This is silly

palmon · Senior Member

This is silly

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I know it ain't what you wanted, but you at least got feedback from most of the people / places you submitted it to. I've never gotten feedback from any place I've ever submitted stuff to. I did get a thank you note back from the former U.S. Poet Laureate for a poem I wrote about him that I sent with a letter thanking him for sharing his talent, but I did not "submit" it to him for anything other than to share the moment captured in the poem.

If you and your husband feel that his work is ready for publication and would have a market, you may need to consider self-publication. Of course, that is going to cost you money (don't do the vanity press thing though) as you are the entity then taking the market risk. But, in the end, you will also reap all the reward instead of just a small % royalty. Beyond that, I really don't know much about the publishing or editing business other than it seems editors will always do what they are paid for and publishers do not necessarily publish the best stuff they see. Publishers are making business decisions about what is likely to provide the best ROI (return on investment) to them. They will go out of business pretty quick if they are only breaking even or not even making back the expense they incur.

The reasons I am not a published poet (yet): 1. I do not trust those I do not know to "edit" my poetry without trying to change what I am saying; 2. Poetry is not a hot publishing thing; 3. I know I have an audience, but have not figured out yet how to market my product effectively or to handle the self-publishing aspect; 4. I insist on maintaining all copyright and other rights to my work.

What one needs to remember is one has to step back from their written work and seperate themself from it. You are not that work. It is not an extension of you. Criticism of the work is not criticism of you.

arbilad · Head Chef

I honestly liked what I read, but then again, I'm not a publisher. That's the big question for me; how much does the opinion of folks there match the opinion of editors at the publishing houses? That is, if they say that something is a problem, then is it really going to cause a problem when submitting the manuscript? I got more positive feedback on this board, mostly, because I figure that no one here has trained in literary critique. They were just talking about what they liked and what they didn't. Whereas on the other board they have practiced in critiquing the written word. That's both good and bad.

palmon · Senior Member

"how much does the opinion of folks there match the opinion of editors at the publishing houses? That is, if they say that something is a problem, then is it really going to cause a problem when submitting the manuscript?" That's his thought also. The reason I went there is that we know there is a problem in the prologue. Ironically, some of the things that they did not like, a couple of the critiques of the publisher liked. I just didn't realize how personally he would take these comments. I thought he would be able to take out the good points, try them and if they worked, great. If not, nothing would be lost.

Our editor friend has encouraged a type of self-publishing. It is print on demand. He's had his share of the mass produced rejection.

I'm just frustrated and feeling guilty.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Does the story really need a prologue?

Poncho and I have enjoyed listening to the abridged version of Heimerdinger's Tennis Shoes series on road trips with the kids. The last book he put out, we bought the unabridged version thinking "Wow... good story telling could only get better with more, so let's get the unabridged version". I was really disappointed. So much extra deadwood in the unabridged version. It was not like LOTR or something like that. And while I enjoy Heimerdinger's story telling, I have to say I hate the whole concept of prologue and postlog in a book. Seems to be too artificial of a break for telling a story. If it is important, then just work the information in as part of the introductory stuff of the first chapter or the resolution in the last chapter. If you think of telling a story from an oral perspective, you don't have a prologue or postlog, you just tell the story, putting in narrative as needed as you go...

I am not entirely sold on the print on demand concept yet. Too close to vanity press from what I have seen, but with high tech to avoid the appearance of Kinko's. There is still nothing there as far as getting it into the market and sold. But who knows... maybe print on demand is what Ray's friend at Beanleaf is doing...

palmon · Senior Member

The story needs what is in it. Although no one in the book-proper knows what happened in the prologue (therefore it can't be told via flash-back), there is no story without it. My husband was shocked when I confessed to him that in a previous life, I never read prologues. So, it will become a chapter. The problems need to be resolved, even as a chapter.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I had an experience like yours...but from the other side. My mom wrote a 'book.' More like a novella, since it was a bit short, but... Anyway. She asked me to look at it and give her feedback. Silly me, I thought she meant it. I took the manuscript and looked at it as if she wanted to have it published and gave her feedback. It wasn't even all negative.

I've always been one who got annoyed when someone handed back my work with just a "It's good" comment. But I guess that's what she wanted. She took her manuscript and my notes and shoved the whole thing under the rug, so to speak. And I think her feelings were hurt. And I feel like I should have known better. But then I wonder if she'd submitted it and gotten rejected if it would have been worse.

palmon · Senior Member

That reminds me: my husband is always asked by kids to review their writing. I tell them not to ask him to do it unless they really want to have it critiqued - he does not hold anything back. So, it is funny that he is having such a reaction. Then again, he knows what he is doing and he is not so sure of the people who responded. It goes back to Ari's question: "how much does the opinion of folks there match the opinion of editors at the publishing houses?"

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Which is the reason MOST of my true writting happens privately, and I self-publish... I like what I write ... sometimes I share what I write but I couldn't care LESS who doesn't like it... and I RARELY change anything... IMO, public publishing is for people who care...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

palmon wrote:

That reminds me: my husband is always asked by kids to review their writing. I tell them not to ask him to do it unless they really want to have it critiqued - he does not hold anything back. So, it is funny that he is having such a reaction.

That is ironic indeed. When I ask people for their response on things I write, I really, really want honest feedback as well. I can be brutal in critiquing things others write (ask Poncho...) if they are weak. I expect the same in response. But, it usually doesn't come, so I don't know if I can really trust the response. Are people just trying to be nice, or do they really not know what they are doing? Why can't they point out the weakness of what I've written, cuz I don't consider myself to be a good writer (talented yes, but good... bah...)?

So, maybe your husband is kind of in that same family of thought, except that if he doesn't value what someone else says it means the other folks "just don't get it?" Is that a fair question? I guess I'm confused a little, does he disagree with what the editors / proofreaders have said, or what a virtual writer's group has said? What are the credentials of the virtual writer's group?

Polly, based on your comment, you would benefit from reading Ted Kooser's The Poetry Home Repair Manuel... He follows the mindset of we never really write just for ourselves, be it prose or poetry, and gives some pretty compelling, down to earth reasoning to support it.

palmon · Senior Member

" I guess I'm confused a little, does he disagree with what the editors / proofreaders have said, or what a virtual writer's group has said? What are the credentials of the virtual writer's group?"

The virtual writer's group. I don't think I have been quite fair to him. To read what I wrote makes him sound like he only wants positive feedback. He was more than willing to do the work that the editors and proofreaders wanted. But in the end, it still didn't sell.

As for the credentials of the virtual writer's group - as far as I could see, none. Maybe a couple went to Card's boot camp. So, is that a case of the 'blind leading the blind'?

He's just frustrated - too many voices. Our friend warned us of that. You can't please everyone and what some are going to love, others will hate. But it still comes down to that if readers can't get through the first pages, they usually aren't going to read the following 300 pages. Families and friends aside. Somtimes (in my opinion) those that hate you may be willing to tell you the truth that friends won't.

arbilad · Head Chef

The short version of Print on Demand is that it's a mixed bag. In all likelihood, none but local non-chain stores will ever carry a print on demand book, so all sales would come through the internet. People tend to look down on print on demand books because they're typically badly written and badly edited. Most print on demand titles experience little success because the authors put little effort into promoting them.
Here's an article on the pitfalls of print on demand:

http://www.sfwa.org/beware/printondemand.html

You can, of course, take a middle ground. You can submit your manuscript to www.greatauthorsonline.com. They're a publisher in that they will pay all the expenses of getting your book published, and you get a royalty. But they use print on demand to print copies of their books. They're a legitimate place - they even have a well known author, Leo Frankowski. You're not likely to experience great success, but they will give you a chance.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

How about we start a Bountiful publishing co-op?

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

EWWWW, not a "co-op"!?!?!?!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

How 'bout a Bountiful MLM publishing interest then?

We won't even refer to it as what it really is, let alone as "the business"... it will be referred to as "the none of yer business"...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Now THAT one... I LIKE!!!

-- Edited by PollyAnna at 13:57, 2007-08-31