Are Kids today educated?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Are Kids today educated?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

History and how our government works. Seems like the majority of young adults have no clue.

arbilad · Head Chef

What Jason said, plus reading skills. Most kids nowadays can only read with difficulty. Math is important too.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Haven't there been studies to indicate that children in our country don't have nearly the math and science skills that children in some other countries do?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So is there a topic that children are OVERLY educated in? Cuz this appears to pretty much cover most topics taught in school!? :)

--Ray

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Sexual innuendo or worse?

ETA: And before anyone cries foul, that was taught in my schools.

-- Edited by hiccups at 13:54, 2007-08-21

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

So is there a topic that children are OVERLY educated in? Cuz this appears to pretty much cover most topics taught in school!? :)

--Ray

Art, music, self esteem, all sorts of useless things. biggrin

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

hiccups wrote:

Sexual innuendo or worse?

ETA: And before anyone cries foul, that was taught in my schools.

-- Edited by hiccups at 13:54, 2007-08-21

What, fouls or sexual innuendo?

Imagining hiccups' high school at class registration time... 'Hmm, let's see, I've got some free time in my schedule for an elective right after lunch. What is available fifth period? AP Fouling or Sexual Innuendo IV. They are both so popular. But if I take AP Fouling, what if I don't get the teacher I want for Sexual Innuendo IV by waiting to take it next year as a senior.'

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Yes, Cat, it's all fun and games until 4th graders are being propositioned for sex.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Latin and Greek.

What? I'm serious....

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray: It depends on what you mean by education.

Jason: While the core academic subjects are necessary to function in society, music, art, and theater make life worth living. It would be a very drab world indeed without art. Also, educational research strongly supports the theory that children who have a negative attitude about themselves as learners (self-esteem in your words) don't achieve well at all. Investing in a child's positive concept of him/herself is an investment that pays off exponentially in academic achievement.

Hic et al: The sexual innuendo of which you speak is taught by society, not by formal education.

Poncho: The tests used to provide national rankings are tests that measure knowledge and comprehension--essentially the recall of facts and their contexts. Other countries excel because their educational model emphasizes memory and recall. The tests don't measure higher-order thinking skills such as application, analysis, evaluation, and creativity. America excels in those areas because our educational model emphasizes critical thinking and creativity. That model pays off in higher education--we have the best universities in the world. And despite what one's personal college experience or observations may be, studies show that American students are much better prepared than their international peers for the critical thinking and creative problem solving skills required in college. That's the payoff of our public education model.

Shiz: I would love to see Latin and Greek, indeed a comprehensive civics curriculum, offered in our schools.

-- Edited by Roper at 19:46, 2007-08-21

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Roper wrote:

Hic et al: The sexual innuendo of which you speak is taught by society, not by formal education.

And when society is your 6th grade teacher? Or your bus driver?

I understand what you're saying, Roper, but how are children to distinguish society from their education when the environment in which they receive said education is overrun with sexual innuendo? In my memories, the education I received was full of innuendo and not just from the other students.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Sorry I tried to make a joke there hiccups... didn't realize that was a hot button with you. But how you said what you said was really funny from my point of view.

Poncho and I graduated in the mid '80's out in "the mission field" where we were in the super-minority as far as religious belief and morals. Children learn to distinguish right and wrong by listening to their parents, listening to their teachers and advisors at church, and most importantly by listening to the Spirit. As bad as things get out there, you still have to have faith in the kids' ability to have the Spirit with them.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

hiccups wrote:
And when society is your 6th grade teacher? Or your bus driver?

Not anymore. They're prosecuted for sexual harassment. Zero tolerance in the district where I teach. I can't even tell my Kindergarten students to sit on their bottoms. It's "sit on your pockets" or "criss-cross applesauce."

In today's society, we can't expect our children to remain innocent. But, as Cat said, we can teach them to be valiant.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I am glad to hear it. Although, I do wonder if it's actually like that everywhere. (Just call me cynical.)

You know, Roper, if I ever won the lottery I don't play, I'd offer you an outrageous salary to be my children's teacher. I totally respect the effort you put forth.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"Also, educational research strongly supports the theory that children who have a negative attitude about themselves as learners (self-esteem in your words) don't achieve well at all. Investing in a child's positive concept of him/herself is an investment that pays off exponentially in academic achievement."

See, my problem with this is that the "attitude about themselves as learners" is often built on a sandy foundation, imo. It doesn't matter what they actually accomplish or achieve, just so long as they "feel good." HUH??

In fact, for me, self-esteem almost always goes back to what I actually DO. Even more than the *idea* that there is a Supreme Being somewhere, the all-powerful Creator of the Universe, etc. that "loves me"

is not as determining (you know what I mean) of my self-esteem as the fact that last night we had a delicious dinner at the table together as a family followed by father's blessings in prep for school which started today. Everyone's backpacks and school supplies are in order and the 6th and 8th graders woke up almost 2 hours early to get ready and visit... etc... I DID that, and I "feel good" about it.

Not to completely hijack the thread...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

School started 8/22 for your kids? I'm sorry, but that is criminal.

Here in Michigan, the state finally got a law in place to force the school districts to stop starting the school year in August, pushing it back to after Labor Day. See, the school year here had gradually gotten expanded a day or so here every year to the point that in 2006 summer break was barely two months long (didn't let out until second week of June, back to school third week of August). And yet, all through the school year, they were having days off here and there, half days off for stuff like "professional development", and then in addition to Christmas (but can't call it that) vacation, a winter break in February of a week long, and then spring break barely a month and a half later.

Anyway, the schools and teachers really fought it. But what they weren't taking into account was that families were sick and tired of the schools determining when people could or could not take vacation in the summer time, and the tourism industry here in the state sided with families because starting school early was really cutting into the economy and dollars brought into that industry.

I've got strong opinions about the quality of education I've seen in our district's schools, but it would not be conducive to add them to this discussion.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, that's nothing. In our district school started on the 20th (although we're not starting to homeschool our son until after labor day. Yay homeschooling!). Some schools started on the 16th.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

My kids started on the 20th but some schools here started on the 13th. Every monday is a shortened day so the teachers can attend training so we get out in June and go back in August. It stinks.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I wish my oldest autistic child was back to school already (he used to start earlier than the other kids 'cause he goes to whole other district) because he is driving me crazy. He has no routine or structure and he's bored out of his mind.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

School here started in early August. We are on "year-round" school where the summer break is about two months long.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Check this out-- My junior year in high school went like this... teachers were on strike in Seattle. School generally started right after Labor Day, but because of said strike, we didn't start until the first week of October! Yeah, I know! Then in February we move to Utah and I finish up school the end of May! Oh, yeah!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Roper: It'd be a drab world without art, music... AND... sex. :)

--Ray

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

The two schools nearby here started Aug. 7th and 9th, respectively. Craziness.

I'm hoping we'll start our coop group next week, and I'll start doing the homeschool stuff the week after.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

rayb wrote:

Roper: It'd be a drab world without art, music... AND... sex. :)

It would also be a world without any new people in it pretty soon. wink

arbilad · Head Chef

Euphrasie wrote:

The two schools nearby here started Aug. 7th and 9th, respectively. Craziness.

I'm hoping we'll start our coop group next week, and I'll start doing the homeschool stuff the week after.

Euphrasie, is this your first year home schooling? I seem to remember that last year they didn't want to accept your daughter into school because she missed the cutoff. Or am I remembering someone else?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

hiccups wrote:

rayb wrote:

Roper: It'd be a drab world without art, music... AND... sex. :)

It would also be a world without any new people in it pretty soon.

Hmmm... since there is ample ability and capacity in today's society for the latter of the two without addition of new people to the world, we must therefore now teach our children that babies are a by-product of the fine arts. biggrin

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Baby making IS a fine art. Mighty fine.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:
See, my problem with this is that the "attitude about themselves as learners" is often built on a sandy foundation, imo. It doesn't matter what they actually accomplish or achieve, just so long as they "feel good." HUH??

That's not how it works in my class or my school. We have high expectations for our students and we help them achieve those expectations. No exceptions. No excuses. In fact, I'm strongly considering making our class motto this year "Learn or die trying." We celebrate student achievement and reinforce the confidence that comes with competence: "How do you feel about your accomplishment?" "Isn't it a great feeling to know that you did your best?" We don't accept mediocrity and we certainly don't reward it with unearned praise. That's just sets kids up for further failure.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Roper: in your experience have you seen any stupid children?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

If by stupid you mean lacking in overall intelligence, then I have never met a stupid child. My experience has been that children who have challenges indicated by a traditional assessment (such as a low IQ score) are usually brilliant in other areas--I have in mind a former student who really struggled with academic subjects but functioned as the peacemaker for our class. He had high "social intelligence" as Howard Gardner would have classified it.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Interesting. I've always felt that too... but I think that a lot of folks don't value those forms of intelligence.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

arbilad wrote:

Euphrasie wrote:

The two schools nearby here started Aug. 7th and 9th, respectively. Craziness.

I'm hoping we'll start our coop group next week, and I'll start doing the homeschool stuff the week after.

Euphrasie, is this your first year home schooling? I seem to remember that last year they didn't want to accept your daughter into school because she missed the cutoff. Or am I remembering someone else?

No, that's me. They didn't get to us on the waiting list for pre-k enrollment, so we're homeschooling for this year, at least. We'll see how it goes before deciding what to do for next year. We're still doing the co-op group to give her a little social interaction...and give me a break from at least one of the little terrorists running through my house once in a while.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Howard Gardner, a psychologist and researcher at Harvard's graduate school of education has developed a theory of mulitiple intelligences. Wiki has a good summary here.

Gardner argues that his research identifies at least 8 distinct and measurable kinds of intelligence:

- Bodily/Kinesthetic
- Interpersonal
- Linguistic
- Logico/Mathematical
- Naturalistic
- Intrapersonal
- Spatial
- Musical

Our traditional assessments of intelligence mostly measure linguistic and logico/mathematical abilities, and sometimes spatial.

Gardner's work has significantly impacted early childhood curriculum design and instructional delivery. Elementary teachers, at least, are changing the way we think about intelligence.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Euphrasie wrote:

arbilad wrote:

Euphrasie wrote:

The two schools nearby here started Aug. 7th and 9th, respectively. Craziness.

I'm hoping we'll start our coop group next week, and I'll start doing the homeschool stuff the week after.

Euphrasie, is this your first year home schooling? I seem to remember that last year they didn't want to accept your daughter into school because she missed the cutoff. Or am I remembering someone else?

No, that's me. They didn't get to us on the waiting list for pre-k enrollment, so we're homeschooling for this year, at least. We'll see how it goes before deciding what to do for next year. We're still doing the co-op group to give her a little social interaction...and give me a break from at least one of the little terrorists running through my house once in a while.

Homeschooling for pre-k? Isn't that technically what all parents do if their child does not go to a formal pre-school program?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I would definitely have spatial intelligence because if we're out driving and MrCoco says there's X number of cows in the field and I say it's closer to Y and he's like, "No way!" I am ALWAYS (and I never exaggerate) right. Likewise with the "guess how far off that smokestack is" or those lights in the distance or the length of this pasture or whatever... Must've been the piano lessons as a child. I seem to do better on the IQ tests if I'm "half-way" trying as opposed to totally focused. I try to apply that to life in general.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

An interesting article on this topic is here:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjYxMGYwMTgzMmRjM2ZmYjY3YzM3NjExNzQyZDdjNWE=

Quote:

We should first scrap the popular therapeutic curriculum that in the scarce hours of the school day crams in sermons on race, class, gender, drugs, sex, self-esteem, or environmentalism. These are well-intentioned efforts to make a kinder and gentler generation more sensitive to our nations supposed past and present sins. But they only squeeze out far more important subjects.

The old approach to education saw things differently than we do. Education (to lead out or to bring up) was not defined as being sensitive to, or correct on, particular issues. It was instead the rational ability to make sense of the chaotic present throughthe abstract wisdom of the past.

So literature, history, math and science gave students plenty of facts, theorems, people, and dates to draw on. Then training in logic, language, and philosophy provided the tools to use and express that accumulated wisdom. Teachers usually did not care where all that training led their students politically only that their pupils ideas and views were supported with facts and argued rationally.

-- Edited by fear of shiz at 09:10, 2007-08-23

-- Edited by fear of shiz at 09:11, 2007-08-23

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Homeschooling for pre-k? Isn't that technically what all parents do if their child does not go to a formal pre-school program?

No, I'm homeschooling kindergarten. She was on the pre-K list for kindergarten because she misses the birthday cutoff. All the open spaces filled up in kindergarten before she came up on the list. One way or the other, she'll be doing 1st grade next year. (At least, officially '1st grade,' since she's pretty much already at that level now.)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh, yeah. Kindergarten's TOtally different.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

fear of shiz wrote:

We should first scrap the popular therapeutic curriculum that in the scarce hours of the school day crams in sermons on race, class, gender, drugs, sex, self-esteem, or environmentalism. These are well-intentioned efforts to make a kinder and gentler generation more sensitive to our nations supposed past and present sins. But they only squeeze out far more important subjects.

Who's curriculum is he looking at? Cause it sure ain't the curriculum in Texas.

Here's what I teach every day (mandated by state law):

Language arts (Reading and writing): 2 hours

Math: 2 hours

Science: 1 hour

Social Studies: 30 min

Lunch: 30 min

Recess: 15 min

Music: 45 min (2x/week)

PE: 45 min (2x/week)

Art: 45 min (1x/week)

That's the entire 7 hours they're in school. And I have to squeeze in afternoon snack time because our lunch is is at 10:45.

And that's Kindergarten! It get's more rigorous in the upper grades. Seriously, most of the critics of public education don't have a clue about what really goes on in the classroom.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

So...umm...I don't suppose you want to just let me have all your lesson plans for the year of kindergarten...?

(Just kidding. Mostly.)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

7 hours of kindergarten?! That's insane.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

echo!

-- Edited by rayb at 23:15, 2007-08-23

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

You wanna know what's insane? They start the elementary here at 7:15. That means little bitty kids are out waiting for the bus at 6:45, sometimes when it's still dark during the winter...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Euphrasie wrote:

So...umm...I don't suppose you want to just let me have all your lesson plans for the year of kindergarten...?

(Just kidding. Mostly.)

Euph, I'd be happy to send them to you. Or find an appropriate way to post them on a blog or website or something. This next week I'm teaching classroom routines and conducting extensive baseline testing, so I haven't prepared any formal academic lesson plans for the week. The following week I'll have good ones to send. My lesson plans reference the grade-level Texas standards and the district curriculum framework, so I don't know how applicable that will be for you. But the learning objectives, activities, and assessments might be useful. And I would love to hear back from you periodically on how you adapt the lessons for home school.

In the meantime, here are some references to check out:

Texas grade-level standards for essential knowledge and skills
National language arts standards
National math standards
National science standards

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hey Roper... hate to be a fly in your ointment... okay... so maybe I like it a little...

but...

it occurs to me that it's really easy to write standards... and to even make them really tough standards so that they look good on the books. But how many teachers sign on? How many educators are even qualified to teach to such levels--or even care?

And add to that noncommittal parents and children who are taught that any form of authority figure is stupid... and well... I think all you do by making high standards is give educators an excuse to feel bad about themselves...

So why try at all? :)

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

In Texas, the standards for becoming a certified teacher are pretty high, so that has a net effect of professionalizing the teacher corps. Additionally, teachers lose their jobs when they have consistently poor-performing students. That's a pretty big incentive. Finally, if teachers feel bad about themselves because they can't meet the standards, then maybe they need to find another career.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Euph, I'd be happy to send them to you. Or find an appropriate way to post them on a blog or website or something.
Yay! *happy dance*

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

See, it's that half-hour of "Social Studies" that we're worried about...

My sis. is a teacher in Texas. Working on her PhD. to be a Principal.

My 5yo is in the local Catholic kindergarten. Sixteen kids in the class and they come out smarter than a whip!

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think that Hiccups is going to make sure her kids are educated now that she's started home-schooling. You the man Hiccups! er-woman.