Cannibalism

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Cannibalism

arbilad · Head Chef

I can't think of any scripture or rule offhand specifically against it, but I still don't think that it's ok. For one thing, our bodies are temples. The spirit may temporarily leave, but it's still a temple. I can't think of any specific rule against desecrating a dead body either, but I'm fairly sure it's not allowed.
Also, ask yourself this question: why would the Lord build in such a strong aversion to it? Unless you're from a culture that practices it, even in extremes you have to force yourself before you'll do it (from everything I've heard).
I'm not afraid of death, so there's no way I'd force myself to overcome such a strong inborn revulsion just to keep myself alive.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Cocobeem wrote:
I mean, we think organ transplanting is okay...

Who's we? Gotta mouse in yer pocket?

As to cannibalism, as it is practiced culturally, seems to be a gross perversion of the concept of the sacrament. That Powerful Ordinance, the Sacrament

More generally speaking, it would appear spiritually that it is a symptom of moral depravity. A Promised Land

Hence, the commandments are going to focus in on things that will keep people safe from falling into that level of depravity. If you obey the ten commandments, for example, you ain't likely to just up and decide one day ya got a hankerin' for a hunk a fresh human flesh...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

But the body is a temple BECAUSE it houses the spirit, right? Once the spirit is gone... isn't it just elements, fertilizer, whatever? I mean, some people have an aversion to eating animals, too. They look at them as being spirit creations of God, too... And I'm not talking about killing people specifically to eat them... But like the Donner party...

So, arbi, if it came down to eating a person or dying, you'd rather die? I mean, when you die, it's over, you know. No more time to repent or anything.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You know, in those extremely rare instances, I think it ends up being something that only God can judge.

Personally, I think along the lines of Arbilad in this. I would rather die than knowingly seek nourishment from the corpse of another person. And, then I would come back and mercilessly haunt my stranded companions if they ate my corpse after I died...

arbilad · Head Chef

Coco, in most cases the aversion people have to eating meat is a learned behavior. Most people really don't think about cannibalism much. And yet, it is one of the most strongly ingrained taboos that we have. I'm told stories of people in the Soviet Union who resorted to cannibalism during WWII, and it came back to haunt them even 40 years later.
Humankind occupies a special place amongst God's creations. Nothing else is quite like us. Nothing else has the potential to become like Heavenly Father. Nothing else is created in his image. So, since a human being is not just another animal, cannibalism can't really be compared to eating other animals. Even most vegetarians, if it came to a famine, would readily eat meat instead of dieing. But many people will die before they would eat other people, no matter how they died.
I also don't think that a body is just elements or fertilizer. Granted, it is no longer that person until their spirit comes back to reinhabit it. But why, for instance, do we consecrate graves to remain undisturbed until the millennium if the contents are mere fertilizer? Why does the church discourage cremation if it is just so much once living matter? Why are the bodies of endowed members dressed in temple clothes after they pass on? In our church, a great deal of reverence is encouraged when dealing with the bodies of those who have passed on.
There is the health aspect, too. Whatever diseases they had will be very easily passed on to you, since they don't have to jump the species barrier.
Anyway, when it comes right down to it, I would rather die than engage in cannibalism. Yes, death marks the end of this earthly testing period. But you don't have to be perfect to get a passing grade, you just have to be trying. I have a hard time believing that the Lord wouldn't reward me for dieing just because I was following what I believed to be his will.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Some of us are after more than the "passing grade" but be that as it may...

Is there something on the Church's website about cremation? I wasn't aware the Church discourages it. People die in fires, are buried at sea (digested by various animals) and otherwise returned to the dust every day... I'm not sure why we consecrate graves to remain undisturbed... If they are disturbed, does this somehow affect the deceased's eternal status? Job acknowledged that worms would devour his body...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Try this on cremation... or this...

I think the preference for burial has more to do with the religious symbolism that carried over into ancient christianity in general from ancient jewish law and practice, and upon which much of modern Western civilization has evolved culturally concerning burial.

I mean, there are some pretty bizzare practices in the middle ages in europe as to how to take care of the dead... some that seem to be quite barbaric like what you would think would only be found in primitive tribes in the rain forest or something... rituals and things that make egyptian mummification and some native american tribes placing of a body on a raised rack in the open seem almost normal in comparison...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

From cat's first link-

"Hence, although I personally prefer embalming and burial and although it has been the pattern followed by Israel, there appears to be no prohibition against cremation in the scriptures or in the theology of the Church. Certainly there is no doubt but that people whose bodies are destroyed by fire (cremated), as was the case with one of our Korean sisters in a recent hotel disaster, will rise again intact in the resurrection from the dead."

He doesn't seem to differentiate between an accidental cremation and one planned. I can understand where land is at a premium (some Asian countries) that burial just isn't affordable or possible for some...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

One of my ancestors via marriage actually helped rescue the Donner party. Believe me, it wasn't much of a party. No food, no music, nobody wearing a toga and a lampshade. As parties go this one wasn't that great. And without Donna Reed around it wasn't that great a party anyway.

The Donner and Reed parties where scattered over a large area. Only a few actually engaged in Canibalism which is not to be confused with Cannonballrunism which was a disease from the 80s that caused movie studios to turn out horrible movies.

Cannibalism from a health standpoint is bad. Certain genetic abnormalities have been discovered in Papua New Guinea's indiginous peoples directly attributable to cannibalism. I remember learning about this way back in the 80s. Even some native american cultures practiced forms of canibalism. Eating an enemy could infuse one with his power or strength as was believed by some.

What if you ate someone and then the resurection happened later that day? Hmmmmmmm?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Or you had a kidney transplant and WHAM! I'll take that back now, thank you very much!

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

salesortonscom wrote:

What if you ate someone and then the resurection happened later that day? Hmmmmmmm?

Nearly choked on a carrot. weirdface

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

hiccups wrote:

salesortonscom wrote:

What if you ate someone and then the resurection happened later that day? Hmmmmmmm?

Nearly choked on a carrot.

Hey, I imagine that would be a lot easier on ya physically than fighting to keep the hunk of bicep or thigh you just ate down that is forceably comin' back up to get back in place on the person resurrecting...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Alright! Settle down!! This was a serious discussion before you got allprism-eyed about it.

Hunk o' bicep. rolleyes

Hey, that was weird. This thing changed my word. Who says prism-eyed?

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 16:24, 2007-07-09

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You obviously said a bad word... I'm gonna tell!

(filter replacement of what you said... see Herr Arbilad)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

So bite me.

arbilad · Head Chef

You want a piece of me?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Yeah, it's easy to say, "I'd rather die myself than eat another dead human" when the last time you ate was like what, a few hours ago?

Have you ever been really really hungry? The kind of hungry that happens after four or more days with no food? You don't think rationally. You don't care about religious traditions. Your one overwhelming desire that consumes every waking moment and fills your fitful sleep is finding something to eat. Anything. And lots of stuff that we normally wouldn't consider approaching within 10 ft starts to look palatable.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Coco- have you ever seen a cadaver? In school, we had a cadaver lab and there is a certain sacredness about looking at a body or just the brain of the person, etc. The spirit isn't in there anymore, but there is just a special sacredness .

Not to be gross but you all started it! As mere muscle, yeah the muscles look like chicken. Some of the nerves remind me of strong noodles. My classmates and I had a hard time eating chicken the first few weeks.

I know with the Resurrection, perhaps there is some special way for our organs, etc to be regenerated. Maybe Heavenly Father has a storage case w/a tiny sample of the DNA of each of us so somehow through that Priesthood Power, He can instantly recreate our physical body, etc...even if our body has been burned, brutilized, lost at sea, eaten by worms or rats or destroyed or decayed in countless ways. So even though it is funny, and of course this is just my speculation, if the Resurrection Day occurred on the day someone donated a kidney, no donated kidney will be retrieved-- I would think He would just create another new one for the donor and create a new one for the recipient.

To me it is our duty as humans to do our best to honor His sacred creations and our fellow human beings.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I have complete faith that He's going to pull a "Bones cure" out of His bag for me... Give me a pill and I'll grow a new kidney!!!!

-- Edited by PollyAnna at 23:38, 2007-07-09

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper wrote:
lots of stuff that we normally wouldn't consider approaching within 10 ft starts to look palatable.

Hence the reason scouts will eat anything in sight (even brussel sprouts) at the end of a 50 miler...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Precisely.

arbilad · Head Chef

Roper wrote:

Yeah, it's easy to say, "I'd rather die myself than eat another dead human" when the last time you ate was like what, a few hours ago?

Have you ever been really really hungry? The kind of hungry that happens after four or more days with no food? You don't think rationally. You don't care about religious traditions. Your one overwhelming desire that consumes every waking moment and fills your fitful sleep is finding something to eat. Anything. And lots of stuff that we normally wouldn't consider approaching within 10 ft starts to look palatable.

It is true that I have never been that long without food (nor, I imagine, have you). But I have read plenty of stories where people have died from hunger when they could have eaten human flesh. There is a strong aversion to cannibalism built into human nature. In stories that I have read where people have resorted to cannibalism, it has still required a tremendous force of will for them to eat human flesh.

BTW, not to thread hijack, but your point helps prove something that the prophets have been saying for decades - your food storage should be composed of the simplest foods that will sustain life. Thus the emphasis on wheat, rice, etc. I get so tired of people saying, "But I'd rather die than eat that stuff." People have been known to eat boiled boot leather when they are hungry enough. The "store what you eat" line is extremely misleading, and I think one reason why many saints don't have a year's supply, as they've been counseled to get. They've bought in to the belief that they need a year's supply of YoHo's and Mountain House freeze dried foods, and they have, at best, a month or two supply. I won't be eating a fancy diet for a year, but I'll be eating.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

We LIKE beans and rice... and a lots of other stuff that is standard in our food storage like dried fruit and rolled oats... We do store what we eat... but we eat the basics year round... Rotating is no sweat, we're always eating and replacing from our years supply...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper wrote:

Yeah, it's easy to say, "I'd rather die myself than eat another dead human" when the last time you ate was like what, a few hours ago?

Have you ever been really really hungry? The kind of hungry that happens after four or more days with no food? You don't think rationally. You don't care about religious traditions. Your one overwhelming desire that consumes every waking moment and fills your fitful sleep is finding something to eat. Anything. And lots of stuff that we normally wouldn't consider approaching within 10 ft starts to look palatable.

It sounds as if a couple of us are being chided for supposedly passing judgement here... no judgement on those who have found themselves in this situation was passed though. What I said was that I would never knowingly do it. That is a rational decision, just like the many other things that we decide what we would do if a situation presents itself before the moment hits (reference the primary story about the engineer who saves the train when he comes across freight cars across the track by speeding up and ramming through them...

). I would go all Euell Gibbons first and eat a pine tree. Ummmm... pine tree.... Aaaaahhhh! {Homer drool mode on}

Year's supply of YoHo's? Don't you mean HoHo's?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

PollyAnna wrote:

Roper wrote:
lots of stuff that we normally wouldn't consider approaching within 10 ft starts to look palatable.

Hence the reason scouts will eat anything in sight (even brussel sprouts) at the end of a 50 miler...

Yeah, well, our scouts are pretty lazy... 50 miler? Tchja! Right! And if it doesn't include the 3 basic food groups... slim jims, pixie sticks, and twizzlers... then it is non-edible. Would you like to lay bets how many months I still found the wrappers from a mere 4 boys that I drove up to summer camp in my van last summer despite warning them that I didn't want to find a single thing left if they insisted on gorging themselves on the stuff at 5 in the morning? rolleyes

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

My son did a 50-miler bike ride.

I was impressed. He also found some old LDS book from like 1910 out on the plains somewhere...

Anyhoo- I've seen dead people but not in a medical school type setting. I guess I just don't get the warm fuzzies everyone else is getting when looking at the dead body. It doesn't seem particularly spiritual to me. Yes, the temple clothing is spiritual. Yes, the memories of the deceased are special to me. But I don't look at the dead body as "them" I guess. It's the spirit that makes it sacred. At least to me.

Or maybe I feel a stronger hold on life...? I'm not "afraid" to die per se, but I really, really want to stay alive as long as I can so I can repent more.

Giving up is something I think the Lord would be very offended at. Of course, eating dead bodies might offend Him more, I'm not sure. I think the reason the folks who resorted to cannibalism were so haunted by it was because they were able to view it in the light of civilization many years later. They could no longer imagine being in that situation and it bothered them who they had apparently become at one point in time.

Besides, we know it's coming. At least we have prophecies that indicate that. And we're also apprised of some cannibalism in Moroni 9. The endtimes will be no less horrific.

Different minds can go different places. Once you've lived through the "unthinkable" in one form or another, it's easier to "imagine" other unthinkables. But I'm with roper when he says we have *no idea* what starvation is really like. We can't have so much faith in the arm of flesh. Oh- wait. I mean, I think it's premature to say without reservation, "I will not do such-and-such a thing, ever." What's the biggest trial you've been through? (Not talking to anyone in particular here.) Does it even hold a candle to the hypothetical situation where cannibalism becomes an option?

arbilad · Head Chef

Robert C Bennion mentioned cannibalism briefly in the June 1975 Ensign. While not definitive, it is still indicative.

Nothing could please Lucifer more. In some societies, the idea of a sacrament degenerated into savagery; to many twentieth century people it has become an empty relic, a meaningless repetition, or a pseudo-magical affair pretending power through showmanship or mystical self-deception. In any case, man loses the relationship and the power which God promised in the sacrament. Indifference and disbelief corrupt the sacred as surely as cannibalism does.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

We can't have so much faith in the arm of flesh.

Yeah, in the end times, we can not have faith that eating the flesh off an arm is gonna give us more time to repent... : wink:

Serious side...

I've seen dead people but not in a medical school type setting. I guess I just don't get the warm fuzzies everyone else is getting when looking at the dead body. It doesn't seem particularly spiritual to me.
You've not experienced the death of a parent, sibling, spouse, or child yet, have you?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I believe cannibalism in this sense is when people are sacrificed for such a purpose, which I can see no good in whatsoever. When the person is already dead, you and your children are dying and you're deciding what to do with the body is a different situation to me.

I also believe there are things that do indeed please Lucifer more. The situation HSR brought up elsewhere, for example. Again, just my opinion.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I have not "experienced" death in the sense that I was present at their death, no. Have you? What was the experience like?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I have experienced death at that intimate of a connection (being present when one passes). It was akin to some spiritual experiences in the temple, and is not something that one normally shares unless moved upon by The Spirit.

In the past dozen or so years, I've experienced either directly or indirectly the death of my parents, my mother-in-law, my wife's step-brother, a friend's middle-school son, the infant child of a young couple I home taught, a co-worker, my wife's grandparents, two aunts, and at least one or two family friends from when I was a teen. My own grandparents died either when I was very young or as a teen / young adult.

I don't know, maybe it is just me, but it seems that the closer one is to someone who has passed to the other side, and maybe the older one gets with the more prevalent knowledge of one's own mortality, the less likely one is to equate the corpse of any person as just a thing to do with as is most expedient. Each death of someone close to you kind of compounds that feeling of awe and respect.

Does that help?

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

have you ever seen a cadaver? ... As mere muscle, yeah the muscles look like chicken.
Huh. I remember the muscle looking more like jerky.

I feel like cocobeem in that I have never viewed a body in the casket as "them". However, I don't know if I could go so far as to eat human flesh -- particularly if it was a member of my family. But I think the key words are "I don't know". I've known people who talked as if they weren't all that attached to mortal life go to great lengths to preserve their life when it was threatened. So which is greater, the aversion to cannibalism, or the will to live? Hard to say unless you've been there. Apparently, opinions differed among members of the Donner party as well.

arbilad · Head Chef

Hunger is, of course, a very driving need. People will murder, steal, or whatever if they are desperate enough for food. But it's not an irresistible urge. People go on hunger strikes where they willingly, for whatever cause, don't eat.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Wouldn't you eat? Even if it were served up with a nice chianti and some fava beans?

--Ray

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

34. The number of replies before we got the first Hannibal Lector reference. Not too bad. wink

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I guess this is just splitting hairs (ahem) but I understand the whole reverence for life and feelings toward the deceased person, etc. It's just not stirred in me by the actual corpse of the departed. It's within my own mind and memory. I'm not "attached" to the body once the person has died. I lost both my in-laws in the last year and it was a solemn time. Moreso for my husband, who was present at their passings.

I'm not saying this hypothetical is at all something we can even imagine right now as we sit in our comfy homes plunking along on our keyboards. And as for disposing of bodies-- yes, it's a nice thought to think we'll always be able to go down to the local mortuary and pick out just the right lovely casket for whomever it is that has passed, have a nice ceremony, etc... But there are times in history (Influenza pandemic of 1918 comes to mind right off) where people could not be buried in a nice, peaceful way. People were just dying TOO FAST. Joseph F. Smith did not have a public funeral due to this very event. But that was because public Church meetings (or any other public meetings) were banned, not because the bodies were piling up in Utah so much. Other areas they seriously were and it was a problem in more ways than one.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well, I would certainly recommend against cannibalism during an influenza pandemic...

I wouldn't say it is splitting hairs... more a matter of different experiential planes. Losing your in-laws is still not the same thing as losing your own parents or an immediate blood relative... no matter how close you were to in-laws, they still aren't your parents.

I often wondered along similar paths... why do folks make such a big to do about people dieing, particularly if they are members of the Church and understand the plan of salvation and the deceased was a good or righteous person? It wasn't until it started getting close to me that I could understand the emotions of having someone close to you suddenly being gone. And, the feeling of reverencing the mortal remains of that individual is part of the grieving process. So, in similar fashion, it would feel like defiling the mortal remains of another (even if I don't know them, cuz someone somewhere loved them and would grieve the loss) to take nourishment thereof to preserve my own life.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Well, if coco's around and she's starving, you'd better CYA.

(Just a joke, people! Don't lose your head.)

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

hey, if coco's around and she is starving, we probably better do more than just CYA... she may be considering making some head cheese... So, remember, CYA and heads up!

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Um, could somebody explain to the newbie what CYA means? Coco?

Filter that!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Cover Your *ss -- as in what is falling off in the laughing emoticon you included.

It is a very technical business term about making sure someone else gets blamed for a problem you have caused...

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I know, I just wanted to make Coco say it.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Hey, my lips are gone...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

That hasn't stopped you before...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

At least my brain is still functioning.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

arbilad wrote:
It is true that I have never been that long without food (nor, I imagine, have you). But I have read plenty of stories where people have died from hunger when they could have eaten human flesh. There is a strong aversion to cannibalism built into human nature. In stories that I have read where people have resorted to cannibalism, it has still required a tremendous force of will for them to eat human flesh.

The longest I've been without food is about 72 hours. And then I was still in my normal environment and knew my fast would end soon and the pantry was just in the next room.

When I went through survival school, one of my instructors was a combat vet who had been shot down behind enemy lines and evaded capture for several weeks. Until he found a village from which to steal food, he had gone without food (except for a few insects) for over a week. He told us flat out that if he had happened upon a human body that hadn't been dead for too long, he gladly would have carved off the flesh and probably would have eaten it raw. So again, even though we have a strong aversion to it now, whose to say what would happen if we had been in the Donner party?

-- Edited by Roper at 17:13, 2007-07-10

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I went for about 36 hours without food or water once. It was in the MTC, and things were not very physically stressful, so I don't know how that would measure up.

The story you share from your instructor was interesting. But the question I have to ask is why would a military survival school instructor tell you that? Because he really would have done it out of desperation, or to help get the servicemen and women in his class to think about all possibilities in surviving? How often did Allied prisoners in Japanese POW camps end up resorting to cannibalism to survive? I don't know, but we certainly do not hear much if anything about that actually happening.

edited to correct the italics code around "why"

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 08:22, 2007-07-11

arbilad · Head Chef

if he had happened upon a human body that hadn't been dead for too long

See, even as hungry as your instructor had been, he had standards. If he had come across a human body that had been dead for too long, he wouldn't have eaten it. And why is that? Because his logic told him that his risk of getting violently ill from a long dead body was high. If you have deep seated convictions that cannabilism is wrong, hunger isn't going to totally turn off your thought process.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
The story you share from your instructor was interesting. But the question I have to ask is why would a military survival school instructor tell you that?

Probably to reinforce the image that he was totally bad*** and would do anything to survive. It takes a special kind of obsession to be a survival school instructor.