They hate Bush and would love to see him go down. They love the sensational and certainly this would sell newspapers. Many of their subscribers also hate Bush and would revel in a constant banging of the drum of 9-11 being an inside job. So what media to we have banging the drum, Michael Moore, some Hollywood types, and Bush hating editorial writers.

Those that want to believe these theories will find someone or something to back up their belief everytime. For every article or scientific treatise that claims to show it was an inside job there are five others picking them apart. I'm an equal opportunity unbeliever. I don't buy into those who think the Clintons were bumping off Vince Foster, Ron Brown, and others either. I don't believe the Jews, Freemasons, and some international secret group are running the world either. Why, I'm a Freemason and those guys are barely organized enough to plan a BBQ. I know some of you think I'm a naive, misguided robot who can't see the what they are seeing or I'm just not privy to their special insider intel or information.

Here's what I do know: We will experience another terrorist attack on U.S. soil sometime down the road. The Islamofacists in the middle east want us dead. The Iranians will build a nuclear weapon if left unchecked. The Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, Hugo Chavez, and the Castro Government don't care if America is a target for Islamofacists and will continue to support either directly or indirectly their actions against the U.S. Israel, the only real democracy in the middle east, will continue to be the scapegoat for every concievable problem in the region or world. Leaving Iraq will result in a chaotic mess and mass genocide in the region. The other stuff is just a distraction.

arbilad · Head Chef

Well, Jason, I had hoped to discuss the merits and failings of both documents with you. I am also disappointed that you paint all conspiracy theorists with one brush. For instance, I don't get too worked up about the freemasons.
If you care to read the document I linked to, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. Like I said, I keep an open mind. I examined and rejected the lunar landing fake conspiracy theories. I believe that we really did land on the moon. I don't think that there is a conspiracy to poison us on the part of the chinese. But there are active conspiracies in these last days, just as the Book of Mormon said there would be.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

You know Arbi, I'd probably believe you (okay, maybe that's a stretch), were it not for the fact that those peddling these theories are politically inconsistent and most often come from far left socialists who want to discredit the Bush Administration at any cost, the truth be damned...

And they're seeking for power and influence at any cost.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You guys are no better than the ilk I was talking about in the opening post, you know...

This is really disgusting. You can't even take a thread that was set up to think about the tragedy and death of the victims of 9/11 without hijacking it and turning it into an argument over conspiracy theories. I love you guys, but sometimes, you can be absolutely and totally insensitive. rolleyes

Edited last sentence to remove the wording that Arbilad found offensive.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 18:48, 2007-09-16

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

We watched the movie United 93 last night. I recommend it, if you can get over the R rating (for intensity). It made Casi cry and both of us recall the tense anxiety of that day. And it made me want to honor those brave heroes on that flight that chose to fight back. Beamer, Bingham, Burnett, Glick, Miller.... their names deserve to be remembered and their example is an inspiration.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2LeCXXIjo

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat Herder wrote:

You guys are no better than the ilk I was talking about in the opening post, you know...

This is really disgusting. You can't even take a thread that was set up to think about the tragedy and death of the victims of 9/11 without hijacking it and turning it into an argument over conspiracy theories. I love you guys, but sometimes, you can be absolute and total insensitive unthinking morons.

That was uncalled for and distinctly uncivil. If you were better than what you accuse us of, you might realize that the true story of 9/11 just adds to the tragedy of the victims, and is part of our grief. But because said conspiracy theories are unpopular, it seems that you feel that you can ignore the rules of civility and common politeness.

Besides, I pointedly didn't make any posts on this subject on 9/11 itself so as not to interfere with the commemoration.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

okay... I will NOT let anyone ruin my perfectly lovely day...!!!! This is the last call to do the big group hug/shake hands/make up thing or I'll have to ground you all... Sheesh!!! rolleyes

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

Cat Herder wrote:

You guys are no better than the ilk I was talking about in the opening post, you know...

This is really disgusting. You can't even take a thread that was set up to think about the tragedy and death of the victims of 9/11 without hijacking it and turning it into an argument over conspiracy theories. I love you guys, but sometimes, you can be absolute and total insensitive unthinking morons.

That was uncalled for and distinctly uncivil. If you were better than what you accuse us of, you might realize that the true story of 9/11 just adds to the tragedy of the victims, and is part of our grief. But because said conspiracy theories are unpopular, it seems that you feel that you can ignore the rules of civility and common politeness.
Besides, I pointedly didn't make any posts on this subject on 9/11 itself so as not to interfere with the commemoration.

Arbilad, if you want to be mad, fine be mad and call it uncalled for and distinctly uncivil, but waiting to make the posts until after 9-11 is really no different than if they had been made on 9-11. I was not directing at you alone. I was directing at all five of you.

I asked twice very civilly, since I started the thread, to leave talking about things that were not related to commemorating the victims of 9-11. My requests had absolutely nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with any person's or group's theories. My request had everything to do with honoring and respecting those who died, and you guys started sounding like a group of jealous relatives bickering over an estate at the cemetary before the deceased's grave has even been covered.

And that is how I feel. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I think of your or Jason's or Ray's or lundbaek's or shiz's political leanings or feelings. That is why I got so disgusted with the news article I linked to about the candidates and their bully pulpits and why I turned the TV off when the news commentator couldn't even let the Secretary of Defense give his speech live without having to interject his opinions.

If pointing out that what was being said was in my opinion insensitive and moronic is uncivil, than maybe you should put yourself in my shoes for a bit. I am sorry that it pressed buttons.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, is was simply wrong, no matter how you justify it. You broke the rules of the board. Nothing gives anyone on this board the right to call someone else a moron. There is always a better way to express yoru feelings than that. Refer to the "Tongue of Angels" post in the rules. For some reason, I can't imagine an angel of God showing up and calling someone a moron. They'll state harsh reality, like asking Alma the Younger why he is seeking to destroy the church of God even if he will destroy himself. But he didn't call him a moron.
Your post was inexcusable, no matter what feelings, impressions, goals, whatever you had. There is no call for that language in this forum ever.
Might I mention that you participated in the very behavior that you claim to hate. You had a post mocking conspiracy theories. That took away from your stated goal of honoring the deceased.
Hopefully we'll see an apology from you.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Alrighty, who took Cat's brain? I wanna know what conspiracy is afoot...

--Ray

PS. I remember being really sad when 9-11 happened. I think it's unfair of anyone to judge anyone with how they react to 9-11 now. Honestly, I think everyone approached it differently... there's no one single right way to react to it, Cat.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

arbilad wrote:

Cat, is was simply wrong, no matter how you justify it. You broke the rules of the board. Nothing gives anyone on this board the right to call someone else a moron. There is always a better way to express yoru feelings than that. Refer to the "Tongue of Angels" post in the rules. For some reason, I can't imagine an angel of God showing up and calling someone a moron. They'll state harsh reality, like asking Alma the Younger why he is seeking to destroy the church of God even if he will destroy himself. But he didn't call him a moron.
Your post was inexcusable, no matter what feelings, impressions, goals, whatever you had. There is no call for that language in this forum ever.
Might I mention that you participated in the very behavior that you claim to hate. You had a post mocking conspiracy theories. That took away from your stated goal of honoring the deceased.
Hopefully we'll see an apology from you.

I am sorry that you were offended by my calling you guys the word that offended you. That is as much apology as I can give for this, so you are welcome to it. It was not any conspiracy theories, it was the disrespect that the discussion was having towards the victims, living and dead, of the events of 9-11. You don't seem to understand what upset me, so lets just leave it.

edited out the word that offended Arbilad

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 18:48, 2007-09-16

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

The thread that was originally to be about 9/11 reflections but got derailed into something else

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, you are not above the rules, no matter what your motivation is. It matters not one iota what your motivation was. You broke the rules. You acted in an un-Christlike manner, and now you are unrepentant about it. That is truly regrettable. This sets a very bad example for everyone else. Now that Cat Herder got away with being rude just because he felt strongly, other people might feel that they can be rude because they felt strongly about something. That is not a direction that I want this forum to go.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Arbilad, please just let it go like I asked.

It is not fair to both demand someone give you an apology and then not be satisfied with the apology the individual provides under what he / she feels is akin to duress.

Who are you to judge whether I am repentant or not?

Did you perhaps fail to consider an apology to me may have been in order before starting to berate me here and point out the mote in my eye?

Did you perhaps forget that you are not following the forum rules and procedures by not taking your complaint to the proper place and request an arbitration over this dispute you seem intent on creating?

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Honestly I never thought I would be saying this... EVER... But this thread is officially CLOSED...