Cooking with Booze

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Cooking with Booze

arbilad · Head Chef

Also in one of the great brain books the mother makes her mincemeat pies with just a bit of rum.
Off the top of my head, I'd say that there is no problem with cooking with alcoholic beverages, just so long as you make sure it cooks out.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I remember making a recipe in Home Economics once in high school and we didn't cook it quite long enough and I think we all felt a little tipsy. Or it may have been my imagination. Either way I thought it was funny, but I felt guilty at the same time.

I say as long as you don't use alot and you cook it long enough so all the alcohol cooks out, it shouldn't be a problem. (The recipe we were given in high school called for alot of cooking sherry).

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I wouldn't have a problem cooking with wine, etc. -- except for the temptation to taste the stuff. Especially the rum.

But that's just my own personal weakness. YMMV

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Not okay, in my opinion.

It is a fallacy to assume that all alcoholic beverages and liquor evaporate or are burned off in the cooking process, despite what the "stars" say on Food Network. I am of the opinion that even at a restaurant, one needs to be mindful of the ingredients listed on the menu. If you order something that states the sauce or marinade or whatever includes alcoholic content, then you can't feign ignorance with regards to keeping the WoW

Now, for most of us, the remaining amount in a dish after cooking may be negligable and would not be a problem, and perhaps is not even violating the WoW if we don't know that it was added, but for an alcoholic, it is not as innocuous. So consider this... you know that tobacco isn't good for people, even without the WoW... would you season a nice juicy pot roast with sprinkles of ground tobacco leaf just because it adds a certain oomph to the dish?

There are usually non-alcoholic substitutes that can be used for wine and some other alcoholic beverages that work from the "seasoning" standpoint.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

It is a fallacy to assume that all alcoholic beverages and liquor evaporate or are burned off in the cooking process, despite what the "stars" say on Food Network.
Gotta source for that fallacy info? I would like to read a definitive conclusion about that.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I've read that it doesn't all cook off also, though I am too lazy to find a source.

Personally I avoid stuff with alkie-haul in it, if I can... but I've sometimes been fooled into trying somethings that had it in it... like once in Italy on my mission I et meself a piece of candy labelled "Cognac"... Being so used to not being able to understand the words in Italian, I assumed that I couldn't understand it and just popped it in... Imagine my surprise when I hit the liquid fire center...

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Why would it not all cook off, as long as you thoroughly cook it? After all, at a certain temperature alcohol evaporates. It is a simple rule of physics. Granted, the cooking process doesn't apply heat evenly to all parts of the food at once. But as long as you are patient and allow all parts of the food to heat to the proper temperature for the alcohol to evaporate, what's the problem? Am I missing something here?
Granted, it's probably best to use a non-alcoholic equivalent in cooking. But even stuff like o'douls has some alcohol in it, albeit a negligible amount.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

A fellow in the ward who worked in professional kitchens his whole career told me it once... of course, he was not definitive.

http://www.post-gazette.com/food/20020609wolke0609sfnp9.asp

http://chefmom.com/askchefmom/alcoholcooking.htm

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholEvap.htm

I'm not gonna pass judgement on anyone who does cook with alcohol, cuz that is each person's choice. But, I would feel it inconsiderate to not be informed that the dish I'm being served / offered includes wine, or rum, or beer, or whatever if it was prepared by another member of the church.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I am going to Hell. I use vanilla extract, which is about 40% alcohol, in a lot of things. If the alcohol doesn't all cook out, well then...

I hope the Lord will have mercy on my lack of hyper-vigilance.

Oh, and sometimes when I have a bad cold and my sinuses are so stopped up that I can't sleep, I use *gasp* Nyquil! Yep. Headed to Hellfire. For sure.

eta: Here's a research-based answer.

-- Edited by Roper at 10:14, 2007-07-25

arbilad · Head Chef

All that proves is that you need to cook it longer than 2.5 hours to get rid of all the alcohol. If you keep the temperature low enough, such as you have in a slow cooker, you shouldn't burn it if you cook it for 3-4 hours.
This also brings up the question of cooking with vanilla. After all, it has alcohol in it.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper wrote:

I am going to Hell. I use vanilla extract, which is about 40% alcohol, in a lot of things. If the alcohol doesn't all cook out, well then...

I hope the Lord will have mercy on my lack of hyper-vigilance.

Oh, and sometimes when I have a bad cold and my sinuses are so stopped up that I can't sleep, I use *gasp* Nyquil! Yep. Headed to Hellfire. For sure.

I was wondering when someone would equate flavoring extracts and medicines that contain alcohol to cooking with alcoholic beverages... weirdface

In both cases, the amount that is being put into the body is negigable (starts out as a tablespoon or less) when compared to making a french stew that the stock is 3 or 4 cups of red wine or a chili that contains a can or two of beer.

Like I said though, I don't pass judgement on anyone that chooses to cook using those ingredients. Out of courtesy if one is LDS, one should let their LDS guests know though, the same way one would want to make sure they are not serving something that they are allergic too.

And then, there is the whole appearance thing... does one keep it stashed in a dark corner so no one else sees one has a bottle of wine? How does one explain it then to folks (LDS or not) who know LDS folks aren't supposed to have that? How does one explain it to their kids who learn about the WoW at primary? Anyone care to enlighten King Prude? wink

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

What about potatos. Potatos contain nicotine and nicotine is evil unless it is in a bar of smooth, sweet Tomacolatte Tomacolate.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well, then maybe we need to put warning labels on anything containing potatos...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat, if I'm making stew or chili that's gonna simmer for three hours, I'm down to about the same alcohol content as a spoonful of medicine, etc.

But, all of this is just academic.

I don't cook with alcohol, except for what's in liquid extracts like vanilla. 1: I don't want to explain to my children or guests why there is alcohol in the house, just as you mentioned. 2: It's not necessary. I can make everything my family enjoys eating without it. With so many excellent recipes available, there's always an alternative to using alcohol. Unless you absitively posolutely must have flambe, which I never really liked anyway.

arbilad · Head Chef

Like Roper, I'm not really wild about adding an alcoholic beverage to a recipe. And I want to make a point very similar to his, but with numbers. I'm not sure what percentage of beer is alcohol; I think it's 2 or 3%, but for the sake of argument let's say it's 4 percent. That means that you're adding .64 of a tablespoon of alcohol to the recipe. In a cookie recipe using a tablespoon of vanilla (40% alcohol content), you're looking at adding .4 tablespoon of alcohol. The difference is not that great. Especially when you consider that the beer is probably being added to soup or beef, which has a lot of mass to dilute it further. The cookie recipe is comparitively smaller by mass. To further excascerbate the problem, you typically cook cookies for only between 9-14 minutes, depending on a variety of factors. That is very little time for the alcohol to evaporate, so much more of that .4 tablespoon of alcohol is going to stay around than the .64 tablespoon of alcohol in the meat or soup, which will be cooked for much longer.
Think about that the next time you buy a cookie from a store or street vendor. That cookie probably still has alcohol left in it.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I do have to admit that I had a chili once a co-worker made for a work pot-luck that was very good... then I found out he had put beer in it. I could only imagine how much, cuz I had seen him get plastered at another work party on something called Grey Goose where the leader in charge had authorized a free open bar for all in attendance.

I was quite discrete with my outward reaction (glad I had only taken a couple plastic spoonfuls worth instead of a whole bowl) and did mention how good it tasted to him, but my internal reaction was probably very akin to how a devout muslim or jew would react to finding out they had just eaten pork.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

We consume alcohol all the time. It is a natural part of fermentation. Most people don't realize it but fruits start rotting right away. True the amounts are pretty small but you are eating it.

I think there is the spirit of the law here. If you're pooring so much into that rum cake so you can get a buzz, I think you've stepped over the line.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Alcohol by volume

I don't know how accurate it is, but this is okay for relative purposes.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm not sure what percentage of beer is alcohol; I think it's 2 or 3%, but for the sake of argument let's say it's 4 percent. That means that you're adding .64 of a tablespoon of alcohol to the recipe. In a cookie recipe using a tablespoon of vanilla (40% alcohol content), you're looking at adding .4 tablespoon of alcohol. The difference is not that great.
Let's get some perspective here.

Most recipes for cookies, brownies, etc do not call for 1 Tablespoon of vanilla--it's typically 1 tsp or so. Additionally, that recipe makes several dozen cookies -- so each individual cookie is going to have a miniscule amount of alcohol left in it from the vanilla.

I have a wonderful chocolate chip cookie recipe that calls for 2 Tablespoons of vanilla; that recipe produces a good 6 dozen cookies. So that .8 Tbsp of vanilla is divided by 72, which equals .011111111 Tbsp of alcohol per cookie. Big. Deal.

In addition, I let my kids eat the cookie dough raw. :gasp: Save me a seat in hell, will ya Roper?

Incidentally, beer alcohol percentage varies by brand. Major American brands average closer to 5% (realbeer.com). Also, there are 2 Tablespoons per ounce of liquid, so a 12 oz can of 4% beer would have .48 ounces of alcohol, which is roughly one TBS.

arbilad · Head Chef

US beer tends to be towards the bottom end of the scale. Other nations constantly make fun of how weak american beer is. In fact, there's a joke that goes something like this: How's having sex in a canoe like american beer? Because it's f---ing close to water.
Of course, contrary to the popular depiction of it, US beer is still alcoholic enough to get drunk off of.
BTW, I agree with Jason. It's the spirit of the thing. If Roper drank Nyquil every day, claiming that it was for medicinal reasons, I'd be suspicious of that. But if he only took it occasionally, what's the problem?
Anyway, my point with the cookie example is just that there isn't much difference, by alcoholic volume, between cooking with vanilla and cooking with a can of beer. I imagine, Cat, that you eat cookies. It is likely then that you are consuming a certain amount of alcohol.
BTW, I understand how you feel about unknowingly consuming alcohol. My greenie trainer and I were tricked into drinking a "fruit drink" by an investigator. I took one sip and it was so nasty that I didn't continue. It was obviously alcoholic, and I felt betrayed. We were willing to go back and teach him, but for some reason he didn't want to have anything to do with us after that.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

My sugar cookies only baked for 7 and 1/2 minutes this morning. (Just warning you.)

I think next time I bring cookies to a ward activity I'll post a little note by them:

WARNING- For those of you wishing to keep the Word of Wisdom, please be warned that these cookies contain alcohol in the form of vanilla. You cannot feign ignorance on the Day of Judgment.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I can't believe arbi quoted the Monty Python canoe joke!

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

arbilad · Head Chef

bokbadok wrote:

I'm not sure what percentage of beer is alcohol; I think it's 2 or 3%, but for the sake of argument let's say it's 4 percent. That means that you're adding .64 of a tablespoon of alcohol to the recipe. In a cookie recipe using a tablespoon of vanilla (40% alcohol content), you're looking at adding .4 tablespoon of alcohol. The difference is not that great.
Let's get some perspective here.

Most recipes for cookies, brownies, etc do not call for 1 Tablespoon of vanilla--it's typically 1 tsp or so. Additionally, that recipe makes several dozen cookies -- so each individual cookie is going to have a miniscule amount of alcohol left in it from the vanilla.

I have a wonderful chocolate chip cookie recipe that calls for 2 Tablespoons of vanilla; that recipe produces a good 6 dozen cookies. So that .8 Tbsp of vanilla is divided by 72, which equals .011111111 Tbsp of alcohol per cookie. Big. Deal.

In addition, I let my kids eat the cookie dough raw. :gasp: Save me a seat in hell, will ya Roper?

Incidentally, beer alcohol percentage varies by brand. Major American brands average closer to 5% (realbeer.com). Also, there are 2 Tablespoons per ounce of liquid, so a 12 oz can of 4% beer would have .48 ounces of alcohol, which is roughly one TBS.

Ok, so my off the cuff numbers were wrong. But the point stands. You are consuming some amount of alcohol when eating a cookie.

For some reason I thought beer came in 8 ounce cans. Beer is not my area of specialty.

My favorite cookie recipe uses 2 teaspoons. There are 3 teaspoons per tablespoon, so I was pretty close.

Besides, vanilla is used in a lot of things, not just cookies. So even if you don't eat cookies, you occassionally get some.

arbilad · Head Chef

BTW, I eat raw cookie dough too.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I'm bringing Rum Cake to the next ward pot luck. Should keep me out of any serious callings for a while.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

My caramel recipe has a lot of vanilla. But it bubbles for an hour. So chemically speaking, my caramel is closer to the WoW than Coco's cookies.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

The groom's cake at my niece's wedding was a chocolate-rum lovely concoction. MrCoco had not had rum before (or any alcohol) and he was going crazy over this cake... "I've never tasted a cake like this! This is awesome!" I didn't want to ruin it for him...

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

arbilad wrote:
My greenie trainer and I were tricked into drinking a "fruit drink" by an investigator. I took one sip and it was so nasty that I didn't continue.

One of my ex brothers-in-law did that to me once, when I was a teenager. He knew I was LDS, and he considered himself uber-Catholic. He came into the living room with a cup of something and said "here, try this." Like Arbi, I could obviously tell it was alcoholic. It ended up being some hideous thing called "coffee whiskey."

What a jerk for giving a teenager alcohol, anyway. Should have known he'd never pay his child support willingly.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Oh, and FWIW, I have no problem if someone chooses to cook with alcohol. I would suggest putting it in the food, but YMMV.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hey... I don't mind being the scape goat fer all you jack-marmon boozin' cookin' types ... really I don't...

Like I said, I don't pass judgement on anyone... a question was asked as to whether folks thought it was okay or not to use alcohol (with reference to beverages) in cooking, and I responded with my viewpoint...

But hey, it got Hoss to come out of lurkerdom for a few posts.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I guess those heavenly beer-battered fish filets at that place on the coast is out...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Not if you give it up grudgingly... and complain endlessly about it.

I don't drink caffienated pop either, though I know it's not strictly in the WoW... THen again, I love eating meat... so lots of black kettles on me...

--Ray

PS> And yeah, Roper, you're probably gonna go to hell, but not for your carmel. You'll be sent there as a missionary in the postmortal world. :)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I was kidding, ray. You think I'm really giving those UP?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I have several recipes where I use extract of some sort which do not get cooked. I guess I'm naughty.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Beer-battered filets and "chips" wrapped in newsprint. And a quarter bottle of malt vinegar. That in itself is almost enough to get me to move to the UK.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I just buy the cooking wines that are usually with the vinegars, they are not really the same as regular wine and can be rung up by a minor cashier. I don't think there is much alcohol in them. I find the flavor works or I buy dealcoholized wine. I love the flavor it adds. I have never drank real wine, only the dealcoholized version, but stopped when I realized they still have one half of one percent alcohol in them. I think it is negligible, but my choice.

The ironic this is, I would love to own and operate a winery.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

A couple of interesting things involving wine and European LDSs.

I once visited with a family in Belgium right after they joined the Church. They ran a succesful wine shop. The husband and wife, who impressed me as potentially great members, expressed their concern to me about finding some other way to support their family, and the oos and aahs of members of their branch. A few days later I discussed their concern with an LDS neighbor who had recently been released as a mission president, and shortly became a 70. He told me he had advised the couple to continue running their business until they felt comfortable about making a change.

While living in Italy I went as a substitute home teaching companion to visit the district president. Smack in the center of the living room was one of those wine racks with 10 -15 bottles of wine. He explained it as a rememberance of earlier times.

My wife uses beer to kill slugs in our (really her) flower garden. Also we lay it in when her non-member family members come to visit. The trick is to get it out of the local supermarket without being seen by certain members of the ward.

arbilad · Head Chef

I've heard the "use beer to kill slugs" thing before. I've never tried it, but I hear that it works.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Makes your hair shiny, too.

So I've heard...

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Beer battered fried fish is good, and at 375F in oil, I think the alcohol will be boiled out.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

beer kills slugs, yes. It also kills many a teenager.

Personally I don't freak out if it's in the food, but do what I can to avoid it. I try very hard to be consistent in this regard when it comes to setting an example for my children.

I kinda get annoyed with the name Rootbeer too, so sometimes in our house we call it Root-pop. :)

--Ray

Dyany · Senior Member

As I understand it, many strong infusion-type drinks were once called 'beer' -- e.g., (sarsaparilla) root beer, ginger beer, etc. nothing alcoholic about them.

Which reminds me, once I had Kahlua ice cream (don't think I was really realizing it was made with alcohol) and it was SO GROSS that I couldn't even finish it. I think that was the only time that I couldn't finish ice cream, EVER.

Otherwise, extracts don't bother me. Nyquil doesn't bother me. Buying pre-battered 'beer battered' items doesn't bother me. But cooking with wine/beer kind of does bother me; I don't like having copious amounts of the stuff in my house as a temptation to anyone.

Kind of like how I don't like having guns in my house. Not only am I ridiculously clumsy, but I suffer from chronic and very severe depression. Guns + severe depression = very bad idea.

Ya just gots ta know yer limitations.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Sorry to hear about the depression. I understand alkie-haul ain't good for that. But I hear dancing happy little jigs is... sadly the only way you can get away with doing jigs in public is if you're drunk... but that's never stopped me...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

99 bottles of beer on the wall...
99 bottles of beeeeeer.....

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Dyany wrote:

Which reminds me, once I had Kahlua ice cream (don't think I was really realizing it was made with alcohol) and it was SO GROSS that I couldn't even finish it. I think that was the only time that I couldn't finish ice cream, EVER.

Kahlua is a double WoW whammy. It's coffee flavored liqueur. No wonder you didn't like it. bleh

nitasmile · Senior Member

At my brother's high school graduation meal a few weeks ago, I tried a delicious "tequila lime chicken". I had debated ordering it, up until then, I'd always sided on the side of not using alcohol seasonings in food and would order items w/o alcohol in the seasonings, etc. But then I decided to try this chicken, my. Yum! This discussion came up at a recent enrichment activity, people seemed to side w/the idea of ithe alcohol content cooking out.

What are thoughts about pure vanilla icecream?? Recently at a activity day activity, we had icecream. During this activity, one of the sisters who is the leader said we shouldn't use pure vanilla icecream due to pure vanilla icecream has increased alcholic content due to the alchol in pure vanilla. She is a wonderful sister, a recent convert, etc and one of my favorite people in the ward and I love her very much as a dear sister. However, I have never felt guilty about pure vanilla icecream and question sharing that info w/our young activity day sisters. I don't want to be spreading to the new generation that pure vanilla icecream is forbidden. She will be receptive to insights on this topic.

Thanks- along w/someone else, I also eat raw cookie dough. And in college, we had "drippy doo parties"-- which was when my roommates and I sat around a bowl of raw cake batter and ate the raw cake mix.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Cat Herder has a great point about people should have the courtesy to inform people of alcoholic content in foods, esp if LDS people are cooking something.
(still haven't forgiven the people who served me spaghetti w/deer meat meatballs while on my mission).

nitasmile · Senior Member

Cocobeem wrote:

My sugar cookies only baked for 7 and 1/2 minutes this morning. (Just warning you.)

I think next time I bring cookies to a ward activity I'll post a little note by them:

WARNING- For those of you wishing to keep the Word of Wisdom, please be warned that these cookies contain alcohol in the form of vanilla. You cannot feign ignorance on the Day of Judgment.

HaHa! w/all these cookie example, you all are making me feel worried! Seriously, I never felt cookies were a violation. And while I didn't feel bad about the tequila lime chicken, now I am wondering if this is a cause for mentionning to the bishop. I've always felt I was 100% compliant w/the alcohol aspect of Wof W. Now I'm questionning if the issues of this thread is similar to the caffeine issue.